Shams: Knicks preparing to offer Thibs an extension

[Zenzibar]

We will never ever have a healthy team with him as our coach.

Its a **** miracle Randle has stayed healthy for as long as he has... need a deeper bench for the regular season... not having a backup and actually TRADING his only backup was asinine

Obi Toppin and Pascal Siakam are free agents and Pacers have to pour in some good money into their PF positions.

The Knicks can roll with Jules, and JHart at the 4 for the foreseeable future.

[WaltFrazier]

Thibs brought back that feeling of watching the Knicks in the 90's. Just hardworking scrappy teams that felt like that represented the heart and soul of the city. Unfortunately it also feels like a bit of an experiment as if you actually took a coach from the 90's and just dropped them in 2024. The game has changed and evolved so much since then but Thibs strategies and methods have not.

I don't know how anyone could watch the Spurs of the early 2010's, the Warriors and their run, the current Nuggets and even the Pacers that the Knicks just lost to and then watch Thibs offense and say it makes sense. Brunson has to work so hard to generate offense while other teams just move the ball and bodies and create so much better shots.

The team started the year with no back up power forward and a young team full of guys 6'6 and under but yet we were still playing at the slowest pace in the league. I know there are separate factions of fans here but Brunson, Randle, IQ and RJ all have the ability to generate offense. Despite having all those offensive creators combined with other guys that can handle the ball Brunson was still leading the league in time of possession in October and November.

Thibs' teams have basically had the same style of play since he began coaching. Do people really watch this team and think it can go further playing a slow, grind it out style with an offense based around 6 foot tall scoring guard and Randle taking and making difficult shots with defenses completely focused on them? If Thibs was coaching the Pacers he probably would have slowed down the pace of the team, shortened the rotation and ran almost all of the offense through Haliburton and Siakam which I believe would have made them much easier to guard.

Effort and energy can get you a lot of wins in a long grueling regular season but when everyone is playing with effort and energy in the playoffs does Thibs have the ability to take the team to another level? I just feel like I am watching Mark Jackson coaching the Warriors where he did a great job of creating a defensive identity for the team and instilling confidence in guys like Curry and Thompson but the team still had a ton of untapped potential.

They hired Kerr who sped up the pace, changed the offensive system going from bottom of the league in assists to the top of league while maintaining their great defense, getting more people involved offensively and reducing the minutes of guys like Curry in the regular season.

For the Knicks I see a team full of unselfish hardworking guys that will compete for each other no matter what but I also see one of the ugliest offenses in the league and a defense that falls apart when the pace picks up. Thibs is not a bad coach but I feel like the organization should be very open to exploring other options if they want to go to another level.

The injuries were rough this year and I won't place blame on Thibs for all of that but we can't continuously use injuries as an excuse or pretend that the team was outmatched every time as a reason for all the playoff struggles in the Thibs era. There is room for improvement in many places on the team including coaching.

That's a well thought out post. But it feels like it would be such a drastic move to change coaches now.

In the 2020-21 season which they played in Tampa, Nick Nurse brought Chris Finch in to install a new offense. They had a history together. Nurse and Thibs are not the same but are similarly defense first. It was working well but unfortunately for the Raptors, Minnesota plucked Finch away early in that season.

I wonder if there's any chance Thibs would bring in an offensive assistant and turn the reigns over to him? Someone with a more ball movement offense.

[JayTWill]

Spoiler:

Thibs brought back that feeling of watching the Knicks in the 90's. Just hardworking scrappy teams that felt like that represented the heart and soul of the city. Unfortunately it also feels like a bit of an experiment as if you actually took a coach from the 90's and just dropped them in 2024. The game has changed and evolved so much since then but Thibs strategies and methods have not.

I don't know how anyone could watch the Spurs of the early 2010's, the Warriors and their run, the current Nuggets and even the Pacers that the Knicks just lost to and then watch Thibs offense and say it makes sense. Brunson has to work so hard to generate offense while other teams just move the ball and bodies and create so much better shots.

The team started the year with no back up power forward and a young team full of guys 6'6 and under but yet we were still playing at the slowest pace in the league. I know there are separate factions of fans here but Brunson, Randle, IQ and RJ all have the ability to generate offense. Despite having all those offensive creators combined with other guys that can handle the ball Brunson was still leading the league in time of possession in October and November.

Thibs' teams have basically had the same style of play since he began coaching. Do people really watch this team and think it can go further playing a slow, grind it out style with an offense based around 6 foot tall scoring guard and Randle taking and making difficult shots with defenses completely focused on them? If Thibs was coaching the Pacers he probably would have slowed down the pace of the team, shortened the rotation and ran almost all of the offense through Haliburton and Siakam which I believe would have made them much easier to guard.

Effort and energy can get you a lot of wins in a long grueling regular season but when everyone is playing with effort and energy in the playoffs does Thibs have the ability to take the team to another level? I just feel like I am watching Mark Jackson coaching the Warriors where he did a great job of creating a defensive identity for the team and instilling confidence in guys like Curry and Thompson but the team still had a ton of untapped potential.

They hired Kerr who sped up the pace, changed the offensive system going from bottom of the league in assists to the top of league while maintaining their great defense, getting more people involved offensively and reducing the minutes of guys like Curry in the regular season.

For the Knicks I see a team full of unselfish hardworking guys that will compete for each other no matter what but I also see one of the ugliest offenses in the league and a defense that falls apart when the pace picks up. Thibs is not a bad coach but I feel like the organization should be very open to exploring other options if they want to go to another level.

The injuries were rough this year and I won't place blame on Thibs for all of that but we can't continuously use injuries as an excuse or pretend that the team was outmatched every time as a reason for all the playoff struggles in the Thibs era. There is room for improvement in many places on the team including coaching.

That's a well thought out post. But it feels like it would be such a drastic move to change coaches now.

In the 2020-21 season which they played in Tampa, Nick Nurse brought Chris Finch in to install a new offense. They had a history together. Nurse and Thibs are not the same but are similarly defense first. It was working well but unfortunately for the Raptors, Minnesota plucked Finch away early in that season.

I wonder if there's any chance Thibs would bring in an offensive assistant and turn the reigns over to him? Someone with a more ball movement offense.

I would love for Thibs to bring in a better and more creative offensive mind but i'm not sure why he would change things at this point. I'm not even sure if there isn't already someone who is supposed to have that role on the coaching staff already but Thibs offense has basically been the same since his Chicago Bulls' days. He has always been heavily reliant on ball dominant scoring guards and a slow grind it out pace.

He has had a certain amount of success in this league doing things in certain ways. He had success with Rose carrying the offense on the Bulls. When Rose was not available he used guys like CJ Watson, Nate Robinson and John Lucas Jr in that role.

I didn't follow him in Minnesota and I don't feel like looking it up right now but I believe he replaced Rubio with Jeff Teague. I'm not sure but then he brought in Rose again.

In New York he immediately brought in Rose one more time while Burks was allowed to take on a similar role. The next season he added Kemba Walker while IQ was developed into another small scoring guard. Brunson now has that role and when McBride struggled in that role after the OG trade Burks was brought back to attempt to fill that hole in the bench offense. It's part of the reason I was never too critical of Burks and his shot selection and lack of ball distribution. It is what Thibs offense dictates.

It's funny because in the mic'd up moment you hear him talking about moving the ball, pushing the pace, cutting, trusting the pass and playing with effort and energy but then on the court I see Brunson pounding the air out of the ball while 3-4 guys stand around or the team spending half the shot clock desperately trying to get the ball in his hands. I see Hart desperately trying to push the pace and no one running with him many times or Brunson continuously walking the ball up the court.

I believe Brunson once said during the Roommates podcast mentioned how Thibs has 1000 pages in his playbook as a sign of how dedicated he is to the game but he also said the team had only gotten to page 10 of the book in playful way as if he could not imagine how much time and effort it would take to learn Thibs entire playbook. Unfortunately when you watch the offense it actually looks like they only learned 10 pages of that playbook.

Thibs is notorious for focusing the vast amount of time in his practices and film study on the defensive end. Maybe he is teaching them more on the offensive end and it just needs to be better reinforced but he needs to find a better balance between offense and defense. He has had success on both ends of the court by muddying up the game, controlling the boards, limiting the turnovers but it makes the game so grueling for both teams. He has to find a way to make the game easier for his players while still making the game difficult for the opposing team.

I commend this team for how hard they work and compete for each other and the fans but just watching Brunson trying to carry the offense is exhausting. I can't imagine how he actually feels. Yes the team was short-handed because of injuries for whatever reasons and could use another offensive creator but even when the team was healthy to begin the season with many creators the offense was ugly.

Brunson, Randle, RJ and IQ took turns pounding the air out of the ball while Grimes had to defend everyone from small guards to big wings like Tatum and Barnes and barely touching the ball on offense. Hart complained about not feeling involved in the offense. Mitch has had his complaints. DDV was just standing around for the first few months.

Thibs can't continuously demand such high effort and energy of his players without challenging himself to evolve and be better as a coach. He has to find a way to make it a team game on both ends of the court and not rely on a few guys to carry the offense and other guys to carry the defense. He has to keep everyone involved, engaged and accountable for their actions including himself. If he doesn't he will burn these guys out if he hasn't already and eventually they will tune him out.

[nedleeds]

What you fail to mention is that if Jules was here, JHart will be on the bench playing 25-30 mpg. If OG was available JHart will be on the bench. Our bench has become less than formidable after the injuries.

This is not just games but practices as well. Who runs as the 2nd unit in preparation for these games?

If not for Thibs rotation, we would not have finished 2nd in the East and therefore, not have the fortune of holding game 7 @ home.

What you fail to mention is that Thibs ran Randle into the dirt for 3 years chasing nothing.



But I'm sure we can find a MD on MySpace who says repeated pounding in impact sports doesn't add up.

Your evaluation is MySpace worthy.

Great response. Your next white paper on Elfrid Payton awaits.

[nedleeds]

Spoiler:

Thibs brought back that feeling of watching the Knicks in the 90's. Just hardworking scrappy teams that felt like that represented the heart and soul of the city. Unfortunately it also feels like a bit of an experiment as if you actually took a coach from the 90's and just dropped them in 2024. The game has changed and evolved so much since then but Thibs strategies and methods have not.

I don't know how anyone could watch the Spurs of the early 2010's, the Warriors and their run, the current Nuggets and even the Pacers that the Knicks just lost to and then watch Thibs offense and say it makes sense. Brunson has to work so hard to generate offense while other teams just move the ball and bodies and create so much better shots.

The team started the year with no back up power forward and a young team full of guys 6'6 and under but yet we were still playing at the slowest pace in the league. I know there are separate factions of fans here but Brunson, Randle, IQ and RJ all have the ability to generate offense. Despite having all those offensive creators combined with other guys that can handle the ball Brunson was still leading the league in time of possession in October and November.

Thibs' teams have basically had the same style of play since he began coaching. Do people really watch this team and think it can go further playing a slow, grind it out style with an offense based around 6 foot tall scoring guard and Randle taking and making difficult shots with defenses completely focused on them? If Thibs was coaching the Pacers he probably would have slowed down the pace of the team, shortened the rotation and ran almost all of the offense through Haliburton and Siakam which I believe would have made them much easier to guard.

Effort and energy can get you a lot of wins in a long grueling regular season but when everyone is playing with effort and energy in the playoffs does Thibs have the ability to take the team to another level? I just feel like I am watching Mark Jackson coaching the Warriors where he did a great job of creating a defensive identity for the team and instilling confidence in guys like Curry and Thompson but the team still had a ton of untapped potential.

They hired Kerr who sped up the pace, changed the offensive system going from bottom of the league in assists to the top of league while maintaining their great defense, getting more people involved offensively and reducing the minutes of guys like Curry in the regular season.

For the Knicks I see a team full of unselfish hardworking guys that will compete for each other no matter what but I also see one of the ugliest offenses in the league and a defense that falls apart when the pace picks up. Thibs is not a bad coach but I feel like the organization should be very open to exploring other options if they want to go to another level.

The injuries were rough this year and I won't place blame on Thibs for all of that but we can't continuously use injuries as an excuse or pretend that the team was outmatched every time as a reason for all the playoff struggles in the Thibs era. There is room for improvement in many places on the team including coaching.

That's a well thought out post. But it feels like it would be such a drastic move to change coaches now.

In the 2020-21 season which they played in Tampa, Nick Nurse brought Chris Finch in to install a new offense. They had a history together. Nurse and Thibs are not the same but are similarly defense first. It was working well but unfortunately for the Raptors, Minnesota plucked Finch away early in that season.

I wonder if there's any chance Thibs would bring in an offensive assistant and turn the reigns over to him? Someone with a more ball movement offense.

I would love for Thibs to bring in a better and more creative offensive mind but i'm not sure why he would change things at this point. I'm not even sure if there isn't already someone who is supposed to have that role on the coaching staff already but Thibs offense has basically been the same since his Chicago Bulls' days. He has always been heavily reliant on ball dominant scoring guards and a slow grind it out pace.

He has had a certain amount of success in this league doing things in certain ways. He had success with Rose carrying the offense on the Bulls. When Rose was not available he used guys like CJ Watson, Nate Robinson and John Lucas Jr in that role.

I didn't follow him in Minnesota and I don't feel like looking it up right now but I believe he replaced Rubio with Jeff Teague. I'm not sure but then he brought in Rose again.

In New York he immediately brought in Rose one more time while Burks was allowed to take on a similar role. The next season he added Kemba Walker while IQ was developed into another small scoring guard. Brunson now has that role and when McBride struggled in that role after the OG trade Burks was brought back to attempt to fill that hole in the bench offense. It's part of the reason I was never too critical of Burks and his shot selection and lack of ball distribution. It is what Thibs offense dictates.

It's funny because in the mic'd up moment you hear him talking about moving the ball, pushing the pace, cutting, trusting the pass and playing with effort and energy but then on the court I see Brunson pounding the air out of the ball while 3-4 guys stand around or the team spending half the shot clot desperately trying to get the ball in his hands. I see Hart desperately trying to push the pace and no one running with him many times or Brunson continuously walking the ball up the court.

I believe Brunson once said during the Roommates podcast mentioned how Thibs has 1000 of pages in his playbook as a sign of how dedicated he is to the game but he also said the team had only gotten to page 10 of the book in playful way as if he could not imagine how much time and effort it would take to learn Thibs entire playbook. Unfortunately when you watch the offense it actually looks like they only learned 10 pages of that playbook.

Thibs is notorious for focusing the vast amount of time in his practices and film study on the defensive end. Maybe he is teaching them more on the offensive end it just needs to be better reinforced but he needs to find a better balance between offense and defense. He has had success on both ends of the court by muddying up the game, controlling the boards, limiting the turnovers but it makes the game so grueling for both teams. He has to find a way to make the game easier for his players while still making the game difficult for the opposing team.

I commend this team for how hard they work and compete for each other and the fans but just watching Brunson trying to carry the offense is exhausting. I can't imagine how he actually feels. Yes the team was short-handed because of injuries for whatever reasons and could use another offensive creator but even when the team was healthy to begin the season with many creators the offense was ugly.

Brunson, Randle, RJ and IQ took turns pounding the air out of the ball while Grimes had to defend everyone from small guards to big wings like Tatum and Barnes and barely touching the ball on offense. Hart complained about not feeling involved in the offense. Mitch has had his complaints. DDV was just standing around for the first few months.

Thibs can't continuously demand such high effort and energy of his players without challenging himself to evolve and be better as a coach. He has to find a way to make it a team game on both ends of the court and not rely on a few guys to carry the offense and other guys to carry the defense. He has to keep everyone involved, engaged and accountable for their actions including himself. If he doesn't he will burn these guys out if he hasn't already and eventually they will tune him out.

This is a great post.

Guy who is a defensive guru just put up a 120 defensive rating in a failed playoff run.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/knicks-defensive-rating-in-playoffs-2024

Guy who is a defensive guru just watched TJ McConnell look like Steve Nash.

This was a bad season. We got bounced in the playoff by a lower seed. Our entire starting lineup ended the season injured, as well as several backups.

We have no draft capital that's meaningful. 2 late 1sts that history tells us Thibs will only play if he has no other choice.

What other franchise has such low expectations, that is so scarred and pathetic that they'd prioritizing extending a coach who just had a BAD SEASON?

[KnixtapeH20]

We will never ever have a healthy team with him as our coach.

Its a **** miracle Randle has stayed healthy for as long as he has... need a deeper bench for the regular season... not having a backup and actually TRADING his only backup was asinine

Obi Toppin and Pascal Siakam are free agents and Pacers have to pour in some good money into their PF positions.

The Knicks can roll with Jules, and JHart at the 4 for the foreseeable future.

Josh at the 4 hurt us this playoffs especially against Siakam

We had to double which led to us playing a track meet to open shooters or everyone scrambling to find a man leading to layups in the paint

[Mr_President]

i hate his style but he deserves it

I love what Thibs has done for the culture and identity of this team. Guys play hard. And for 95% of the season played defense.

But oh my god, if we don't get a top tier offensive assistant coach this summer I'm going to lose it.

The Knicks had the 7th best offense in the league during the regular season and the third best offense in the league during the playoffs (after being #1 until game 4 of the Pacers series).

That's after having to revamp the entire offensive philosophy after Randle went down.

I think those numbers come from extremely hot shooting and great individual play from Brunson and others. I've watched our offense play iso-ball and be stagnant for many, many plays then a guy, mainly brunson makes a shot. Credit to our guys. But, you cannot in good faith tell me we run an NBA offense worthy of praise.

[TheGreenArrow]

Read on Twitter

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Nets owners son Folksssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fury]

Read on Twitter

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Nets owners son Folksssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zenzibar]

What you fail to mention is that Thibs ran Randle into the dirt for 3 years chasing nothing.



But I'm sure we can find a MD on MySpace who says repeated pounding in impact sports doesn't add up.

Your evaluation is MySpace worthy.

Great response. Your next white paper on Elfrid Payton awaits.

You're like an ex. Leave the hate and do your life girlfriend.

[jvsimonetti0514]

[MrDollarBills]

Read on Twitter

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Nets owners son Folksssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's not Joe Tsai's son GA that's one of the folks in Netsland who drunk the Purple Kool Aid handed out by Nets management regarding Bridges, and are now upset with Bridges that he isn't a star and wants him gone.

But they/she is right. It's not a secret that Mikal wants to play for the Knicks.

[MrDollarBills]

I think one thing ppl need to understand, Brunson is 100% all in on Thibs. If the teams superstar player is publicly endorsing the guy after a crushing game 7 loss, that means something, especially coming from a guy like Brunson who is very measured in his media comments.

The lack of depth has to be addressed but I don't see Thibs going anywhere. But something has to change because while I don't buy the argument that these injuries are Thibs fault, playing 48 mins is not sustainable.

[Clyde_Style]

I think one thing ppl need to understand, Brunson is 100% all in on Thibs. If the teams superstar player is publicly endorsing the guy after a crushing game 7 loss, that means something, especially coming from a guy like Brunson who is very measured in his media comments.

The lack of depth has to be addressed but I don't see Thibs going anywhere. But something has to change because while I don't buy the argument that these injuries are Thibs fault, playing 48 mins is not sustainable.

The Thibs Paradox is he likes guys who can produce under the duress of a heavy workload, yet he can only find out if a player is that kind of guy by giving him those extended minutes to test them out. It is why he prefers veterans. They've already been stress tested.

He will play a bigger rotation earlier in the season, but he will tend to reduce heading into the playoffs. We did not have the depth left for him to play his preferred 8 guy rotation so he played a 7-8 man rotation with the last men available.

If we had 12 quality players that can be in the rotation at any time, odds are we'd withstand any injuries as long as they are not your top 2-3 players.

My only question is if this FO will keep drafting players to develop or just keep making the kinds of deals that have brought them success these past seasons?

Of our drafted players, Deuce, Grimes, RJ, IQ and Mitch, there's only 2 left and only 1 still standing. We "developed" RJ 5 years and IQ 3 years before trading them which basically says we have no pipeline left to draw upon from past draft picks.

[spree8]

Read on Twitter

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Nets owners son Folksssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol not Nets owner’s son, but this needs to happen. Every basketball fan wants it, and we got the assets. Don’t be a party pooper Marks. LFG

[MrDollarBills]

Also it was put out in the media again that Thibs isn't a "player friendly coach" and is too hands on...you know, basically a coach that gets on guys and pushes them hard.

I don't get it. We've seen full well what happens when a team lets the players run the asylum like over in Brooklyn, how can anyone look at that, then look at the 50 win, #2 seed Knicks that came within one game of making the ECF due to freak injuries, and want anything less than a coach like Thibs and this culture of winning and accountability that has been established? Make it make sense!

It's frustrating to hear this garbage knowing how things go when you let players establish bad cultures that ignore coaching and leadership. I totally agree with some of the minutes stuff and I think Thibs needs to reevaluate some of his methodology because 48 mins a night for Josh Hart is insane regardless, but it's crazy how these narratives get pushed by ESPN. Come on.

[GONYK]

I love what Thibs has done for the culture and identity of this team. Guys play hard. And for 95% of the season played defense.

But oh my god, if we don't get a top tier offensive assistant coach this summer I'm going to lose it.

The Knicks had the 7th best offense in the league during the regular season and the third best offense in the league during the playoffs (after being #1 until game 4 of the Pacers series).

That's after having to revamp the entire offensive philosophy after Randle went down.

I think those numbers come from extremely hot shooting and great individual play from Brunson and others. I've watched our offense play iso-ball and be stagnant for many, many plays then a guy, mainly brunson makes a shot. Credit to our guys. But, you cannot in good faith tell me we run an NBA offense worthy of praise.

Praiseworthiness isn't really an objective metric. Offensive efficiency is, and we maintained the 7th most efficient offense over an 82 game season, half of which was played without Julius Randle. We then followed that up with the 3rd most efficient offense in the playoffs.

Was Brunson on an all-time heater? Sure. But plenty was going on to enable Brunson to make the plays he did as both a scorer and a passer in terms of picks, player movement, and offensive rebounding.

I don't know what effect an offensive coordinator is supposed to have. A more egalitarian offense probably won't be a significantly more effective one, since the one Thibs runs has objectively provided a top 5-10 offense.

[MrDollarBills]

The Knicks had the 7th best offense in the league during the regular season and the third best offense in the league during the playoffs (after being #1 until game 4 of the Pacers series).

That's after having to revamp the entire offensive philosophy after Randle went down.

I think those numbers come from extremely hot shooting and great individual play from Brunson and others. I've watched our offense play iso-ball and be stagnant for many, many plays then a guy, mainly brunson makes a shot. Credit to our guys. But, you cannot in good faith tell me we run an NBA offense worthy of praise.

Praiseworthiness isn't really an objective metric. Offensive efficiency is, and we maintained the 7th most efficient offense over an 82 game season, half of which was played without Julius Randle. We then followed that up with the 3rd most efficient offense in the playoffs.

Was Brunson on an all-time heater? Sure. But plenty was going on to enable Brunson to make the plays he did as both a scorer and a passer in terms of picks, player movement, and offensive rebounding.

I don't know what effect an offensive coordinator is supposed to have. A more egalitarian offense probably won't be a significantly more effective one, since the one Thibs runs has objectively provided a top 5-10 offense.

Also, the onus is on Brunson at times to use his gravity better. Going 1 vs 3 is not good offense and he has to make better decisions, but it's hard to tell him otherwise because this guy goes on insane heaters dropping 40 playing the same way. But I think sometimes he has to evaluate his shot selection.

[MrDollarBills]

Read on Twitter

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Nets owners son Folksssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol not Nets owner’s son, but this needs to happen. Every basketball fan wants it, and we got the assets. Don’t be a party pooper Marks. LFG

Marks is a f*cking tool and so is Joe Tsai. If the Knicks overpay for Bridges I have a feeling that the answer will still be no.

Bridges has to be the one to get this ball rolling and I don't think he has the guts to do it.

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

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Nets owners son Folksssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol not Nets owner’s son, but this needs to happen. Every basketball fan wants it, and we got the assets. Don’t be a party pooper Marks. LFG

Marks is a f*cking tool and so is Joe Tsai. If the Knicks overpay for Bridges I have a feeling that the answer will still be no.

Bridges has to be the one to get this ball rolling and I don't think he has the guts to do it.

This isn't the thread for Mikal talk. Let's get back on track.