Lively last 6: +103 Mavs +25

[Baz]

I like him coming off the bench but he needs 30+ minutes a game

[UcanUwill]

Everyone ragged on them at the time for tanking into that 10th spot, but it paid dividends.

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

[Handlez]

Young man plays with passion and high energy.

A big that can gallop end to end like a Jokic racehorse is a hot commodity.

He doesn't worry about offensive touches and plays his role perfectly.

[HotelVitale]

Everyone ragged on them at the time for tanking into that 10th spot, but it paid dividends.

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

You missed the part where their pick was top-10 protected and they would've almost certainly lost it if they finished even one draft slot higher. I also disagree that we never know how these series play out--the Mavs weren't very good last year, didn't have the right recipe or depth to make a real PO run, Luka or not. They planned on becoming a dangerous PO team for most of the season and it just didn't work out, and that's when they made a rational decision that the pick as a player or trade asset was worth tanking a few games for.

There was a good chance that wouldn't work out all that well--most rookies don't have the impact Lively has had--but they made the decision and took the risk and it payed off big. (Though it took some other good gambles paying off too, like PJ and Kyrie's health and DJJ and Gafford). IMO this is the exact right time to reocngize and celebrate that their risk paid off, and the exact wrong time to go back and say 'I don't know, maybe a 1 in 1000 chance at making a Finals run last year was better than the current better than 1 in 2 chance they have this year.'

[BlazersBroncos]

He is an absolutley ideal C for what Luka does. A elite rim roller who can finish above the rim at an elite rate - while providing excellent defense.

I think he ends up basically a better version of Jarrett Allen. Or Tyson Chandler with 50% better offense. Something like that.

His fit with Luka and even Irving on offense is gold.

[Chuck Everett]

Lively is going to make all-star teams at some point. All-Defense is a no-brainer. Mavs were blessed teams passed on him. Said it back in March 2023. No way a kid this big and talented falls like he does. Kudos to JKidd for playing him all year, so he was ready when it matters most.

The Walker Kessler thing is interesting because I am not sure what you can infer from his experience due to Utah going ham to tank to keep their lottery picks. That's not the best environment for him to develop in. His minutes are weird and the front office wanted to lose, so if he played well defensively, he gets benched. Tough situation to be in.

[Astaluego]

He is an absolutley ideal C for what Luka does. A elite rim roller who can finish above the rim at an elite rate - while providing excellent defense.

I think he ends up basically a better version of Jarrett Allen. Or Tyson Chandler with 50% better offense. Something like that.

His fit with Luka and even Irving on offense is gold.

His mobility and speed stand out for his size, I project him as a taller Claxton and better touch....and it is said that he could develop a decent 3, maybe we will see something of that next year

[Swish1906]

The draft had pretty early somewhat of a top-9 set and the Mavs/Lively draft rumors popped up pretty fast and early. I think the Mavs specifically tanked for Lively…because of the fit/ team need

[Dirk]

Lively jumps fast twice. He'd go number 1 in the draft if Vlad was picking.

[BlazersBroncos]

Lively is going to make all-star teams at some point. All-Defense is a no-brainer. Mavs were blessed teams passed on him. Said it back in March 2023. No way a kid this big and talented falls like he does. Kudos to JKidd for playing him all year, so he was ready when it matters most.

The Walker Kessler thing is interesting because I am not sure what you can infer from his experience due to Utah going ham to tank to keep their lottery picks. That's not the best environment for him to develop in. His minutes are weird and the front office wanted to lose, so if he played well defensively, he gets benched. Tough situation to be in.

I think Walker is a tier or two below Lively and I am quite high on Kessler.

But the fluidity of movement DLJ brings is on another tier - Walker is absurdly talented protecting the rim (Always touted his hand-eye coordination - he can block with either hand equally well, its a special trait) but Lively is much less stiff when asked to move away from the basket.

Think Lively has the frame to get surprisingly big as well.

[UcanUwill]

Everyone ragged on them at the time for tanking into that 10th spot, but it paid dividends.

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

You missed the part where their pick was top-10 protected and they would've almost certainly lost it if they finished even one draft slot higher. I also disagree that we never know how these series play out--the Mavs weren't very good last year, didn't have the right recipe or depth to make a real PO run, Luka or not. They planned on becoming a dangerous PO team for most of the season and it just didn't work out, and that's when they made a rational decision that the pick as a player or trade asset was worth tanking a few games for.

There was a good chance that wouldn't work out all that well--most rookies don't have the impact Lively has had--but they made the decision and took the risk and it payed off big. (Though it took some other good gambles paying off too, like PJ and Kyrie's health and DJJ and Gafford). IMO this is the exact right time to reocngize and celebrate that their risk paid off, and the exact wrong time to go back and say 'I don't know, maybe a 1 in 1000 chance at making a Finals run last year was better than the current better than 1 in 2 chance they have this year.'

Yeah, ok, good points, I did forget they would have lost the pick. Yes, I used to think the same way, and probably still do, but ridiculous tanking triggers me more than before, so I double question the decision that in a long run paid off.

[tsherkin]

Young man plays with passion and high energy.

A big that can gallop end to end like a Jokic racehorse is a hot commodity.

He doesn't worry about offensive touches and plays his role perfectly.

Nice description.

He really is a quality hustle player. Wicked physical tools, sunk right into his role. It's good stuff.

[CptCrunch]

Lively was the RSCI #2 in his class. Had a small role at Duke. Luckily didn't drop enough to land on a good team.

[jym85]

Everyone ragged on them at the time for tanking into that 10th spot, but it paid dividends.

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

the pick was only top 10 protected
11th pick and down would have gone to the Knicks. Terrifying going into the draft lottery thinking about that small chance someone would jump us

[HotelVitale]

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

You missed the part where their pick was top-10 protected and they would've almost certainly lost it if they finished even one draft slot higher. I also disagree that we never know how these series play out--the Mavs weren't very good last year, didn't have the right recipe or depth to make a real PO run, Luka or not. They planned on becoming a dangerous PO team for most of the season and it just didn't work out, and that's when they made a rational decision that the pick as a player or trade asset was worth tanking a few games for.

There was a good chance that wouldn't work out all that well--most rookies don't have the impact Lively has had--but they made the decision and took the risk and it payed off big. (Though it took some other good gambles paying off too, like PJ and Kyrie's health and DJJ and Gafford). IMO this is the exact right time to reocngize and celebrate that their risk paid off, and the exact wrong time to go back and say 'I don't know, maybe a 1 in 1000 chance at making a Finals run last year was better than the current better than 1 in 2 chance they have this year.'

Yeah, ok, good points, I did forget they would have lost the pick. Yes, I used to think the same way, and probably still do, but ridiculous tanking triggers me more than before, so I double question the decision that in a long run paid off.

Well I aint your therapist but if I can offer this observation--based on some of your posts across different threads, it seems like you're generally feeling a 'people don't have good morals and society is falling apart' thing at the moment, and I don't think you have to project that onto sports. Team culture is a real thing, but I think it's safe to say that coaches, teams, and players understand morale for their team better than we do and know what will and won't effect culture in their own camps. And to not assume that everything that looks like 'tanking' means immediately sending shockwaves through an organization that winning is meaningless and players shouldn't try.

It's all about managing that and knowing how and when it's okay to do what, and it does seem a little bizarre and extremist to say that tanking a few games inevitably dooms a team's morale or has awful long term consequences. (Especially when we're talking about a very confident Dallas team already exceeding expectations despite not having greatly increased their overall talent.)

[Johnny Firpo]

Everyone ragged on them at the time for tanking into that 10th spot, but it paid dividends.

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

Mavs didn't control their fate, that's why they tanked the last couple games. They didn't throw away the entire season, why would you say that? It was 2 games, and actually, you could argue that they would have thrown away the entire season if the Knicks gets the pick.Now that would have been throwing away the season.

[BarbaGrizz]

Most successful tank for a 10th pick…

I also think he should have went earlier in the draft with his Tyson Chandler light potential + high character.

Why would you say Tyson Chandler 'light'? He's on his way to surpassing Tyson Chandler, if you're going to give him a back handed compliment don't hide behind the mavs logo. He's either Tyson Chandler heavy, or Tyson is Lively Light.

Tyson is a former DPOY, starter on a champion team, All-Star, 3 times All-Defense team and 1 time All-NBA 3rd team.Waaaay too soon for this.

[Scalabrine]

Top 50 isn't all that absurd as it looks.

ESPNs top 50 Oct 2023:
50: Jarrett Allen
49: Ayton
48: LaMelo
47: Wemby
46: Middleton
45: Randle
44: McCollum

Who on that list is he better than?

[dygaction]

Everyone ragged on them at the time for tanking into that 10th spot, but it paid dividends.

Was there no way Lively drops to them even if they do not tank? Or maybe they could have traded up a few spots? I understand what they did and it is a reality of the broken league, but I am still not a fan of tanking last 2 games of the season, thats frankly still insulting, especially when you have top 5 player in the world and never know how these series could play out.

Lively wasn't can't miss prospect, if they really believed in him, I am not convinced throwing entire season was the only way to get him.

Mavs didn't control their fate, that's why they tanked the last couple games. They didn't throw away the entire season, why would you say that? It was 2 games, and actually, you could argue that they would have thrown away the entire season if the Knicks gets the pick.Now that would have been throwing away the season.

Mavs' pick to NYK was a top 10 protected, and they got the #10 pick by missing the play-in.
Lively was not projected that high so not only Mavs did not trade up, they actually traded down.
1. Mavs used #10 to pick Carson Wallace for OKC, and asked OKC to pick Lively for them at #12 and a $17M trade exception.
2. Mavs completed a trade using the $17M trade exception with the Kings to acquire Richaun Holmes and the draft rights to Olivier-Maxence Prosper, who was selected using the 24th pick.
3. Mavs agreed to a pick swap with OKC who then offered a 2024 first-round pick to facilitate Mavs to get Daniel Gaffrod with Richaun Holmes from WAS.

A #10 pick saved from NYK by tanking a game together with a future pick swap with OKC landed Mavs Lively II, Gafford, and OMax.

[Capn'O]

He or Cason Wallace would have been helpful. Real helpful.