Current Jokic or Prime Steph Curry? Who was the more impactful player?

[SelfishPlayer]

This is Kevin Durant getting open fast break dunks in the NBA finals cause of Steph Curry.

Plays like that was all I could think about back then when people like Skip would say that Durant was better than LeBron.

[Mogspan]

STOP using anti-Steph language!

Instead of “he struggles getting his own against elite playoff D,” say, “GRAVITY”

Instead of “he’s played with more talent than anyone,” say, “GRAVITY”

Instead of “he’s physically incapable of having defensive impact,” say, “GRAVITY”

Instead of “he choked a 3-1 lead in the Finals with a team capable of winning playoff series without him,” say, “he slipped in a puddle 6 weeks earlier.”

[playoffs]

Half of Jokić’s offense doesn’t show up in the box score. Because he’s a playmaking center who doesn’t dominate the ball, you can surround him with athletic shooters.

Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić and should have more titles than 4 tbh. Jokić with the caliber of teammates of peak Curry I don’t think would even lose games. He’s certainly not losing 3 games in a row to an inferior team in the Finals. I’ll tell you that much.

Steph isn’t as good as Joker, and that’s ok! He’s only 6’2” and just can’t have the same level of impact as a 7’, 300-lbs. titan. He’s a very good player who’s played with hall of famer after hall of famer and an FMVP-caliber sixth man. Jokić is a true all-timer who’s played with a guy whose greatest accolade is being Second Team All-Rookie.

Literally half of Golden State's game plan is to play 4 on 3 when Steph is doubled (or tripled) off the ball, which does not show up in Steph's boxscore.

Also, what "way more talent" did Steph play with in 2022 that was so superior to Jokic's?

I'm a big fan of Jokic and absolutely think he will be an all time great when it's all said and done, but there's no need to try to minimize Steph's impact to make that point.

[tsherkin]

Also, what "way more talent" did Steph play with in 2022 that was so superior to Jokic's?

Draymond comes to mind. Having the best defense in the league comes to mind.

You're right, there's no real need to minimize Steph, because he is an incredible player. But Golden State's defensive tool set was much, much better than Denver's.

[playoffs]

Also, what "way more talent" did Steph play with in 2022 that was so superior to Jokic's?

Draymond comes to mind. Having the best defense in the league comes to mind.

You're right, there's no real need to minimize Steph, because he is an incredible player. But Golden State's defensive tool set was much, much better than Denver's.

I mean, sure, Draymond provides a defensive dimension that Denver doesn't have. But on the whole, would you rather have Wiggins or playoff Jamal Murray as your second option on offense. I think it's ludicrous to say that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was superior to Jokic's 2023 supporting cast.

[tsherkin]

I mean, sure, Draymond provides a defensive dimension that Denver doesn't have. But on the whole, would you rather have Wiggins or playoff Jamal Murray as your second option on offense. I think it's ludicrous to say that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was superior to Jokic's 2023 supporting cast.

Wiggins wasn't really his second option, though. It was more Klay (when he was healthy) and Good Poole, especially in the playoffs.

I think it's not ludicrous to suggest that the supporting casts are on a similar level, as long as you don't oddly fixate only on offense. Golden State was the best defense in the league in 2022. That didn't happen because of Steph. That happened because of the remainder of the roster. That's a reflection of his supporting cast.

[Lalouie]

this is a really good question and it allows for a lot of creativity on our part.

what are we talking about, "impactful"

are we talking about the "generic" curry vs the "generic" jokic"
the generic curry changed players' perception of the 3. he popularized it in a way that changed how everyone, fans/media/players, view the game and how it is played today

but the question is PEAK curry versus PEAK jokic. this becomes specific. PEAK jokic is current jokic making his teammates better, like literally. he has to carry that team even when they fail,,,,and they DID. and we saw just how much he has to carry,,it is fresh in our minds.

PEAK curry, not generic curry, played with peak klay, peak dray, peak splash brothers, and peak gsw with peak gsw bench in general

what does PEAK jokic have to work with in comparison. well, what he has is,,,,,,,he literally has to do everything for denver and without him there a gaping bottomless pit of a hole. so jokic's IMPACT is greater

[playoffs]

I mean, sure, Draymond provides a defensive dimension that Denver doesn't have. But on the whole, would you rather have Wiggins or playoff Jamal Murray as your second option on offense. I think it's ludicrous to say that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was superior to Jokic's 2023 supporting cast.

Wiggins wasn't really his second option, though. It was more Klay (when he was healthy) and Good Poole, especially in the playoffs.

I think it's not ludicrous to suggest that the supporting casts are on a similar level, as long as you don't oddly fixate only on offense. Golden State was the best defense in the league in 2022. That didn't happen because of Steph. That happened because of the remainder of the roster. That's a reflection of his supporting cast.

Yes, but the poster I originally responded to said that "Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić", which may be true for the 2 KD rings, but is absolutely not true for 2022, and was only true in 2014-2016 because building the system around Steph allowed Klay and Draymond to break out and flourish in a way that would've been unlikely to work in a different context.

[tsherkin]

Yes, but the poster I originally responded to said that "Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić", which may be true for the 2 KD rings, but is absolutely not true for 2022, and was only true in 2014-2016 because building the system around Steph allowed Klay and Draymond to break out and flourish in a way that would've been unlikely to work in a different context.

Sure, but you quoted me and so I responded to what you said, since you were responding to my remarks. The defensive talent on Golden State dramatically eclipsed what Denver was working with. To at least some degree, that evens out differences in their supporting cast's offensive talent.

[playoffs]

Yes, but the poster I originally responded to said that "Curry has played with way, way more talent than Jokić", which may be true for the 2 KD rings, but is absolutely not true for 2022, and was only true in 2014-2016 because building the system around Steph allowed Klay and Draymond to break out and flourish in a way that would've been unlikely to work in a different context.

Sure, but you quoted me and so I responded to what you said, since you were responding to my remarks. The defensive talent on Golden State dramatically eclipsed what Denver was working with. To at least some degree, that evens out differences in their supporting cast's offensive talent.

Um, no. You quoted my response to Mogspan in which I took exception to his claim that Steph played with way more talent than Jokic. I never claimed that the opposite was true and never disputed your remarks about the defense. The only thing I said was that it was false to claim that, on the whole, Steph had a superior supporting cast in 2022.

[tsherkin]

The only thing I said was that it was false to claim that, on the whole, Steph had a superior supporting cast in 2022.

And I disagree. I think that argument CAN be made. I don't know if I'd personally sell it, but the difference in defense at least makes up for the difference in offense, which leaves it a contestable notion. The Warriors were killer on D. The Nuggets were not, though they were also better on offense.

Yes, we agree that it's hyperbolic to claim that it's super clear that the Warriors were dramatically superior or whatever. But it's a defensible point that they were a better cast. Draymond at the time was better than anyone other than Jokic on the Nuggets, and by a lot. Just not as a scoring threat.

[lessthanjake]

To me, the 2022 Warriors and 2023 Nuggets supporting casts are about even. Both are not the type of supporting cast you’d actually expect to win a championship with. As great as Jokic and Steph were, both teams needed guys playing well above their level in the playoffs to actually win a title (notably Murray in 2023 and Wiggins in 2022). And, unsurprisingly, both teams weren’t good enough in other years when they didn’t get that sort of overperformance.

If we are instead comparing the 2022 Warriors to the 2024 Nuggets, then I think that goes to the 2022 Warriors, for the simple reason that the 2022 Warriors had a substantially better bench than the 2024 Nuggets have. Not to mention that, at least in the playoffs, the 2022 Warriors had the aforementioned supporting cast overperformance, while the 2024 Nuggets decidedly did not.

[Onus]

Also, what "way more talent" did Steph play with in 2022 that was so superior to Jokic's?

Draymond comes to mind. Having the best defense in the league comes to mind.

You're right, there's no real need to minimize Steph, because he is an incredible player. But Golden State's defensive tool set was much, much better than Denver's.

If Denver wants more defense I'm sure they could trade MPJ for Matisse Thybulle to make their defense better, but then what happens to Joker's offensive numbers when that happens?

[Onus]

this is a really good question and it allows for a lot of creativity on our part.

what are we talking about, "impactful"

are we talking about the "generic" curry vs the "generic" jokic"
the generic curry changed players' perception of the 3. he popularized it in a way that changed how everyone, fans/media/players, view the game and how it is played today

but the question is PEAK curry versus PEAK jokic. this becomes specific. PEAK jokic is current jokic making his teammates better, like literally. he has to carry that team even when they fail,,,,and they DID. and we saw just how much he has to carry,,it is fresh in our minds.

PEAK curry, not generic curry, played with peak klay, peak dray, peak splash brothers, and peak gsw with peak gsw bench in general

what does PEAK jokic have to work with in comparison. well, what he has is,,,,,,,he literally has to do everything for denver and without him there a gaping bottomless pit of a hole. so jokic's IMPACT is greater

I'm not sure this year's playoff jokic was peak jokic. His 3 ball was missing and really led to the demise of their offense as the Wolves basically let Jokic shoot taking away a lot of actions. Last year he was hitting fallaway 3s in ADs face, and if he was able to hit those again this year I think they beat the Wolves.

[tsherkin]

If Denver wants more defense I'm sure they could trade MPJ for Matisse Thybulle to make their defense better, but then what happens to Joker's offensive numbers when that happens?

They'd obviously have to think about who they specifically added. If you JUST add defense, then you're also harming your offense. And the offensive contributions from his team have already been pretty inconsistent this postseason. So it's a challenge and a juggling act, for sure, as it always is.

[Onus]

If Denver wants more defense I'm sure they could trade MPJ for Matisse Thybulle to make their defense better, but then what happens to Joker's offensive numbers when that happens?

They'd obviously have to think about who they specifically added. If you JUST add defense, then you're also harming your offense. And the offensive contributions from his team have already been pretty inconsistent this postseason. So it's a challenge and a juggling act, for sure, as it always is.

I mean we were able to turn a 28 year old bouncing around the gleague and turned him into a weapon. Now we're propping him up to be this excellent bench player. And that's the difference for Steph, he turns "JUST ADD DEFENSE" into a weapon.

[tsherkin]

I mean we were able to turn a 28 year old bouncing around the gleague and turned him into a weapon. Now we're propping him up to be this excellent bench player. And that's the difference for Steph, he turns "JUST ADD DEFENSE" into a weapon.

Steph is an excellent player. Their coaching staff and management have also had a lot of success adding pieces around him. Joker does the same, but Denver has been struggling a little to add the pieces necessary for extended dominance.

[Onus]

I mean we were able to turn a 28 year old bouncing around the gleague and turned him into a weapon. Now we're propping him up to be this excellent bench player. And that's the difference for Steph, he turns "JUST ADD DEFENSE" into a weapon.

Steph is an excellent player. Their coaching staff and management have also had a lot of success adding pieces around him. Joker does the same, but Denver has been struggling a little to add the pieces necessary for extended dominance.

I agree the Nuggets only went 7 deep this year. They needed an extra big to replace Jeff Green just to spell some minutes for Joker and Gordon. They really needed Zeke to step up.

[tsherkin]

I mean we were able to turn a 28 year old bouncing around the gleague and turned him into a weapon. Now we're propping him up to be this excellent bench player. And that's the difference for Steph, he turns "JUST ADD DEFENSE" into a weapon.

Steph is an excellent player. Their coaching staff and management have also had a lot of success adding pieces around him. Joker does the same, but Denver has been struggling a little to add the pieces necessary for extended dominance.

I agree the Nuggets only went 7 deep this year. They needed an extra big to replace Jeff Green just to spell some minutes for Joker and Gordon. They really needed Zeke to step up.

Absolutely.

[dhsilv2]

Also, what "way more talent" did Steph play with in 2022 that was so superior to Jokic's?

Draymond comes to mind. Having the best defense in the league comes to mind.

You're right, there's no real need to minimize Steph, because he is an incredible player. But Golden State's defensive tool set was much, much better than Denver's.

I mean, sure, Draymond provides a defensive dimension that Denver doesn't have. But on the whole, would you rather have Wiggins or playoff Jamal Murray as your second option on offense. I think it's ludicrous to say that Steph's supporting cast in 2022 was superior to Jokic's 2023 supporting cast.

I would rather have the number 1 defense in the league when I have Curry or Jokic already on my team. There aren't many players by themselves I can even think of I'd consider taking over just knowing i'll have a defense that good. Peak Lebron types aside of course.