Lebron or Kareem - who's greater?

[Iwasawitness]

To me top 3 are Jordan, Kareem & Russell. I can't put Lebron above any of them since he has less rings, less MVPs, & wasn't as great of a defender as any of them. He also has less individual season leader awards than all 3 of them. Russell would have the most Finals MVPs of all time too & have multiple defensive player of the year awards if they were given out at the time. I don't have Russell as the GOAT over Jordan or Kareem since he wasn't as great of a two way player & when comparing eras he played in the weakest era of the 3 as well. To me I'd have no problem with 4-7 in any order between Magic, Duncan, Lebron & Wilt even if I'd disagree with the order.

I think this is all the reason you need to not take this guy seriously.

I could see why you hate my opinion since your favorite team is the Cavs. But the people here have spoken & the majority have Kareem over Lebron. You need to deal with others having different opinions otherwise I guess you'd prefer to be in a bubble of everyone having the same boring opinion.

I don’t care about people picking Kareem over LeBron. Just this, combined with everything else you’ve said, has given me every reason not to take you seriously.

[PassMeTheBall]

I think this is all the reason you need to not take this guy seriously.

I could see why you hate my opinion since your favorite team is the Cavs. But the people here have spoken & the majority have Kareem over Lebron. You need to deal with others having different opinions otherwise I guess you'd prefer to be in a bubble of everyone having the same boring opinion.

I don’t care about people picking Kareem over LeBron. Just this, combined with everything else you’ve said, has given me every reason not to take you seriously.

Likewise for thinking Lebron is the GOAT or in 2nd all time. But the difference is I don’t lash out for you having a different opinion. You’re clearly upset that I don’t think of Lebron as highly as you do.

[KrAzY3]

Love or hate LeBron he is on his own tier

Of longevity? Sure, I can buy that...

But peak, great as in at their greatest? Even the stuff you posted has nothing to do with peak...

[D.Brasco]

Love or hate LeBron he is on his own tier

Of longevity? Sure, I can buy that...

But peak, great as in at their greatest? Even the stuff you posted has nothing to do with peak...

LeBron had one of the greatest peaks in NBA history. That's not even really something that needs to be debated.

[Genjuro]

This kind of stuff is usually very debatable... but I'm still surprised that so many people consider Kareem over LeBron.

LeBron would've never, not even close, missed the playoffs at his prime, as bad as his teammates would've been, and we have proof of what he could do with a pathetic supporting cast during his first Cavs stint. Kareem at 28 years old couldn't lead the Lakers to the playoffs in 1976 or have a winning record despite playing the whole 82 games and averaging 41 minutes while getting the MVP in a pre-merger diluted NBA. I understand the team had won only 30 games the previous season, but an improvement of just 10 games is kind of disappointing.

As for the rings, we can't ignore the superstars Kareem had next to him (or the ones LeBron had himself) and his status in those teams. Kareem was at best three times the first option of a championship team, more likely just twice. He won three/four championships as second banana, which matters, but much less when we're debating ATGs. LeBron was the clear-cut leader of his four rings.

This is a world of difference IMO.

[PassMeTheBall]

This kind of stuff is usually very debatable... but I'm still surprised that so many people consider Kareem over LeBron.

LeBron would've never, not even close, missed the playoffs at his prime, as bad as his teammates would've been, and we have proof of what he could do with a pathetic supporting cast during his first Cavs stint. Kareem at 28 years old couldn't lead the Lakers to the playoffs in 1976 or have a winning record despite playing the whole 82 games and averaging 41 minutes while getting the MVP in a pre-merger diluted NBA. I understand the team had won only 30 games the previous season, but an improvement of just 10 games is kind of disappointing.

As for the rings, we can't ignore the superstars Kareem had next to him (or the ones LeBron had himself) and his status in those teams. Kareem was at best three times the first option of a championship team, more likely just twice. He won three/four championships as second banana, which matters, but much less when we're debating ATGs. LeBron was the clear-cut leader of his four rings.

This is a world of difference IMO.

You used your words wisely for the 2020 ring. AD played just as good as Lebron was in 2020 or arguably even better. Lebron was considered the leader but AD was better in the season & he was better against the Blazers & Rockets in the playoffs.

I have the opposite mindset where I don't see how Lebron is ahead of Kareem. Kareem has more rings, MVPs, greater defender, would have at minimum 3 DPOTY awards if they were given out throughout his entire career. Has more individual season leader awards while James only has 1 scoring title & 1 assists title. Even if you want to mention longevity, Kareem is top 3 all time in points, rebounds & in official blocks. Lebron should have 5 MVPs at best while Kareem should realistically have 8 or 9. The main one of contention for James is the one Rose won but I think the reason Rose won was due to 2 of his 3 main teammates were out for long stretches of the 2011 Season & Rose still carried the team to the best record in the league. James also needed to join up with two #1 option players to win his first few rings. If James was the best player in the league why did he need to join up with a #1 option player that already won on his own? Not saying Kobe is better than James, but why could Kobe beat the Celtics without a superteam but James couldn't? James took the easiest way out he possibly could to beating his strongest competition. You could say Kareem had Magic, but Kareem still won on his own with an aging Oscar in his 2nd season & took a very good Celtics team in his 5th season to 7 games while James played horrible & got swept against the Spurs in his 4th season. You could probably make a case that James was a better overall basketball player in terms of skill but he definitely isn't greater.

[Hair Jordan]

Kareem. Best high school player ever. Best college player ever and arguably the best NBA player ever. 6 MVP’s, FMVP’s 14 years apart, 6 titles etc.

[Yoshun]

LeBron is in the GOAT argument.

[PassMeTheBall]

Kareem. Best high school player ever. Best college player ever and arguably the best NBA player ever. 6 MVP’s, FMVP’s 14 years apart, 6 titles etc.

I forgot to add in my previous post that he should have 3 FMVPs as well instead of only 2. The only reason he didn't win it in 1980 was literally due to not being in the arena. Magic should still have 3 himself since he was the best player in the Finals in 1988. Worthy got it due to his game 7 but Magic was better for the entirety of the series.

[swyftdahoe]

Comparing across positions and generations really makes little sense. They both peaked at best player in the game.

Comparing championships when they’re team/franchise achievements also makes little sense. Too many factors.
Comparing stats also make little sense considering the game of basketball changes every x years basically.

I think when comparing across generations, you can only consider players from the same position and do some thought experiments.

[ShannonWright]

Comparing across positions and generations really makes little sense. They both peaked at best player in the game.

Comparing championships when they’re team/franchise achievements also makes little sense. Too many factors.
Comparing stats also make little sense considering the game of basketball changes every x years basically.

I think when comparing across generations, you can only consider players from the same position and do some thought experiments.

/thread

[ScrantonBulls]

Comparing across positions and generations really makes little sense. They both peaked at best player in the game.

Comparing championships when they’re team/franchise achievements also makes little sense. Too many factors.
Comparing stats also make little sense considering the game of basketball changes every x years basically.

I think when comparing across generations, you can only consider players from the same position and do some thought experiments.

well said. The thread starter literally understands none of this, lol. You know somebody's argument is a joke when they simply compare rings across generations without any context.

[PassMeTheBall]

Comparing across positions and generations really makes little sense. They both peaked at best player in the game.

Comparing championships when they’re team/franchise achievements also makes little sense. Too many factors.
Comparing stats also make little sense considering the game of basketball changes every x years basically.

I think when comparing across generations, you can only consider players from the same position and do some thought experiments.

well said. The thread starter literally understands none of this, lol. You know somebody's argument is a joke when they simply compare rings across generations without any context.

Yeah the context is Lebron needed superteams to win 3 out of his 4 rings & his other was the bubble title. Context is Kareem won in his 2nd year in the league with an old Oscar while Lebron needed two #1 option caliber players on both the Heat & Cavs to win. Than he colluded to get AD when he was at his peak due to them both being with Klutch Sports. You sound like yet another annoyed poster angry by the poll results. You do realize not everyone thinks Lebron is the greatest or in 2nd right? People have their own opinions.

Also, Lebron got to play in the weakest Eastern Conference since the 70s to steamroll through the weak conference while by far having the best teammates from 2012-2017. 2011 was his only year when he made the Finals that had good competition but he needed a super team to get past an aging Celtics team while Kobe beat them without needing one. He also wanted Kawhi to join the Lakers right after he won the title with the Raptors & he wanted to add Nash to the Heat after he lost in 2011.

[ScrantonBulls]

Comparing across positions and generations really makes little sense. They both peaked at best player in the game.

Comparing championships when they’re team/franchise achievements also makes little sense. Too many factors.
Comparing stats also make little sense considering the game of basketball changes every x years basically.

I think when comparing across generations, you can only consider players from the same position and do some thought experiments.

well said. The thread starter literally understands none of this, lol. You know somebody's argument is a joke when they simply compare rings across generations without any context.

Yeah the context is Lebron needed superteams to win 3 out of his 4 rings & his other was the bubble title. Context is Kareem won in his 2nd year in the league with an old Oscar while Lebron needed two #1 option caliber players on both the Heat & Cavs to win. Than he colluded to get AD when he was at his peak due to them both being with Klutch Sports. You sound like yet another annoyed poster angry by the poll results. You do realize not everyone thinks Lebron is the greatest or in 2nd right? People have their own opinions.

Also, Lebron got to play in the weakest Eastern Conference since the 70s to steamroll through the weak conference while by far having the best teammates from 2012-2017. 2011 was his only year when he made the Finals that had good competition but he needed a super team to get past an aging Celtics team while Kobe beat them without needing one. He also wanted Kawhi to join the Lakers right after he won the title with the Raptors & he wanted to add Nash to the Heat after he lost in 2011.

SuParTeAm! ColLuSiOn!1

[afarmenian]

A better argument is why do we bother to compare Centers to Wings or even point guards for that matter. It's a terrible debate hopelessly futile and it's time to evolve these horrible comparisons.

Kareem vs Lebron....why not compare Babe Ruth to Randy Johnson while we are at it. Tom Brady vs Jim Brown why the hell not

I'm not sure if your mad at the comparison because the majority here view Kareem as greater than Lebron since you're clearly biased towards a certain player as a Cleveland fan? Majority of fans have their own top 10 lists so I'm not sure what the problem is with the comparison. Any top 10 all time list is a comparison with all other players/positions. Boxing has official Pound for Pound lists based on every weight class where a welterweight would obviously never compete against a Heavyweight yet they still do them.

Insinuating someone's opinion isn't valid because of a unproven bias is about as low brow as it gets. You have no idea my feelings or opinions about Lebron and to make that ridiculous conclusion is frankly childish. My thoughts on the matter wouldnt change if it were a Kobe Shaq Jordan Hakeem debate.

You seem to have a pattern of attacking anyone's opinion on this debate with lazy accusations of bias. You should try contributing something of substance rather continuing this pattern of resorting to the lowest common denominator. cavs fans hold have a pretty wide spectrum of feelings and opinions on Lebron so you should probably drop these ridiculous assumptions as it makes you look silly by insinuating we all worship the ground he walks on.

As another has said you aren't someone to take seriously.

[Green89]

MJ or LeBron that's the only debate for LeBron.

Jordan is in his own tier than Lebron is on the tier with Kareem & some others.

Jordan is not in his own tier. We literally been debating MJ or LeBron for a decade.

You just wake up out of coma bro? It's 2024 LeBron is the all-time leading scorer. You know the guy who had the record Kareem?

LeBron>Kareem and it ain't even up for debate.

Kareem hit exactly one three pointer in his career. Lebron needed to make over 2400 three pointers to score more than KAJ. Kareem currently has 1,000 more made baskets than Lebron and played 1 less season.

[PassMeTheBall]

A better argument is why do we bother to compare Centers to Wings or even point guards for that matter. It's a terrible debate hopelessly futile and it's time to evolve these horrible comparisons.

Kareem vs Lebron....why not compare Babe Ruth to Randy Johnson while we are at it. Tom Brady vs Jim Brown why the hell not

I'm not sure if your mad at the comparison because the majority here view Kareem as greater than Lebron since you're clearly biased towards a certain player as a Cleveland fan? Majority of fans have their own top 10 lists so I'm not sure what the problem is with the comparison. Any top 10 all time list is a comparison with all other players/positions. Boxing has official Pound for Pound lists based on every weight class where a welterweight would obviously never compete against a Heavyweight yet they still do them.

Insinuating someone's opinion isn't valid because of a unproven bias is about as low brow as it gets. You have no idea my feelings or opinions about Lebron and to make that ridiculous conclusion is frankly childish. My thoughts on the matter wouldnt change if it were a Kobe Shaq Jordan Hakeem debate.

You seem to have a pattern of attacking anyone's opinion on this debate with lazy accusations of bias. You should try contributing something of substance rather continuing this pattern of resorting to the lowest common denominator. cavs fans hold have a pretty wide spectrum of feelings and opinions on Lebron so you should probably drop these ridiculous assumptions as it makes you look silly by insinuating we all worship the ground he walks on.

As another has said you aren't someone to take seriously.

First of all I'm not attacking anyone's opinion it's some others here attacking mine. You're the one that pretty much trashed mine & the thread topic in general with your hostile sounding post due to the comparison. You're a Cavs fan so unless you're one of those angry Cavs fans that still are mad at him for going to Miami than I'm like 99% sure you're a fan of his. Again, we can debate all players which is why top 10 lists exist in the first place. A lot of sports fans & NBA players rank players all the time. That's your problem if you don't like it since it's always a very popular discussion. You could have clearly ignored the thread if you don't like the topic instead of wasting your time replying with disdain.

Just you saying you can't take me seriously shows me you seriously hate the results of the poll & also for me not having Lebron as one of the top 3 greatest. Both you & the other poster have Cavs tags under your usernames. I wonder why both of you are so angry.... Can't be a coincidence. I also never insulted you like you did me so you're the one that clearly let other people's opinions get the best of you.

[Genjuro]

This kind of stuff is usually very debatable... but I'm still surprised that so many people consider Kareem over LeBron.

LeBron would've never, not even close, missed the playoffs at his prime, as bad as his teammates would've been, and we have proof of what he could do with a pathetic supporting cast during his first Cavs stint. Kareem at 28 years old couldn't lead the Lakers to the playoffs in 1976 or have a winning record despite playing the whole 82 games and averaging 41 minutes while getting the MVP in a pre-merger diluted NBA. I understand the team had won only 30 games the previous season, but an improvement of just 10 games is kind of disappointing.

As for the rings, we can't ignore the superstars Kareem had next to him (or the ones LeBron had himself) and his status in those teams. Kareem was at best three times the first option of a championship team, more likely just twice. He won three/four championships as second banana, which matters, but much less when we're debating ATGs. LeBron was the clear-cut leader of his four rings.

This is a world of difference IMO.

You used your words wisely for the 2020 ring. AD played just as good as Lebron was in 2020 or arguably even better. Lebron was considered the leader but AD was better in the season & he was better against the Blazers & Rockets in the playoffs.

I have the opposite mindset where I don't see how Lebron is ahead of Kareem. Kareem has more rings, MVPs, greater defender, would have at minimum 3 DPOTY awards if they were given out throughout his entire career. Has more individual season leader awards while James only has 1 scoring title & 1 assists title. Even if you want to mention longevity, Kareem is top 3 all time in points, rebounds & in official blocks. Lebron should have 5 MVPs at best while Kareem should realistically have 8 or 9. The main one of contention for James is the one Rose won but I think the reason Rose won was due to 2 of his 3 main teammates were out for long stretches of the 2011 Season & Rose still carried the team to the best record in the league. James also needed to join up with two #1 option players to win his first few rings. If James was the best player in the league why did he need to join up with a #1 option player that already won on his own? Not saying Kobe is better than James, but why could Kobe beat the Celtics without a superteam but James couldn't? James took the easiest way out he possibly could to beating his strongest competition. You could say Kareem had Magic, but Kareem still won on his own with an aging Oscar in his 2nd season & took a very good Celtics team in his 5th season to 7 games while James played horrible & got swept against the Spurs in his 4th season. You could probably make a case that James was a better overall basketball player in terms of skill but he definitely isn't greater.

- Oscar Robertson was aging so much when they won the title that he was voted 5th in MVP.

- As much as James needed to join other stars to win, Kareem won all his jewlery with stars as well. I would understand your comment if we were taking about Hakeem, but not Jabbar.

- 9 MVPs for Kareem? The only ones there's a debate are 1970's won by Willis Reed, who led the Knicks to the best record but just four games better than the Bucks (Kareem was a rookie), and 1973's won by Dave Cowens the year the Celtics stormed the league with 68 wins (the Bucks had 60). So 8 MVPs at the very best. On the other hand, his 1976 MVP with a losing record is highly debatable as well. Let's say 7-5 should've been the final tally for them.

- In his 5th season Kareem was four and a half years older than James was during his 4th. How can you compare?

[JustBuzzin]

Jordan is in his own tier than Lebron is on the tier with Kareem & some others.

Jordan is not in his own tier. We literally been debating MJ or LeBron for a decade.

You just wake up out of coma bro? It's 2024 LeBron is the all-time leading scorer. You know the guy who had the record Kareem?

LeBron>Kareem and it ain't even up for debate.

Kareem hit exactly one three pointer in his career. Lebron needed to make over 2400 three pointers to score more than KAJ. Kareem currently has 1,000 more made baskets than Lebron and played 1 less season.

Men lie, women lie, #1 all-time scoring list doesn't.

[KrAzY3]

Love or hate LeBron he is on his own tier

Of longevity? Sure, I can buy that...

But peak, great as in at their greatest? Even the stuff you posted has nothing to do with peak...

LeBron had one of the greatest peaks in NBA history. That's not even really something that needs to be debated.

Yeah sure, but that doesn't put him in his own tier, it puts him in a tier with the other players with great peaks...