How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? UPDATE: TATUM BEING CARRIED TO GOLD TOO

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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#101 » by jbsays » Sun May 26, 2024 2:05 pm

AdagioPace wrote:Celtics, especially this season, seem good enough as a collective to overcome the need for a superstar taking over when needed (pistons 2004, spurs 2014). Celtics 2024?


Yes sir... I was coming in to post that the Celtics may be similar to a team like the 2004 Pistons.

Also, it looks like Tatum is averaging 25.2 points, 10.2 rebounds and 5.6 assists. He's definitely contributing. I can understand people thinking "he's not taking over or dominating like (insert former player)".... but he really hasn't had to and the Celtics are 11-2 so far in the playoffs and have won 6 in a row.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#102 » by KodiakBear » Sun May 26, 2024 2:07 pm

Horford carrying guys to championships.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#103 » by Godymas » Sun May 26, 2024 2:09 pm

jbsays wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:Celtics, especially this season, seem good enough as a collective to overcome the need for a superstar taking over when needed (pistons 2004, spurs 2014). Celtics 2024?


Yes sir... I was coming in to post that the Celtics may be similar to a team like the 2004 Pistons.

Also, it looks like Tatum is averaging 25.2 points, 10.2 rebounds and 5.6 assists. He's definitely contributing. I can understand people thinking "he's not taking over or dominating like (insert former player)".... but he really hasn't had to and the Celtics are 11-2 so far in the playoffs and have won 6 in a row.


every single opponent they faced pretty much lasted 2 games max before major star injury or flat out giving up, this might be the easiest run in the East ever
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#104 » by 165bows » Sun May 26, 2024 2:18 pm

baldur wrote:tatum is not a kobe bryant. but he is not jalen rose or monta ellis either. let's settle this down at least.

It’s funny ‘cause it’s well known Tatum looked up to Kobe but it’s tough to find a Kobe season where he put up 30/9/5 on 60TS%.

So yes I agree lol.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#105 » by durden_tyler » Sun May 26, 2024 2:22 pm

Not his fault that he has a great team (on the narrative that "anyone is getting carried") as most successfull/champion teams have multiple players contributing big numbers.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#106 » by User_friendly » Sun May 26, 2024 3:14 pm

FreeBird23 wrote:People often forget that basketball is a TEAM sport.
Tatum is doing a good job, just like Brown, Jrue, Al, White, etc...
If they win a championship, who cares if Tatum or Brown was the best player of the playoffs. They need both.

Many people care. Because, although in my opinion, it shouldn't be like that, if Celtic wins the title Tatum playing not so well, and Celtics are also winning next season, he will be catapulted to MVP because of being "Celtic's face", and because of Celtic's title, while the real credit maybe being due to others.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#107 » by tsherkin » Sun May 26, 2024 6:49 pm

165bows wrote:
baldur wrote:tatum is not a kobe bryant. but he is not jalen rose or monta ellis either. let's settle this down at least.

It’s funny ‘cause it’s well known Tatum looked up to Kobe but it’s tough to find a Kobe season where he put up 30/9/5 on 60TS%.

So yes I agree lol.



rTS is relevant.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#108 » by Mephariel » Sun May 26, 2024 7:42 pm

EmpireFalls wrote:One thing about Tatum is that he is very easy to build around. Great defender, high energy rebounder, can size up to play the 4 or 3 interchangeably, doesn’t need to be the primary ball handler but can pass well enough you don’t need a true PG, there’s a lot of good players that fit with him.

The thing about some of the elite stars is they do need unique fits around them. Giannis needs a floor spacing front court guy next to him for space, Luka needs to have the ball constantly, etc. so it makes roster building from an GM perspective more flexible comparatively.


I absolutely agree with this. This is probably his biggest asset. He is good everywhere and doesn't need the ball all the time. You can put any superstar next to him and he can thrive.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#109 » by 165bows » Sun May 26, 2024 9:01 pm

tsherkin wrote:
165bows wrote:
baldur wrote:tatum is not a kobe bryant. but he is not jalen rose or monta ellis either. let's settle this down at least.

It’s funny ‘cause it’s well known Tatum looked up to Kobe but it’s tough to find a Kobe season where he put up 30/9/5 on 60TS%.

So yes I agree lol.



rTS is relevant.

Sure but it’s not all there is either. Plenty of dudes would be different or out of the league today so not sure that we can just scale it to today just because. More skills needed now just the way it is.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#110 » by tsherkin » Sun May 26, 2024 9:55 pm

165bows wrote:Sure but it’s not all there is either. Plenty of dudes would be different or out of the league today so not sure that we can just scale it to today just because. More skills needed now just the way it is.


It's very different today, for sure. But the guys who play today aren't randomly smarter; it comes from access to training earlier and differences in coaching, etc. A lot of them would be able to change up their game. We've even seen vets from that era doing it in this era. Late-stage Grant Hill, for example. Hell, we saw Bruce Bowen (who was useless at the FT line) turned into a capable corner 3pt shooter two decades ago, you know what I mean? The guys who would be out of the league are more the fringe guys than the stars. And we've seen translatable skills in the crossover eras. We also saw guys adjusting their raw TS as the league changed from 05 onward, and there is a meaningful difference in how the game is played now. Faster tempo, more emphasis on 3pt shooting, percentages in the paint are at an all-time high without a large change in acrobatic finishing, etc, etc. Finishing percentage at the rim is up 10.5% compared to 2004, and that isn't because everyone is suddenly and magically a better shooter (especially because we were seeing rim percentages rise in the years before this even from guys who had been in the league for ages).

So yeah, the anti-earlier era stuff is a little melodramatic and hyperbolic a lot of the time. Obviously, the individual payer and their skill set matter. But someone like Kobe would obviously be very good today, and someone would have be trolling to suggest otherwise, you know?
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#111 » by swyftdahoe » Sun May 26, 2024 10:07 pm

If I were a Celtics fan, I'd be thrilled. If he can save his big (scoring) games for the Finals, that'd be quite ideal.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#112 » by 165bows » Sun May 26, 2024 10:15 pm

tsherkin wrote:
165bows wrote:Sure but it’s not all there is either. Plenty of dudes would be different or out of the league today so not sure that we can just scale it to today just because. More skills needed now just the way it is.


It's very different today, for sure. But the guys who play today aren't randomly smarter; it comes from access to training earlier and differences in coaching, etc. A lot of them would be able to change up their game. We've even seen vets from that era doing it in this era. Late-stage Grant Hill, for example. Hell, we saw Bruce Bowen (who was useless at the FT line) turned into a capable corner 3pt shooter two decades ago, you know what I mean? The guys who would be out of the league are more the fringe guys than the stars. And we've seen translatable skills in the crossover eras. We also saw guys adjusting their raw TS as the league changed from 05 onward, and there is a meaningful difference in how the game is played now. Faster tempo, more emphasis on 3pt shooting, percentages in the paint are at an all-time high without a large change in acrobatic finishing, etc, etc. Finishing percentage at the rim is up 10.5% compared to 2004, and that isn't because everyone is suddenly and magically a better shooter (especially because we were seeing rim percentages rise in the years before this even from guys who had been in the league for ages).

So yeah, the anti-earlier era stuff is a little melodramatic and hyperbolic a lot of the time. Obviously, the individual payer and their skill set matter. But someone like Kobe would obviously be very good today, and someone would have be trolling to suggest otherwise, you know?

The argument is just boring. You take the side that relativism is more important and I’ll take that the empirical better production is better. Stake out terms why one is different than the other, just nothing new in it all.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#113 » by tsherkin » Sun May 26, 2024 10:33 pm

165bows wrote:The argument is just boring. You take the side that relativism is more important and I’ll take that the empirical better production is better. Stake out terms why one is different than the other, just nothing new in it all.


Context is relevant. There is plenty of evidence suggesting guys could adapt. There will be individual exceptions, for sure, but like, this isn't Humanity 2.0. Yeah, if you took guys from 20 years ago and dropped them in now with no adaptation period, they'd have some trouble, but if you think a guy like Kobe, Grant Hill or Ray Allen couldn't play in today's game, then I don't know what to tell you.

The guys today are seeing some of that difference in statistical production and efficiency because of environment and usage differences, not intellect or ability to develop skill.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#114 » by 165bows » Sun May 26, 2024 10:43 pm

tsherkin wrote:
165bows wrote:The argument is just boring. You take the side that relativism is more important and I’ll take that the empirical better production is better. Stake out terms why one is different than the other, just nothing new in it all.


Context is relevant. There is plenty of evidence suggesting guys could adapt. There will be individual exceptions, for sure, but like, this isn't Humanity 2.0. Yeah, if you took guys from 20 years ago and dropped them in now with no adaptation period, they'd have some trouble, but if you think a guy like Kobe, Grant Hill or Ray Allen couldn't play in today's game, then I don't know what to tell you.

The guys today are seeing some of that difference in statistical production and efficiency because of environment and usage differences, not intellect or ability to develop skill.

Not sure why you are being so literal about that part of my prior post, I never even remotely suggested Kobe wouldn’t be able to play today that’s disingenuous to suggest that.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#115 » by tsherkin » Sun May 26, 2024 10:45 pm

165bows wrote:Not sure why you are being so literal about that part of my prior post, I never even remotely suggested Kobe wouldn’t be able to play today that’s disingenuous to suggest that.


It's the chain of conversation. I specifically remarked upon Kobe and his peers, then you called the argument "boring" and didn't respond to that aspect, so I circled back to it. Keep in mind, I agreed with you that some people wouldn't be able to translate well; I never said everyone from the earlier periods would adjust without issue (or at all).
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#116 » by 165bows » Sun May 26, 2024 10:49 pm

:nod: or
tsherkin wrote:
165bows wrote:Not sure why you are being so literal about that part of my prior post, I never even remotely suggested Kobe wouldn’t be able to play today that’s disingenuous to suggest that.


It's the chain of conversation. I specifically remarked upon Kobe and his peers, then you called the argument "boring" and didn't respond to that aspect, so I circled back to it. Keep in mind, I agreed with you that some people wouldn't be able to translate well; I never said everyone from the earlier periods would adjust without issue (or at all).

Right because I felt like you were taking what I said badly out of context and accusing me of trolling for something I didn’t say.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#117 » by tsherkin » Sun May 26, 2024 10:52 pm

165bows wrote:Right because I felt like you were taking what I said badly out of context and accusing me of trolling for something I didn’t say.


Oh no.

That is a misunderstanding; the trolling remark was in no way directed at you. I was taking a swipe at another poster who constantly bags on the older generation and Kobe in particular on a regular basis with ridiculous nonsense posts. Sorry for the confusion, that's my bad.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#118 » by jbsays » Thu May 30, 2024 12:04 am

Godymas wrote:
jbsays wrote:
AdagioPace wrote:Celtics, especially this season, seem good enough as a collective to overcome the need for a superstar taking over when needed (pistons 2004, spurs 2014). Celtics 2024?


Yes sir... I was coming in to post that the Celtics may be similar to a team like the 2004 Pistons.

Also, it looks like Tatum is averaging 25.2 points, 10.2 rebounds and 5.6 assists. He's definitely contributing. I can understand people thinking "he's not taking over or dominating like (insert former player)".... but he really hasn't had to and the Celtics are 11-2 so far in the playoffs and have won 6 in a row.


every single opponent they faced pretty much lasted 2 games max before major star injury or flat out giving up, this might be the easiest run in the East ever


I don't disagree with that at all. Butler didn't even play in the Miami series.

You can't blame the Celtics or Tatum for that though. They can only beat the teams in front of them. And they are doing it without Tatum having to dominate. Celtics fans should be thrilled.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#119 » by ITYSL » Thu May 30, 2024 12:50 am

He leads the Celtics in the playoffs for points, rebounds and assists; is 2nd in steals; and 3rd in blocks.

Among all players in the playoffs, he's 5th in points, 4th in rebounds, 9th in assists, and 4th in P+R+A. On a per game basis, he's 8th in P+R+A. Regarding his efficiency - of those who have more PRA/game these playoffs, he has a higher TS% than two of them (Brunson and Doncic).

This is not the profile of a player being carried.
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Re: How do we feel about Tatum being carried to a finals? 

Post#120 » by tsherkin » Thu May 30, 2024 12:57 am

CoP wrote:This is not the profile of a player being carried.


Yeah, "carried" is the wrong word.

He isn't an ATG offensive player, that's what people mostly mean, I think. But he's clearly hustling on D, hitting the boards, moving the ball well, flowing inside the offense. And he's shouldering big minutes and scoring volume, and is very much no mere roleplayer. Dude's a legit star, and is not being carried. He is enjoying a very good team around him, but he's pulling his weight.

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