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Infinite Llamas wrote:If we are emphasizing role players and their effect on how strong teams are than Minnesota beating Denver is less impressive with Denver losing Bruce Brown.
nikster wrote:web123888 wrote:I’d rather have Doncic as a closer / in the clutch. We saw Jokic struggle to close games late vs the T-Wolves. Due to the position he plays and his size he’s not the same level of shot creator in the clutch that Doncic is.
Doncic has basically probably been the best late game closer since he was a 20 year old kid and had that epic game winner vs the Clippers in the bubble. Has been a prodigy since he entered the league, far advanced for his age.
In the 3 close games in that Wolves series (games 1, 4 and 7) Jokic scored 10, 16 and 14 points I'm the 4th quarter
web123888 wrote:nikster wrote:web123888 wrote:I’d rather have Doncic as a closer / in the clutch. We saw Jokic struggle to close games late vs the T-Wolves. Due to the position he plays and his size he’s not the same level of shot creator in the clutch that Doncic is.
Doncic has basically probably been the best late game closer since he was a 20 year old kid and had that epic game winner vs the Clippers in the bubble. Has been a prodigy since he entered the league, far advanced for his age.
In the 3 close games in that Wolves series (games 1, 4 and 7) Jokic scored 10, 16 and 14 points I'm the 4th quarter
That doesn’t matter. Game on the line, 10-15 seconds left, one player with the ball in his hands and everyone else gtfo of the way - Doncic is simply the best in the league.
Just like Jordan was, Bird was etc.
Infinite Llamas wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:Infinite Llamas wrote:
They can’t. It’s because Boston was literally the only threat to them last year. That’s how freaking goood that Denver was.
Yeah, it probably was just Boston, or a healthy Milwaukee or Philly. It's not Denvers fault those teams flamed out or were impacted by injuries. But that doesn't mean beating the teams they did proved much of anything, other than they could beat those teams who they clearly outmatched. When they got up against a legit team in Minnesota, who is about to get bounced quickly by Luka and the Mavs, they lost. That doesn't tell you anything about how weak things were last season?
It doesn't change the fact that Minnesota, Phoenix, LA and Miami weren't typical caliber teams you'd see in the rounds each was faced (aside from Minny, who was an 8 seed caliber first round team). It doesn't change the fact that the West was weak last year, with Memphis in disarray by playoff time as the 2 seed and Sacramento being an overachieving 3 seed that nobody took seriously. The kings were the same team this year, won 2 fewer games and missed the playoffs completely.
If you two were that impressed by the path they took, can't acknowledge how weak the West was last year (described above) comparative to a normal year (such as this year, OKC, Minnesota and Dallas are all better than any team outside of Denver from last season, but are certainty not historical juggernauts), then live your dream. But this year really put it in prospective for you with Denver losing in the second round vs. their first real test. There are many teams since 2000, who didn't win a title in their respective seasons, who could've beat that same path Denver did last season.
So Dallas was trash without PJ and Gafford
OKC was trash without Chet
Minnesota was trash without Naz and Jaden
If we are emphasizing role players and their effect on how strong teams are than Minnesota beating Denver is less impressive with Denver losing Bruce Brown.
web123888 wrote:nikster wrote:web123888 wrote:I’d rather have Doncic as a closer / in the clutch. We saw Jokic struggle to close games late vs the T-Wolves. Due to the position he plays and his size he’s not the same level of shot creator in the clutch that Doncic is.
Doncic has basically probably been the best late game closer since he was a 20 year old kid and had that epic game winner vs the Clippers in the bubble. Has been a prodigy since he entered the league, far advanced for his age.
In the 3 close games in that Wolves series (games 1, 4 and 7) Jokic scored 10, 16 and 14 points I'm the 4th quarter
That doesn’t matter. Game on the line, 10-15 seconds left, one player with the ball in his hands and everyone else gtfo of the way - Doncic is simply the best in the league.
Just like Jordan was, Bird was etc.
hardenASG13 wrote:Infinite Llamas wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:
Yeah, it probably was just Boston, or a healthy Milwaukee or Philly. It's not Denvers fault those teams flamed out or were impacted by injuries. But that doesn't mean beating the teams they did proved much of anything, other than they could beat those teams who they clearly outmatched. When they got up against a legit team in Minnesota, who is about to get bounced quickly by Luka and the Mavs, they lost. That doesn't tell you anything about how weak things were last season?
It doesn't change the fact that Minnesota, Phoenix, LA and Miami weren't typical caliber teams you'd see in the rounds each was faced (aside from Minny, who was an 8 seed caliber first round team). It doesn't change the fact that the West was weak last year, with Memphis in disarray by playoff time as the 2 seed and Sacramento being an overachieving 3 seed that nobody took seriously. The kings were the same team this year, won 2 fewer games and missed the playoffs completely.
If you two were that impressed by the path they took, can't acknowledge how weak the West was last year (described above) comparative to a normal year (such as this year, OKC, Minnesota and Dallas are all better than any team outside of Denver from last season, but are certainty not historical juggernauts), then live your dream. But this year really put it in prospective for you with Denver losing in the second round vs. their first real test. There are many teams since 2000, who didn't win a title in their respective seasons, who could've beat that same path Denver did last season.
So Dallas was trash without PJ and Gafford
OKC was trash without Chet
Minnesota was trash without Naz and Jaden
If we are emphasizing role players and their effect on how strong teams are than Minnesota beating Denver is less impressive with Denver losing Bruce Brown.
It's not about that, nor is this about how impressive Minnesotas win vs Denver was this season. The thing is, Bruce Brown was never on Denver this season. Naz and Jaden were on Minnesota last season. They were missing guys who they were used to having.
Regardless, they were a .500 team all season last year. Dallas wasn't any good either, and further integrated Kyrie (who they were 8-12 with in the lineup last season) while replacing the Powell/Wood/Kleber Frontline with Jones/Gafford/lively and Washington. We're not talking about one role player there.
OKC was young last year, had lots of internal improvement as an extremely young team, and not only added Chet, they added a center/shot blocker, which addressed their biggest weakness from last season.
I don't see what point you're trying to make? None of those teams were good last year, but were this year. They were all better this year than any team out west from 2022-2023 outside of Denver. Are you saying Jokic and Denver should get a pass for losing to their first quality opponent because they lost Bruce Brown, and at no fault of their 3x MVP who hasn't shown an ability to take over and close a series vs. a good team outside of the bubble?
hardenASG13 wrote:Infinite Llamas wrote:BelgradeNugget wrote:
3. Denver didn't skip anyone, never said they did. That can be true while the fact that none of the teams they played were even as good as this year's Minnesota is also true, therefore I don't think it proved a whole lot.
3. So you want to say all NBA was bad last year with no good team?
Nah, the whole NBA wasn't bad last year, just the teams Denver faced weren't very good.
OK name me good teams contenders, team that were better than the teams Nuggets beat from LAST year.
They can’t. It’s because Boston was literally the only threat to them last year. That’s how freaking goood that Denver was.
Yeah, it probably was just Boston, or a healthy Milwaukee or Philly. It's not Denvers fault those teams flamed out or were impacted by injuries.
Special_Puppy wrote:web123888 wrote:nikster wrote:In the 3 close games in that Wolves series (games 1, 4 and 7) Jokic scored 10, 16 and 14 points I'm the 4th quarter
That doesn’t matter. Game on the line, 10-15 seconds left, one player with the ball in his hands and everyone else gtfo of the way - Doncic is simply the best in the league.
Just like Jordan was, Bird was etc.
You legit sound like Skip Bayless lol. Jokic's net rating in very leverage moments is +10.8. https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18,2016-17,2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=VeryHigh,High
Infinite Llamas wrote:UglyBugBall wrote:Special_Puppy wrote:
The starting lineup was literally Jokic-AG-Monte Morris-Will Barton+Jeff Green with Austin Rivers+Bones Hyland+Facundo Campazzo+JaMychal Green coming off the bench. That's an absolutely horrendous supporting cast compared to Luka's decent but not great supporting cast
AG is an elite starter, better than anyone Luka had til kyrie. Rivers, Green and Bones are three of the best bench players in the league that are starter material. (Green not so much today)
Just stop now.
If you seriously believe Austin “not even in the league” is one of the best bench players in the league, it’s quite clear you don’t follow the sport at all. Don’t even get me started on Bones HYland lmao
BelgradeNugget wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:Infinite Llamas wrote:
They can’t. It’s because Boston was literally the only threat to them last year. That’s how freaking goood that Denver was.
Yeah, it probably was just Boston, or a healthy Milwaukee or Philly. It's not Denvers fault those teams flamed out or were impacted by injuries.
He, he Philly. Playing Embiid's Philly in the second round in the east is like entering a loop hole in the fabric of space-time. You enter on one side and you end in the ECF 2 weeks later. Even Hawks went through it few years ago.
So it was Boston or Milwaukee, and Miami finalist, beat them both. Does this tell you something?
One more thing. Both Boston and Milwaukee made big trades in the off season to improve their teams. Because they tought they were not good enough. They didn't do this the year before. Think about that.
hardenASG13 wrote:BelgradeNugget wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:
Yeah, it probably was just Boston, or a healthy Milwaukee or Philly. It's not Denvers fault those teams flamed out or were impacted by injuries.
He, he Philly. Playing Embiid's Philly in the second round in the east is like entering a loop hole in the fabric of space-time. You enter on one side and you end in the ECF 2 weeks later. Even Hawks went through it few years ago.
So it was Boston or Milwaukee, and Miami finalist, beat them both. Does this tell you something?
One more thing. Both Boston and Milwaukee made big trades in the off season to improve their teams. Because they tought they were not good enough. They didn't do this the year before. Think about that.
No, it tells me nothing. Miami played out of their minds vs. Milwaukee (a series which Giannis missed games) and for the first 3 games of the Boston series. I'm firmly convinced Boston would've beat them in game 7 had Tatum not gotten badly injured in the first minute, but we'll never know. We do know Miami didn't play to nearly the same level in the finals, that was plain to see with anyone who'd watched the playoffs.
There's nothing to think about with your second point. Boston knew Horford was old and Williams had health issues. White was clearly ready for a larger role making Smart expendable. They were then able to turn Smart into Porzingis, and Williams into Holiday. 2 no brainers. As far as Milwaukee, they recognize that Giannis, too, has lost vs. every good team he's played, and likely was going to lose in 2021 before kyries injury. They had to do something. I believe Giannis also demanded they do that trade, and the Bucks know they have to do everything in their power to keep him there, because no star as good as him will ever sign there, and the odds of drafting someone as good as him are extremely low.
web123888 wrote:Special_Puppy wrote:web123888 wrote:That doesn’t matter. Game on the line, 10-15 seconds left, one player with the ball in his hands and everyone else gtfo of the way - Doncic is simply the best in the league.
Just like Jordan was, Bird was etc.
You legit sound like Skip Bayless lol. Jokic's net rating in very leverage moments is +10.8. https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18,2016-17,2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=VeryHigh,High
I don’t listen to Bayless at all but you sound like someone who doesn’t watch or understand the game and think everything can be boiled down to an excel spreadsheet, especially something as important as clutch, final play shot creation / shot making.
I never once implied Jokic isn’t elite in the clutch or bad as a closer, just that Doncic is better in that regard and the best closer in the game.
It’s fairly obvious to anyone who knows what they’re watching.
web123888 wrote:Special_Puppy wrote:web123888 wrote:That doesn’t matter. Game on the line, 10-15 seconds left, one player with the ball in his hands and everyone else gtfo of the way - Doncic is simply the best in the league.
Just like Jordan was, Bird was etc.
You legit sound like Skip Bayless lol. Jokic's net rating in very leverage moments is +10.8. https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18,2016-17,2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=VeryHigh,High
I don’t listen to Bayless at all but you sound like someone who doesn’t watch or understand the game and think everything can be boiled down to an excel spreadsheet, especially something as important as clutch, final play shot creation / shot making.
I never once implied Jokic isn’t elite in the clutch or bad as a closer, just that Doncic is better in that regard and the best closer in the game.
It’s fairly obvious to anyone who knows what they’re watching.
BelgradeNugget wrote:hardenASG13 wrote:BelgradeNugget wrote:He, he Philly. Playing Embiid's Philly in the second round in the east is like entering a loop hole in the fabric of space-time. You enter on one side and you end in the ECF 2 weeks later. Even Hawks went through it few years ago.
So it was Boston or Milwaukee, and Miami finalist, beat them both. Does this tell you something?
One more thing. Both Boston and Milwaukee made big trades in the off season to improve their teams. Because they tought they were not good enough. They didn't do this the year before. Think about that.
No, it tells me nothing. Miami played out of their minds vs. Milwaukee (a series which Giannis missed games) and for the first 3 games of the Boston series. I'm firmly convinced Boston would've beat them in game 7 had Tatum not gotten badly injured in the first minute, but we'll never know. We do know Miami didn't play to nearly the same level in the finals, that was plain to see with anyone who'd watched the playoffs.
There's nothing to think about with your second point. Boston knew Horford was old and Williams had health issues. White was clearly ready for a larger role making Smart expendable. They were then able to turn Smart into Porzingis, and Williams into Holiday. 2 no brainers. As far as Milwaukee, they recognize that Giannis, too, has lost vs. every good team he's played, and likely was going to lose in 2021 before kyries injury. They had to do something. I believe Giannis also demanded they do that trade, and the Bucks know they have to do everything in their power to keep him there, because no star as good as him will ever sign there, and the odds of drafting someone as good as him are extremely low.
He, he talking to you is like entering a loop hole in the fabric of space-time. I explained to you all the things you were wrong about, as other posters did, but somehow you end in the beginning with the same bad takes.
Never mind, time for me to take my medications and go to vacation.
nikster wrote:web123888 wrote:Special_Puppy wrote:
You legit sound like Skip Bayless lol. Jokic's net rating in very leverage moments is +10.8. https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18,2016-17,2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=VeryHigh,High
I don’t listen to Bayless at all but you sound like someone who doesn’t watch or understand the game and think everything can be boiled down to an excel spreadsheet, especially something as important as clutch, final play shot creation / shot making.
I never once implied Jokic isn’t elite in the clutch or bad as a closer, just that Doncic is better in that regard and the best closer in the game.
It’s fairly obvious to anyone who knows what they’re watching.
"We saw Jokic struggle to close games late vs the T-Wolves."
web123888 wrote:nikster wrote:web123888 wrote:
I don’t listen to Bayless at all but you sound like someone who doesn’t watch or understand the game and think everything can be boiled down to an excel spreadsheet, especially something as important as clutch, final play shot creation / shot making.
I never once implied Jokic isn’t elite in the clutch or bad as a closer, just that Doncic is better in that regard and the best closer in the game.
It’s fairly obvious to anyone who knows what they’re watching.
"We saw Jokic struggle to close games late vs the T-Wolves."
Game 7 vs T-Wolves he was not good in the clutch (missed a ton of crucial threes down the stretch). Vs the same team a round later Doncic has closed impeccably.
Jokic is still great in the clutch overall but did struggle at times vs the T-Wolves. I’d prefer Doncic with the game on the line.
Idk if he’s better overall, and think it’s very close and debatable.
web123888 wrote:Special_Puppy wrote:web123888 wrote:That doesn’t matter. Game on the line, 10-15 seconds left, one player with the ball in his hands and everyone else gtfo of the way - Doncic is simply the best in the league.
Just like Jordan was, Bird was etc.
You legit sound like Skip Bayless lol. Jokic's net rating in very leverage moments is +10.8. https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18,2016-17,2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=203999&Leverage=VeryHigh,High
I don’t listen to Bayless at all but you sound like someone who doesn’t watch or understand the game and think everything can be boiled down to an excel spreadsheet, especially something as important as clutch, final play shot creation / shot making.
I never once implied Jokic isn’t elite in the clutch or bad as a closer, just that Doncic is better in that regard and the best closer in the game.
It’s fairly obvious to anyone who knows what they’re watching.
nikster wrote:web123888 wrote:nikster wrote:"We saw Jokic struggle to close games late vs the T-Wolves."
Game 7 vs T-Wolves he was not good in the clutch (missed a ton of crucial threes down the stretch). Vs the same team a round later Doncic has closed impeccably.
Jokic is still great in the clutch overall but did struggle at times vs the T-Wolves. I’d prefer Doncic with the game on the line.
Idk if he’s better overall, and think it’s very close and debatable.
Again 14 points in that game 7 4th quarter. Last 2 minutes he had 2 buckets in the paint, assist to Jamal and drew 2 free throws and made both. He was 2 for 5 from 3 in the quarter and had only one missed 3 pointer in the last 9 minutes.
Seems you have no idea what you've been watching
