How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? UPDATE: TATUM BEING CARRIED TO GOLD TOO

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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#41 » by Scottie Pimpin » Fri May 24, 2024 4:12 pm

doogie_hauser wrote:Feels good actually (disregarding his 36 point and all round terrific performance in game 1 of the ECFs)

Unlike many other franchises/teams were are not obsessed/fixated on one player's stats and legacy.

We are only aiming to win bring back to back to Boston championship number 18, and the fact Tatum has not being at his optimal form so far can only be a good thing. The Celtics organisation or Jayson himself didn't place him on this pedestal btw, that was the media's burden to automatically assume he would be another Kobe/Wade etc


It would be 7 if you live in the same world as everyone else. No one takes those 11 championships from 1957 to 1969 seriously.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#42 » by srhcan » Fri May 24, 2024 4:17 pm

Godymas wrote:Tatum has not been good this playoffs. All efficiency has been down, he's been making bone headed mistakes, he's kind of been folding under some of the expectations this year. Jaylen Brown has been outperforming him so far in the ECF, Derrick White has been a better player overall for the playoffs the role players have really been stepping up overall. Really like what I've seen from Kornet, Pritchard, Hauser. Jrue has been really good this playoffs, Al Horford has been massively outperforming his age, and JB has been making some of the most important buckets. It really feels like if JB's shot is falling the Celtics are unbeatable. All of this with Porzingis still waiting to hop back in.

It makes me think of the more classic "superstar" carried teams. The LeBron Cavs, Butler Heat, Jokic Nuggets, Giannis Bucks, you KNOW exactly who is going to win their team the game. Like yes, they have guys behind them (less so for LeBron, especially in 2018), but their Robins are true Robins. Middleton, Murray, Bam/Herro, etc. they have their games, but at no point do you feel there is a loss of who's team it truly is. Clearly the if these teams win the FMVP is very likely to go to Jokic, Giannis, Butler, LeBron, etc.

I have a hard time really classifying Tatum as a "superstar" in the league. I will admit that what he did in their 2022 run was really nice, especially in that game 6 at Milwaukee where he became a flamethrower, but Tatum has always felt like he lacked that "dog" mentality. Like he's just a smart good star player at basketball. There's a reason why most people say Tatum is "an AI generated superstar" because when you watch him play, when you hear him talk, it's just kind of like "whatever".

It feels like if Boston wins, the credit won't really be that heavily on Tatum, even if he manages to secure the FMVP (which I think a lot of people would really doubt he does considering the other guys on the team). This doesn't feel like a "Jayson Tatum team". I've never seen a "superstar" so blatantly replaceable as Jayson Tatum on their team. I don't really believe that he is a superstar but just a nice star player that gets a bit more credit than he deserves because he plays on a stacked Boston Celtics team. Because they are the Celtics, the league and the city of Boston will market Tatum like the face of their sports scene and superstar in the league, but he is closer to that "nice star player" that has his moments type of deal. I mean in this playoffs, most everyone would say so far that Anthony Edwards, Luka Doncic, SGA, Jokic, and Brunson have been clearly better superstars for their teams than Tatum has been at all for Boston.

It kind of pushes me back to how Tatum was drafted to an immediate contending team, he's been always in the playoffs because Boston has been contending with him since day 1, he's had the most opportunity to succeed of nearly ANY elite prospect and this year has been the most obvious "Boston take it" year there ever was and somehow in the most clear moment of it all, he's not been up to a standard that you would expect for someone of his caliber. I was never sold on Tatum being "that guy" until the 2022 playoffs, and then I thought, "alright he's actually really good" but this year as kind of reverted that big time and I don't see Tatum being able to do something amazing like what Curry did in Boston in 2022, or what Giannis did in game 6 in the finals in 2021, or how Butler completely dismantled the Bucks in the first round last year, I can see a world where Tatum makes the right plays because his COACH put him in a position where all the elite talent around him is setting him up to succeed, but I can't see Tatum purely outplaying and ascending to a new height. Especially considering how Boston has not felt that special against Indiana so far, it's tough to really think highly of Tatum and even if he becomes a champion this year, and maybe Boston becomes a dynasty, but it feels like Tatum just happened to be in the right place at the right time, rather than being the driver of his own destiny and it feels like he might end up overrated years down the line when people see his All NBA 1st team selections and playoffs numbers when if you watched the game you'd never have felt that he was some all time great type of player.

I mean I'd be shocked if Boston manages to beat Dallas in the finals, truthfully, because the finals are almost always determined by "who is the best player on the court" and Tatum will not be the best player on the court, he might not even be the best player on his own team in those finals, and it really continues this narrative of how Tatum is "boring" and "auto generated" and "a filler star" and all the other criticisms that go his way.

In short, Tatum is a system player.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#43 » by He_Got_Game » Fri May 24, 2024 4:19 pm

srhcan wrote:
Godymas wrote:Tatum has not been good this playoffs. All efficiency has been down, he's been making bone headed mistakes, he's kind of been folding under some of the expectations this year. Jaylen Brown has been outperforming him so far in the ECF, Derrick White has been a better player overall for the playoffs the role players have really been stepping up overall. Really like what I've seen from Kornet, Pritchard, Hauser. Jrue has been really good this playoffs, Al Horford has been massively outperforming his age, and JB has been making some of the most important buckets. It really feels like if JB's shot is falling the Celtics are unbeatable. All of this with Porzingis still waiting to hop back in.

It makes me think of the more classic "superstar" carried teams. The LeBron Cavs, Butler Heat, Jokic Nuggets, Giannis Bucks, you KNOW exactly who is going to win their team the game. Like yes, they have guys behind them (less so for LeBron, especially in 2018), but their Robins are true Robins. Middleton, Murray, Bam/Herro, etc. they have their games, but at no point do you feel there is a loss of who's team it truly is. Clearly the if these teams win the FMVP is very likely to go to Jokic, Giannis, Butler, LeBron, etc.

I have a hard time really classifying Tatum as a "superstar" in the league. I will admit that what he did in their 2022 run was really nice, especially in that game 6 at Milwaukee where he became a flamethrower, but Tatum has always felt like he lacked that "dog" mentality. Like he's just a smart good star player at basketball. There's a reason why most people say Tatum is "an AI generated superstar" because when you watch him play, when you hear him talk, it's just kind of like "whatever".

It feels like if Boston wins, the credit won't really be that heavily on Tatum, even if he manages to secure the FMVP (which I think a lot of people would really doubt he does considering the other guys on the team). This doesn't feel like a "Jayson Tatum team". I've never seen a "superstar" so blatantly replaceable as Jayson Tatum on their team. I don't really believe that he is a superstar but just a nice star player that gets a bit more credit than he deserves because he plays on a stacked Boston Celtics team. Because they are the Celtics, the league and the city of Boston will market Tatum like the face of their sports scene and superstar in the league, but he is closer to that "nice star player" that has his moments type of deal. I mean in this playoffs, most everyone would say so far that Anthony Edwards, Luka Doncic, SGA, Jokic, and Brunson have been clearly better superstars for their teams than Tatum has been at all for Boston.

It kind of pushes me back to how Tatum was drafted to an immediate contending team, he's been always in the playoffs because Boston has been contending with him since day 1, he's had the most opportunity to succeed of nearly ANY elite prospect and this year has been the most obvious "Boston take it" year there ever was and somehow in the most clear moment of it all, he's not been up to a standard that you would expect for someone of his caliber. I was never sold on Tatum being "that guy" until the 2022 playoffs, and then I thought, "alright he's actually really good" but this year as kind of reverted that big time and I don't see Tatum being able to do something amazing like what Curry did in Boston in 2022, or what Giannis did in game 6 in the finals in 2021, or how Butler completely dismantled the Bucks in the first round last year, I can see a world where Tatum makes the right plays because his COACH put him in a position where all the elite talent around him is setting him up to succeed, but I can't see Tatum purely outplaying and ascending to a new height. Especially considering how Boston has not felt that special against Indiana so far, it's tough to really think highly of Tatum and even if he becomes a champion this year, and maybe Boston becomes a dynasty, but it feels like Tatum just happened to be in the right place at the right time, rather than being the driver of his own destiny and it feels like he might end up overrated years down the line when people see his All NBA 1st team selections and playoffs numbers when if you watched the game you'd never have felt that he was some all time great type of player.

I mean I'd be shocked if Boston manages to beat Dallas in the finals, truthfully, because the finals are almost always determined by "who is the best player on the court" and Tatum will not be the best player on the court, he might not even be the best player on his own team in those finals, and it really continues this narrative of how Tatum is "boring" and "auto generated" and "a filler star" and all the other criticisms that go his way.

In short, Tatum is a system player.


This is incorrect. Do people watch Tatum play?
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#44 » by CIN-C-STAR » Fri May 24, 2024 4:23 pm

Tarum leads the team in +/- these playoffs, for what it's worth.
Flawed stat, sure, but certainly disproves the notion that he's being carried these playoffs.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#45 » by PierceFan4ever » Fri May 24, 2024 4:57 pm

Sure Tatum is being carried, let’s ignore that he’s leading the team in points, rebounds, assists while being the most impactful player on the court with by far the most defensive coverage attention but go on with your false narrative to bring Tatum down just because another all star on the team making 300 million and happens to be really good, had a better game last night so the narrative must be true
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#46 » by mademan » Fri May 24, 2024 5:24 pm

Tatum's not being carried. Boston's just not being challenged, and he cant really do anything about that. Theyre having a typical Lebron EC run

Someone gotta explain to me how this conference consistently sucks.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#47 » by SupaManu » Fri May 24, 2024 5:28 pm

mademan wrote:Tatum's not being carried. Boston's just not being challenged, and he cant really do anything about that. Theyre having a typical Lebron EC run

Someone gotta explain to me how this conference consistently sucks.

Agree i don’t think he’s being carried they have just faced zero competition in the weak east and it’s been a cakewalk so far. He’s on such a stacked team he’s not required to carry the load like a usual superstar has too
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#48 » by 165bows » Fri May 24, 2024 5:50 pm

He_Got_Game wrote:
srhcan wrote:
Godymas wrote:Tatum has not been good this playoffs. All efficiency has been down, he's been making bone headed mistakes, he's kind of been folding under some of the expectations this year. Jaylen Brown has been outperforming him so far in the ECF, Derrick White has been a better player overall for the playoffs the role players have really been stepping up overall. Really like what I've seen from Kornet, Pritchard, Hauser. Jrue has been really good this playoffs, Al Horford has been massively outperforming his age, and JB has been making some of the most important buckets. It really feels like if JB's shot is falling the Celtics are unbeatable. All of this with Porzingis still waiting to hop back in.

It makes me think of the more classic "superstar" carried teams. The LeBron Cavs, Butler Heat, Jokic Nuggets, Giannis Bucks, you KNOW exactly who is going to win their team the game. Like yes, they have guys behind them (less so for LeBron, especially in 2018), but their Robins are true Robins. Middleton, Murray, Bam/Herro, etc. they have their games, but at no point do you feel there is a loss of who's team it truly is. Clearly the if these teams win the FMVP is very likely to go to Jokic, Giannis, Butler, LeBron, etc.

I have a hard time really classifying Tatum as a "superstar" in the league. I will admit that what he did in their 2022 run was really nice, especially in that game 6 at Milwaukee where he became a flamethrower, but Tatum has always felt like he lacked that "dog" mentality. Like he's just a smart good star player at basketball. There's a reason why most people say Tatum is "an AI generated superstar" because when you watch him play, when you hear him talk, it's just kind of like "whatever".

It feels like if Boston wins, the credit won't really be that heavily on Tatum, even if he manages to secure the FMVP (which I think a lot of people would really doubt he does considering the other guys on the team). This doesn't feel like a "Jayson Tatum team". I've never seen a "superstar" so blatantly replaceable as Jayson Tatum on their team. I don't really believe that he is a superstar but just a nice star player that gets a bit more credit than he deserves because he plays on a stacked Boston Celtics team. Because they are the Celtics, the league and the city of Boston will market Tatum like the face of their sports scene and superstar in the league, but he is closer to that "nice star player" that has his moments type of deal. I mean in this playoffs, most everyone would say so far that Anthony Edwards, Luka Doncic, SGA, Jokic, and Brunson have been clearly better superstars for their teams than Tatum has been at all for Boston.

It kind of pushes me back to how Tatum was drafted to an immediate contending team, he's been always in the playoffs because Boston has been contending with him since day 1, he's had the most opportunity to succeed of nearly ANY elite prospect and this year has been the most obvious "Boston take it" year there ever was and somehow in the most clear moment of it all, he's not been up to a standard that you would expect for someone of his caliber. I was never sold on Tatum being "that guy" until the 2022 playoffs, and then I thought, "alright he's actually really good" but this year as kind of reverted that big time and I don't see Tatum being able to do something amazing like what Curry did in Boston in 2022, or what Giannis did in game 6 in the finals in 2021, or how Butler completely dismantled the Bucks in the first round last year, I can see a world where Tatum makes the right plays because his COACH put him in a position where all the elite talent around him is setting him up to succeed, but I can't see Tatum purely outplaying and ascending to a new height. Especially considering how Boston has not felt that special against Indiana so far, it's tough to really think highly of Tatum and even if he becomes a champion this year, and maybe Boston becomes a dynasty, but it feels like Tatum just happened to be in the right place at the right time, rather than being the driver of his own destiny and it feels like he might end up overrated years down the line when people see his All NBA 1st team selections and playoffs numbers when if you watched the game you'd never have felt that he was some all time great type of player.

I mean I'd be shocked if Boston manages to beat Dallas in the finals, truthfully, because the finals are almost always determined by "who is the best player on the court" and Tatum will not be the best player on the court, he might not even be the best player on his own team in those finals, and it really continues this narrative of how Tatum is "boring" and "auto generated" and "a filler star" and all the other criticisms that go his way.

In short, Tatum is a system player.


This is incorrect. Do people watch Tatum play?

He’s a system player in that he can fit into literally any kind of system and carry a team lol.

It’s a funny comment because of the boatloads of data otherwise - like, how did Grant Williams and Porzingis do without Tatum? Or Horford for that matter? Derrick White? If Tatum is a system guy why do guys invariably do better with him and worse (or crater) without him?
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#49 » by Godymas » Fri May 24, 2024 6:01 pm

165bows wrote:
He_Got_Game wrote:
srhcan wrote:In short, Tatum is a system player.


This is incorrect. Do people watch Tatum play?

He’s a system player in that he can fit into literally any kind of system and carry a team lol.

It’s a funny comment because of the boatloads of data otherwise - like, how did Grant Williams and Porzingis do without Tatum? Or Horford for that matter? Derrick White? If Tatum is a system guy why do guys invariably do better with him and worse (or crater) without him?


he’s like Paul George with 10% of the swagger and 50% of the aesthetics
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#50 » by 165bows » Fri May 24, 2024 6:04 pm

Godymas wrote:
165bows wrote:
He_Got_Game wrote:
This is incorrect. Do people watch Tatum play?

He’s a system player in that he can fit into literally any kind of system and carry a team lol.

It’s a funny comment because of the boatloads of data otherwise - like, how did Grant Williams and Porzingis do without Tatum? Or Horford for that matter? Derrick White? If Tatum is a system guy why do guys invariably do better with him and worse (or crater) without him?


he’s like Paul George with 10% of the swagger and 50% of the aesthetics

No one ever responds to this point with an actual argument lol.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#51 » by OdomFan » Fri May 24, 2024 6:06 pm

Tatum doesn't need to be trying to outplay his teammates to impress people like the OP. Together him and the core of that team are getting the job done so far. If they win the championship they won it together. End of story.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#52 » by Hornet Mania » Fri May 24, 2024 6:08 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:Wake me up when the Celtics are in a series. How Tatum performs then will do a lot more for his reputation than overreacting to his cold shooting in 4-1 series wins against injured opponents.


Right there with you. I was really looking forward to measuring up this Boston team as all-time great (or not) and injuries have robbed us of that opportunity. Nothing for Celtics fans, or the organization, to feel bad about but as a fan of basketball I do feel cheated. All their metrics look historic, let's see steel sharpen steel and find out if they're truly one of the greatest squads this century.

At least they'll get stiff competition in the Finals, assuming nobody blows a tire at the tail end of the WCF.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#53 » by SupaManu » Fri May 24, 2024 6:09 pm

165bows wrote:
He_Got_Game wrote:
srhcan wrote:In short, Tatum is a system player.


This is incorrect. Do people watch Tatum play?

He’s a system player in that he can fit into literally any kind of system and carry a team lol.

It’s a funny comment because of the boatloads of data otherwise - like, how did Grant Williams and Porzingis do without Tatum? Or Horford for that matter? Derrick White? If Tatum is a system guy why do guys invariably do better with him and worse (or crater) without him?


Grant Williams definitely looks terrible without the Celtics system but white was fantastic for us before we traded him, and horford and porzingis were great players before joining the Celtics
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#54 » by JustBuzzin » Fri May 24, 2024 6:14 pm

OdomFan wrote:Tatum doesn't need to be trying to outplay his teammates to impress people like the OP. Together him and the core of that team are getting the job done so far. If they win the championship they won it together. End of story.

He's not trying to outplay anyone. He just happens to be playing like the best player on the team. You act like we haven't seen him be their best player in the playoffs in the past.

This dude shows up when it matters. Y'all can keep praising Tatum, but it's becoming clear this just might be Jaylen Brown's team.

You know it's a real discussion when ESPN and other networks are now discussing it. We all see it.

It's easy to say Tatum is better because he looks better doing it. Brown however just gets it done in a less pleasing way. His handles can be sloppy at times, he doesn't really market himself off the court. But we all know when it comes down to who wants it more that is clearly Jaylen Brown he got that DAWG in em!

People view this as a negative, but this is actually a good problem for the Celtics to have.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#55 » by hugepatsfan » Fri May 24, 2024 6:16 pm

To say he’s getting carried is a reach. He’s averaging 25.2/10.2/5.6 with almost a block and just over a steal a game in these playoffs. He leads the team in scoring/rebounding/assists. His TOV% is higher than White’s, but lower than Brown/Holiday/Pritchard (those 5 are their primary ball handlers) so he’s taking care of the ball.

He’s not a super aesthetically pleasing superstar to begin with and and Boston has only played 2 games decided by less than 10 points in these playoffs so all of their games as a whole feel dull. Tatum’s also in a shooting slump with a 3 point percentage below 25% that’s hurting his overall numbers. He hasn’t scored more than 34 in a game so he hasn’t exploded yet or had a signature game.

I think he’s been overall their best player. There’s just some recency bias. Brown made some highlight plays in game 1 and then in game 2 he was better for a night. So it brings Tatum’s status into focus, but overall he’s clearly been their best player. No one is doing anything really individually spectacular for them though because they’re so loaded, they’re playing injured teams, and they’re just sleepwalking for the most part tbh.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#56 » by 165bows » Fri May 24, 2024 6:18 pm

SupaManu wrote:
165bows wrote:
He_Got_Game wrote:
This is incorrect. Do people watch Tatum play?

He’s a system player in that he can fit into literally any kind of system and carry a team lol.

It’s a funny comment because of the boatloads of data otherwise - like, how did Grant Williams and Porzingis do without Tatum? Or Horford for that matter? Derrick White? If Tatum is a system guy why do guys invariably do better with him and worse (or crater) without him?


Grant Williams definitely looks terrible without the Celtics system but white was fantastic for us before we traded him, and horford and porzingis were great players before joining the Celtics

This is exactly the revisionism I’m referring to. Horford was widely considered a washed up salary dump on two different teams before he rejoined the Celtics.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#57 » by ChipotleWest » Fri May 24, 2024 6:23 pm

Sweet Serenity wrote:
Godymas wrote:I mean I'd be shocked if Boston manages to beat Dallas in the finals


You do realise we beat them quite easily in both games this season ? :lol:


This argument is so weak and it gets used over and over and over and over.

The first game was before the trade deadline before we got PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford. That's 2 of our 5 starters now.

Second game ok you won against this team, but Kidd decided to play Maxi 20 minutes and Gafford 6. He did this for 7 games and we lost 6 of them. After that Maxi had a minor injury Kidd started Gafford and we won 16 of 18. We've had one of the best records in the NBA ever since then. The team you got before the trade deadline was headed for play in or miss the playoffs.

It's not that I'm saying you can't beat Dallas, but flexing on 2 games one being a different roster is pretty sad.

If Boston beats Dallas in the FInals which is not even set yet, it won't be because of 1 or 2 games in the regular season. Suns swept Wolves in the regular season then Wolves swept Suns in the playoffs.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#58 » by Lalouie » Fri May 24, 2024 6:30 pm

and you know what,,,,,if the celts win it all jason will get a lot of the credit but he will share that credit with jb, because the perception is they BOTH lead the celts, and the others will get their share

,,,,and it will all be reflected in their contracts
because that is the perception

me. i dont care. i hope jrue gets a ring and the BUCKS WON'T
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#59 » by JustBuzzin » Fri May 24, 2024 6:31 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:
He’s not a super aesthetically pleasing superstar to begin with

The moment you said this pretty much sums up why Tatum has been viewed as the better player. Tatum looks better because he's 6'10 smooth and has a tighter handle.

If you can ignore that and just focus on impact you will see the 2 are on the same tier. Tatum is more marketable which also helps his cause.

If you ask me who would I want to win a championship as my lead guy I'm taking Jaylen Brown. He's a dawg, he's not flashy but he gets the job done. I ain't out here trying to win likes for social media. You wanna market your son then by all means market Deuce Deuce!

Brown got that Mamba blood. That's the guy I want. :o
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#60 » by RB34 » Fri May 24, 2024 6:42 pm

Clown thread

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