The Gradey Dick Thread Part 3

[tecumseh18]

Is he going to play in the summer league? It would be good to see him try to self create and use a pick more. He's a handle away from being a great 6th man.

What's tough is his game just isn't built for summer league. You'd have to really run sets for him, make sure people are aligned on your vision.

I think he should play but I'd be skeptical of how he'd look.

It may depend on how many picks we have (if we can trade Brown for a pick ). I assume the coaches won't want to have too many high value rookie prospects to work with. Gradey was a lottery pick after all. Is there a practice that lottery picks who really showed something in their rookie season don't have to play SL again?

I remember after Norm's first summer league, we on the board were comparing him to Wade. Even after having a good (sometimes epic!) playoff run to the ECF, Norm went to SL again, where he was asked to work on his playmaking. It ... uh ... didn't take. That team wasn't that good, and needed Norm to just score the damn ball. And he never did became a passer.

[MEDIC]

Yeah I'm more speaking to the what we should do, I guess not the realistic one lol. Any team that has RJ as a starter, is probably not going very far, not a shot at him specifically, but he's pretty limited at what he does, and on his way to his 6th year.

I could see RJ in that role later in his career on a contender.

Right now he is on a developing team & is still 4-5 years away from his prime.

It's not like he hasn't performed well in the SL or hasn't been a good fit.

Moving a 2nd overall pick (who is only 23 years old & just averaged 20 ppg) to the bench isn't a good look for the organization.

I am not sure why people are in a hurry to define these young guys. Just let them grow over the next 3 years & see what happens. It's not like the Raps are a contender that needs to make strategic player moves.

Many of us said the same things about Derozan, but with time and time and patience........he helped get us to the ECF. I am hoping RJ can do the same for us..

Sure, I’m all for giving him a chance, it’s not like we can sniff our nose at anyone considering we’re talent starved as it is. He’s a very hard worker and tries really hard.

I’m just not as optimistic as you are when it comes to defensive development. We have a 5 year sample size of RJ not being able to guard his position or really any other position.

So that inherently makes Gradey ever being a starter unlikely as long as RJ remains a starter. Which is fine with me because my expectations aren’t for Gradey to be a starter with this current core but RJ’s defensive issues make very apparent that we need a very good 3&D player at the 2 or 3 hence then making a gamble on Ochai but I don’t think that’s going to cut it.

If Gradey becomea a better defender or scorer than RJ, I'll be surprised.

Gradey is a nice floor spacer & might be a good system player one day, but I think RJ remains the better player throughout his career.

I thnk we see at minimum another 2-3 seasons of BBQ & see where things sit at that point.

Personally, I have kind settled on that idea & plan to just watch these guys grow. I am assuming that is Masai's mindset as well.

I don't think another Kawhi level.player is coming to save us over the next few years.

[LoveMyRaps]

Gradey got a tattoo.

[Reeko]

Strength is really the only thing holding him back at this stage. Of course everything can improve, but I would say that strength and then handles should be his main focus. If he can improve in these two areas, I would like to see him get a lot more on ball reps this coming season.

[Thaddy]

Is he going to play in the summer league? It would be good to see him try to self create and use a pick more. He's a handle away from being a great 6th man.

What's tough is his game just isn't built for summer league. You'd have to really run sets for him, make sure people are aligned on your vision.

I think he should play but I'd be skeptical of how he'd look.

It depends on whether he's shown growth on his body or handles. If he's a bit heavier he could be PF just to give him reps against physical and bigger players.

[Scase]

I could see RJ in that role later in his career on a contender.

Right now he is on a developing team & is still 4-5 years away from his prime.

It's not like he hasn't performed well in the SL or hasn't been a good fit.

Moving a 2nd overall pick (who is only 23 years old & just averaged 20 ppg) to the bench isn't a good look for the organization.

I am not sure why people are in a hurry to define these young guys. Just let them grow over the next 3 years & see what happens. It's not like the Raps are a contender that needs to make strategic player moves.

Many of us said the same things about Derozan, but with time and time and patience........he helped get us to the ECF. I am hoping RJ can do the same for us..

Sure, I’m all for giving him a chance, it’s not like we can sniff our nose at anyone considering we’re talent starved as it is. He’s a very hard worker and tries really hard.

I’m just not as optimistic as you are when it comes to defensive development. We have a 5 year sample size of RJ not being able to guard his position or really any other position.

So that inherently makes Gradey ever being a starter unlikely as long as RJ remains a starter. Which is fine with me because my expectations aren’t for Gradey to be a starter with this current core but RJ’s defensive issues make very apparent that we need a very good 3&D player at the 2 or 3 hence then making a gamble on Ochai but I don’t think that’s going to cut it.

If Gradey becomea a better defender or scorer than RJ, I'll be surprised.

Gradey is a nice floor spacer & might be a good system player one day, but I think RJ remains the better player throughout his career.

I thnk we see at minimum another 2-3 seasons of BBQ & see where things sit at that point.

Personally, I have kind settled on that idea & plan to just watch these guys grow. I am assuming that is Masai's mindset as well.

I don't think another Kawhi level.player is coming to save us over the next few years.

Have you forgotten the last 4-5 years? Shooting and fit, are more important than straight up who is a "better" player. This is the 3pt era, we need spacing and shooters, Jak and Scottie can operate enough in the paint, we don't need a 3rd person clogging it up again.

[MEDIC]

Sure, I’m all for giving him a chance, it’s not like we can sniff our nose at anyone considering we’re talent starved as it is. He’s a very hard worker and tries really hard.

I’m just not as optimistic as you are when it comes to defensive development. We have a 5 year sample size of RJ not being able to guard his position or really any other position.

So that inherently makes Gradey ever being a starter unlikely as long as RJ remains a starter. Which is fine with me because my expectations aren’t for Gradey to be a starter with this current core but RJ’s defensive issues make very apparent that we need a very good 3&D player at the 2 or 3 hence then making a gamble on Ochai but I don’t think that’s going to cut it.

If Gradey becomea a better defender or scorer than RJ, I'll be surprised.

Gradey is a nice floor spacer & might be a good system player one day, but I think RJ remains the better player throughout his career.

I thnk we see at minimum another 2-3 seasons of BBQ & see where things sit at that point.

Personally, I have kind settled on that idea & plan to just watch these guys grow. I am assuming that is Masai's mindset as well.

I don't think another Kawhi level.player is coming to save us over the next few years.

Have you forgotten the last 4-5 years? Shooting and fit, are more important than straight up who is a "better" player. This is the 3pt era, we need spacing and shooters, Jak and Scottie can operate enough in the paint, we don't need a 3rd person clogging it up again.

I toally get that & totally agree with you. Lets see how RJ does at the 3 point line next year. A full season under Darko's system & a full season with his teammates.

3 is super important and so is defense. If I could, I would surround the starters & build the bench with as many Josh Hart type players as possible. I don't think Gradey will ever be that level defender.

[Los_29]

ROTY = worth putting stock in.
All rookie teams = worthless most of the time.

Gradey can still be garbage, but this isn't the fuel to that fire. Also jesus, it's year one, relax lol.

However, there is more and more evidence that this was a good draft class, and doubling down for the play in was a stupid move.

Where is the evidence that this was a strong draft class?

[WuTang_CMB]

Read on Twitter

“I had been waiting to see if he’d hit the shots at the NBA level, just to see if guys would have to spend the energy chasing him around. Now, I’m waiting to see how he fills out his body to add that aspect to getting open. Grinding for space and winning sometimes. Because, if he’s as good as I think he’ll be, then I think a lot of smaller players will have to chase him around. Other 6’7-6’8 guys don’t want to be pursuing a movement shooter all the time. If Gradey puts on weight, he’ll be able to punish either type of defender.”

Eastern Conference Team Scout




Okay, let’s talk about the sexy stats I went looking for.

Simply put, Gradey Dick was sublime as a movement shooter once he hit the rotation. Over the last 40 games of his season, he was 23-51 (45%) on movement threes, and 22-51 (43%) on movement middies. I’ve neatly compiled all the makes, let’s enjoy the watch and then talk about it.

[OakleyDokely]

From Jan 1st on, Gradey was one of the better rookies in the league. His slow start killed him though. The encouraging thing was he got better as the season progressed.


Prior to Jan 1st:
12.3 MIN, 3.5 PPG, .294 FG, .250 3PT

After Jan 1st:
25.2 MIN, 10.8 PPG, .448 FG, .391 3PT

[aminiaturebuddha]

Lively was chosen at #12, just before Dick. And is clearly a better prospect.

Gradey has a special skill that looks like it could be elite, and an interest in doing other things on the court. He has BBIQ, earning him a very public kiss by our superstar. His youth alone makes on excited for his future. I wouldn't take Podz over him, for sure. JJJ would have been a fun pick after watching Fred walk, bringing positive energy back to the team and allowing us to spend the MLE on someone other than Dennis.

I think I'm a bit confused by what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that JJJ would have been a point guard on the Raptors?

Well, he's a combo guard. Scottie and Pascal (at the beginning of the season) do a lot of "point guard" stuff.

I was always impressed by how the Raptors played without a proper point guard after Fred went down in the 2022 Sixers series. I've sorta wanted them to go in an all-big-all-the-time direction since then. If RJ can stay at the 2 and we get a proper OG-esque 3, we can stop being pushed around by bigger teams.

Jaime Jaquez? I don't see combo guard at all. He's more of small forward than anything. Basically all of his minutes this year with the Heat were there. And at UCLA he played either SF or PF most of the time.

[will]

Gradey Reed Dick.

Please say the Reed.

[ForeverTFC]

I think I'm a bit confused by what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that JJJ would have been a point guard on the Raptors?

Well, he's a combo guard. Scottie and Pascal (at the beginning of the season) do a lot of "point guard" stuff.

I was always impressed by how the Raptors played without a proper point guard after Fred went down in the 2022 Sixers series. I've sorta wanted them to go in an all-big-all-the-time direction since then. If RJ can stay at the 2 and we get a proper OG-esque 3, we can stop being pushed around by bigger teams.

Jaime Jaquez? I don't see combo guard at all. He's more of small forward than anything. Basically all of his minutes this year with the Heat were there. And at UCLA he played either SF or PF most of the time.

Yeah, JJJ is a forward. Also, as someone who loved watching him at UCLA, I was shocked at how well he was shooting the 3 to start the season. There was no reason to think that this wasn't an outlier (very similar to Scottie's hot start). Well, he hit 29% from 3 after January 1st, after starting the season at 37%.

JJJ is a great connector who can makes good decisions in the offense and plays good defense. I love him as a player but he is not the guy you need around a Scottie Barnes led team. Again, of all players picked after Dick, the only player who I think you can argue could have been a good pick is Podz (and I'm not sure I agree long term as I see Dick's ceiling being higher). I know everyone is in love with Keyonte, but do you really want a guy shooting the 3 at 33% at the point with Scottie? I know his AST:TO was great for a Rookie and he is a good FT shooter, but I'd much rather start with not having to hope a guy that does other things turns into a shooter for once after a decade.

For me, the Dick pick was a clear signal from Masai and Bobby that they have changed course and will be rebuilding in a new direction. For all the talk about them being stubborn and slow to act, I don't think enough is made of how drastically they remade what they want this team to be with the Darko hiring, the Dick pick, the Olynyk signing, and the IQ trade. One thing for sure, they've completely wedded themselves to a team built around Scottie Barnes, for better or worse.

[Tor_Raps]

I'm really excited about his development. I admit I laughed at any Klay Thompson comparisons but there is a path for him to get there with a lot of hard work. Obviously I'm not going to expect him to reach that comparison but hoping he can work on getting much stronger and on his ball handling.

As of now, his and RJ's defense will never allow them to start together on the wings. Maybe one of them takes that next big step on the defensive end.

[ForeverTFC]

I'm really excited about his development. I admit I laughed at any Klay Thompson comparisons but there is a path for him to get there with a lot of hard work. Obviously I'm not going to expect him to reach that comparison but hoping he can work on getting much stronger and on his ball handling.

As of now, his and RJ's defense will never allow them to start together on the wings. Maybe one of them takes that next big step on the defensive end.

RJ can't be a permanent solution on this team, he just doesn't fit with any of the core players we want to build with. Hopefully he has an amazing season next year and we can flip him for value.

[Tor_Raps]

I'm really excited about his development. I admit I laughed at any Klay Thompson comparisons but there is a path for him to get there with a lot of hard work. Obviously I'm not going to expect him to reach that comparison but hoping he can work on getting much stronger and on his ball handling.

As of now, his and RJ's defense will never allow them to start together on the wings. Maybe one of them takes that next big step on the defensive end.

RJ can't be a permanent solution on this team, he just doesn't fit with any of the core players we want to build with. Hopefully he has an amazing season next year and we can flip him for value.

RJ said in his exit interview that he needs to work on his 3 point shot and defense in the offseason. These are the skills that will allow him to play off the ball with other ball dominant players. The reason why he didn't do as great with the Knicks is because he lacks those skills.

He definitely will have to have those skills on lock unless he becomes a star in his role or becomes a 6th man. He's only 23 friggin years old so I'm actually excited to see how he develops. If he remains somewhat the same then I agree with you, he just wouldn't be good enough to be as ball dominant as he is.

[JB7]

I'm really excited about his development. I admit I laughed at any Klay Thompson comparisons but there is a path for him to get there with a lot of hard work. Obviously I'm not going to expect him to reach that comparison but hoping he can work on getting much stronger and on his ball handling.

As of now, his and RJ's defense will never allow them to start together on the wings. Maybe one of them takes that next big step on the defensive end.

RJ can't be a permanent solution on this team, he just doesn't fit with any of the core players we want to build with. Hopefully he has an amazing season next year and we can flip him for value.

RJ said in his exit interview that he needs to work on his 3 point shot and defense in the offseason. These are the skills that will allow him to play off the ball with other ball dominant players. The reason why he didn't do as great with the Knicks is because he lacks those skills.

He definitely will have to have those skills on lock unless he becomes a star in his role or becomes a 6th man. He's only 23 friggin years old so I'm actually excited to see how he develops. If he remains somewhat the same then I agree with you, he just wouldn't be good enough to be as ball dominant as he is.

Aside from continuing to develop his 3pt shooting, and defense, it is his ability to get to the rim and score that is really so valuable to the team. They don't have the slashers from the wing position, and they are also critical in applying pressure on the rim to open up shooters, and vice versa (shooters opening up lanes for RJ to drive).

[ForeverTFC]

RJ can't be a permanent solution on this team, he just doesn't fit with any of the core players we want to build with. Hopefully he has an amazing season next year and we can flip him for value.

RJ said in his exit interview that he needs to work on his 3 point shot and defense in the offseason. These are the skills that will allow him to play off the ball with other ball dominant players. The reason why he didn't do as great with the Knicks is because he lacks those skills.

He definitely will have to have those skills on lock unless he becomes a star in his role or becomes a 6th man. He's only 23 friggin years old so I'm actually excited to see how he develops. If he remains somewhat the same then I agree with you, he just wouldn't be good enough to be as ball dominant as he is.

Aside from continuing to develop his 3pt shooting, and defense, it is his ability to get to the rim and score that is really so valuable to the team. They don't have the slashers from the wing position, and they are also critical in applying pressure on the rim to open up shooters, and vice versa (shooters opening up lanes for RJ to drive).

Totally get that. But if he gives it away with his defense and lack of shooting, then it's just neutral value. I'm hopeful the shooting jump is real as the increase in % seems to have come somewhat from the types of shots we are getting him to take. But I just don't see how he can fit in defensively even if he puts an entire off-season into it; you can't work on length, foot speed, or lateral quickness. Similar to how Scottie needs shooter to thrive around, IQ needs defenders that can hide him and keep him off ball.

[Clay Davis]

Gradey Reed Dick.

Please say the Reed.

*rizz* *rizz* Gray-Gray Reed-Dick *rizz* *rizz*

[Scase]

If Gradey becomea a better defender or scorer than RJ, I'll be surprised.

Gradey is a nice floor spacer & might be a good system player one day, but I think RJ remains the better player throughout his career.

I thnk we see at minimum another 2-3 seasons of BBQ & see where things sit at that point.

Personally, I have kind settled on that idea & plan to just watch these guys grow. I am assuming that is Masai's mindset as well.

I don't think another Kawhi level.player is coming to save us over the next few years.

Have you forgotten the last 4-5 years? Shooting and fit, are more important than straight up who is a "better" player. This is the 3pt era, we need spacing and shooters, Jak and Scottie can operate enough in the paint, we don't need a 3rd person clogging it up again.

I toally get that & totally agree with you. Lets see how RJ does at the 3 point line next year. A full season under Darko's system & a full season with his teammates.

3 is super important and so is defense. If I could, I would surround the starters & build the bench with as many Josh Hart type players as possible. I don't think Gradey will ever be that level defender.

Yeah I agree, he's not likely ever to reach that level, but I don't see RJ doing it either. He's very much a DD clone, and 5 seasons of evidence doesn't give me high hopes of that changing dramatically. If RJ can get his 3p shooting to 35/36% consistently, I'd be more inclined to keep him in the SL, but he's too inconsistent from season to season. And I would rather a guy shooting 40% from 3 with below average defence, than a guy shooting 34% from 3 with at best average defence. RJ has his place on a team, and I'm not advocating for burying him on the bench, but I do not see such a limited player as a starting quality player without having a truly elite skill set, and as good as his ability to drive is, it's too easy to shut down by a coordinated defence.

ROTY = worth putting stock in.
All rookie teams = worthless most of the time.

Gradey can still be garbage, but this isn't the fuel to that fire. Also jesus, it's year one, relax lol.

However, there is more and more evidence that this was a good draft class, and doubling down for the play in was a stupid move.

Where is the evidence that this was a strong draft class?

I didn't say strong, I said good. The majority of the top 15 drafted players are looking like solid NBA players, and basing it off of ws/48, the 2023 class is almost identical to the 2021 class, which is regarded as a very good draft. Same for BPM.

WS/48 2023 vs 2021
0.053 vs 0.056

BPM 2023 vs 2021
-1.76 vs -1.74

The 2021 draft blows the 2023 draft out of the water for VORP. But they have massive outliers like Cade/Mobley/Barnes.