Olajuwon in place of Jokic

[migya]

Would Olajuwon 1994 and 95 have performed better than Jokic the last two seasons? Would the Nuggets have won as much and won this season?

For career, Olajuwon in place of Jokic, would align to his 1993 season now. Would he and the Nuggets have performed better?


Olajuwon did well, particularly when the shooting around him was good. Nowadays with more space to operate could be even better than he was. Similar that he didn't play with another allstar until Drexler in 95. Thorpe was dubious as allstar in 92. He'd likely be the best defender nowadays as well.

[Special_Puppy]

I think he'd still be the best defender, but his defensive value would still probably be materially worse than it was in 1994/95 just because rim protections is less important now than it was in the 90s. I'm not totally sure that he could make up for it with better offense too. His offensive skillset isn't as developed as modern centers like Embiid.

[migya]

I think he'd still be the best defender, but his defensive value would still probably be materially worse than it was in 1994/95 just because rim protections is less important now than it was in the 90s. I'm not totally sure that he could make up for it with better offense too. His offensive skillset isn't as developed as modern centers like Embiid.

Olajuwon had the most scoring skillset among Centers ever. He had a truck load of moves that noone could counter. His passing wasn't at the level of Jokic but it wasn't as low level as some think. He created the majority of the offense and those shooters got the ball alot. His defense would be better than the likes of Jaron Jackson jnr who blocks his share of shots. It's better to have Centers shoot the three more often than anyone else.

[penbeast0]

I think he'd still be the best defender, but his defensive value would still probably be materially worse than it was in 1994/95 just because rim protections is less important now than it was in the 90s. I'm not totally sure that he could make up for it with better offense too. His offensive skillset isn't as developed as modern centers like Embiid.

Olajuwon had the most scoring skillset among Centers ever. He had a truck load of moves that noone could counter. His passing wasn't at the level of Jokic but it wasn't as low level as some think. He created the majority of the offense and those shooters got the ball alot. His defense would be better than the likes of Jaron Jackson jnr who blocks his share of shots. It's better to have Centers shoot the three more often than anyone else.

Hakeem had one of the most aesthetic games, but it wasn't terribly efficient compared to someone like Wilt, Kareem, or Shaq who regularly led or were among the league leaders in scoring efficiency. With Hakeem, it's all about his playoff legacy and his game was very resilient. On the other hand, his was one of the first franchises to really spread the floor and play 4 out around him, albeit in an 80s fashion, so maybe we actually overstate his efficiency relative to those who could be considered his peers.

[dygaction]

I think he'd still be the best defender, but his defensive value would still probably be materially worse than it was in 1994/95 just because rim protections is less important now than it was in the 90s. I'm not totally sure that he could make up for it with better offense too. His offensive skillset isn't as developed as modern centers like Embiid.

Olajuwon had the most scoring skillset among Centers ever. He had a truck load of moves that noone could counter. His passing wasn't at the level of Jokic but it wasn't as low level as some think. He created the majority of the offense and those shooters got the ball alot. His defense would be better than the likes of Jaron Jackson jnr who blocks his share of shots. It's better to have Centers shoot the three more often than anyone else.

He had .553TS% career and peaked at .577TS%, scored 30.3 per 100, and peaked at 35.8. Not in the same ball park in scoring as a center.
Joker had .635TS% career and peaked at .701TS%, scored 33.7 per 100, and already peaked at 39.7.
Whatever Dream could do, Jokic could, and in many places better, range, 3pt, floater... and with a much higher efficiency.

[Special_Puppy]

I think he'd still be the best defender, but his defensive value would still probably be materially worse than it was in 1994/95 just because rim protections is less important now than it was in the 90s. I'm not totally sure that he could make up for it with better offense too. His offensive skillset isn't as developed as modern centers like Embiid.

Olajuwon had the most scoring skillset among Centers ever. He had a truck load of moves that noone could counter. His passing wasn't at the level of Jokic but it wasn't as low level as some think. He created the majority of the offense and those shooters got the ball alot. His defense would be better than the likes of Jaron Jackson jnr who blocks his share of shots. It's better to have Centers shoot the three more often than anyone else.

He had .553TS% career and peaked at .577TS%, scored 30.3 per 100, and peaked at 35.8. Not in the same ball park in scoring as a center.
Joker had .635TS% career and peaked at .701TS%, scored 33.7 per 100, and already peaked at 39.7.
Whatever Dream could do, Jokic could, and in many places better, range, 3pt, floater... and with a much higher efficiency.

I think your general point about Jokic being a better scorer than Hakeem is probably true, but the gap narrows in the post-season somewhat as Hakeem increases his volume and efficiency. Also doesn't factor in scoring inflation and league wide true shooting being ~3.5% points higher now

[rk2023]

RE: Defense

I get the argument of tactics then vs now, and the importance of being able to stop downhill attacks and ball screen offenses more than ever (eg. Switch
ability, rotating, being able to muck up >= 1 action in a given possession) - but based off their tools and defensive IQ, I don’t see how Russell nor Hakeem could be any worse than the clear best defenders in a modern day context.

The offensive side of things, is where I have more questions as to how Hakeem (with his skillset as is) looks today.

[dygaction]

Olajuwon had the most scoring skillset among Centers ever. He had a truck load of moves that noone could counter. His passing wasn't at the level of Jokic but it wasn't as low level as some think. He created the majority of the offense and those shooters got the ball alot. His defense would be better than the likes of Jaron Jackson jnr who blocks his share of shots. It's better to have Centers shoot the three more often than anyone else.

He had .553TS% career and peaked at .577TS%, scored 30.3 per 100, and peaked at 35.8. Not in the same ball park in scoring as a center.
Joker had .635TS% career and peaked at .701TS%, scored 33.7 per 100, and already peaked at 39.7.
Whatever Dream could do, Jokic could, and in many places better, range, 3pt, floater... and with a much higher efficiency.

I think your general point about Jokic being a better scorer than Hakeem is probably true, but the gap narrows in the post-season somewhat as Hakeem increases his volume and efficiency. Also doesn't factor in scoring inflation and league wide true shooting being ~3.5% points higher now

I used per 100 to adjust for pace. In the playoffs, both Hakeem and Jokic increases their volumes without hurting efficiency.
Hakeem was 34.4 per 100 (until 1997 to remove last few years) with .575TS%. Jokic has 37.7 per 100 with .635TS%. Jokic's FG% is all time great almost from anywhere inside the 3pt area.

[Special_Puppy]

He had .553TS% career and peaked at .577TS%, scored 30.3 per 100, and peaked at 35.8. Not in the same ball park in scoring as a center.
Joker had .635TS% career and peaked at .701TS%, scored 33.7 per 100, and already peaked at 39.7.
Whatever Dream could do, Jokic could, and in many places better, range, 3pt, floater... and with a much higher efficiency.

I think your general point about Jokic being a better scorer than Hakeem is probably true, but the gap narrows in the post-season somewhat as Hakeem increases his volume and efficiency. Also doesn't factor in scoring inflation and league wide true shooting being ~3.5% points higher now

I used per 100 to adjust for pace. In the playoffs, both Hakeem and Jokic increases their volumes without hurting efficiency.
Hakeem was 34.4 per 100 (until 1997 to remove last few years) with .575TS%. Jokic has 37.7 per 100 with .635TS%. Jokic's FG% is all time great almost from anywhere inside the 3pt area.

There's been scoring inflation in the NBA. A scoring rate 2 standard deviations above average in 1990 was 35.9 per 100 in 1990 and its 41.6 per 100 in 2021.

[Ambrose]

They'd be very good but Denver is built around Jokic's skillset, and the things that he excels at. The offense would fall apart because Hakeem's strengths don't really fit the teams needs. Defensively they would be exceptional but I think they still fall in round 2 this year.

[giordunk]

Too big of shoes to fill in terms of offensive playmaking.

[70sFan]

Olajuwon had the most scoring skillset among Centers ever.

Jokic literally has a broader scoring skillset than Hakeem.

[wafflzgod]

I think he'd still be the best defender, but his defensive value would still probably be materially worse than it was in 1994/95 just because rim protections is less important now than it was in the 90s. I'm not totally sure that he could make up for it with better offense too. His offensive skillset isn't as developed as modern centers like Embiid.

I also think his offense would be worse in the modern era too, where post-up isolation scoring attempts are not as optimal due to the offensive explosion that has occurred. Also, his passing/decision-making were already potentially a limiting factor on how good his offense was for his time (albeit still a great offensive player but not an all-time centerpiece IMO), and I think modern defenses could take even greater advantage of those "weaknesses"

[90sAllDecade]

His focus would be on increased three-point shooting and even more passing to open shooters than what made him successful and the Rockets champions in his own era. Essentially he'd be a better, more athletic, and healthier Embiid. His defense, rim protection, and switching would be among the best in the league.

Ayton, AD, and Bam, who aren't in the same league as Shaq, MVP Robinson, and Ewing as a trio would get dominated in the postseason with him on Denver imo.

[BroKamina]

Ben Taylor tracked Hakeem to score at about 1.22 points per possession one on one. His issue was he would try to score against many people at once according to Ben Taylor… not a problem at all in the nuggets offense

I am sure that he can throw it to an open Aaron gordan occasionally, and since he drives harder he can actually pressure their defense more. Maybe he won’t be quite as good on offense but rather than be a walking white flag defensively that the defense desperately tries to hide, he would single handedly make their front court defense better than the wolves. Replacing a guy like (playoff) Jokic defensively with a guy like Hakeem? Maybe we’d talk about the nuggets as the best defense ever!

nuggets in 5 likely, perhaps the best team of all time, Hakeem was THAT good!

I find is strange to see people mention the system is built around Jokic and it would collapse without him? The offense would have collapsed in 5/7 games with him instead of 4/7, thank god for Jamal in game 3 and 7, or else it may have been even worse! At least with Hakeem you replace the most targettable defender in the playoffs with a defender that is as good as what some charts believe Rudy Gobert is!

Imagine how much the nuggets defense would shine without having to carry a metaphorical huge dead weight defensively too! We’ve seen ANT not go against a really heavy center with cinderblock feet, makes a big difference going against the Nurks and Jokic’s of the world vs the dream named Hakeem…

A better question is what other all time centers would they win with? Any version of Shaq of course, big difference between slow footed and can’t jump versus slow footed and can jump…, Kareem too, but how far down the list do you go? Perhaps a healthy Embiid provides enough defensive value to offset the offense, given it was barely there in the first place? When will Wemby be able to be someone we say here? The big ticket Kevin Garnett? The big fundamental Tim Duncan?

[Ol Roy]

He wouldn't be replicating Jokic's role on offense. He'd be the primary scorer, drawing the defense into the paint. Murray and Gordon would be the primary playmakers. I'm not sure spacing for MPJ and KCP wouldn't improve. In theory, I don't think the offensive ceiling is as high. In practice, other teams might run into a lot of trouble stopping Hakeem from scoring.

We would probably see the best version of Hakeem; trusting his teammates and coaching staff and playing more within the flow of the offense.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Puhleeze. Hakeem had THE greatest individual playoff run in NBA history

Hakeem stomped all over Robinson and Rodman (greatest individual series in nba playoff history). Then in the following series he outdueled Shaq and Grant. Two top 10 Centers ever (one of them top 5 and the most physically imposing player in nba history). With the decades' top 2 defensive PFs alongside him.

Not sure if he could overcome the horrid shooting Denver had alongside Jokic but he's not faring any individually worse than Jokic did vs Minnesota. Too slick, elusive and agile for Gobert.....too strong for Towns.

[BroKamina]

Puhleeze. Hakeem had THE greatest individual playoff run in NBA history

Hakeem stomped all over Robinson and Rodman (greatest individual series in nba playoff history). Then in the following series he outdueled Shaq and Grant. Two top 10 Centers ever (one of them top 5 and the most physically imposing player in nba history). With the decades' top 2 defensive PFs alongside him.

Not sure if he could overcome the horrid shooting Denver had alongside Jokic but he's not faring any individually worse than Jokic did vs Minnesota. Too slick, elusive and agile for Gobert.....too strong for Towns.

Of course he could! And imagine minnesottas offense without being able to point at Jokic. I think the Nuggets win game 1 for sure, Jokic was getting killed that game. They win game 3, jamal brought them up 20 I trust Hakeem can take them home, and game 4 and 5 they shot crazy well (and of course Jokic does well when his horrible teammates are amazing like they actually are) so they win those games.

Of course if it goes to game 7 I trust the dream… I think he would help them maintain a 20 point lead, if anything he would at least play some defense instead of the team having to cover him he would cover for them, it would make the denver players play better on offense too knowing they don’t have to always cover for their center and instead can rely on him like a reliable ultimaye backbone of defense!

So nuggets in 5 is the most likely, 7 is possible too! Even if I’m being harsh on dream here too… they just aren’t close to the same caliber of player once the playoffs start

[SportsGuru08]

Hakeem used to torch much better defenders than Gobert and KAT. He'd smell blood in the water if those guys were guarding him.

[Johnny Firpo]

Hakeem is a significantly worse offensive player than Jokic. Like it's not even close. Denver's problem was offense, not defense. In their losses, they averaged like 80 freakin' points.With Hakeem, I think they lose in 6 or maybe even 5.