Do you think Pippen ever deserved 1b status on a title team?

[Cavsfansince84]

I think Pippen usually always gets slotted in as a #2 on all those Bulls teams but I'm curious if anyone thinks he has a case for 1b status on any of those teams that won rings. This isn't to try and diminish MJ so let's not go there. Just something I thought would be interesting to discuss. I also think its interesting because 1b/2 status seems to almost always boil down to ppg since the 70's unless its a defensive big(like Wallace on Det or Duncan in 2014). With Pippen though we have a guy who is doing some scoring, playing all world wing defense and some playmaking while being great in transition so there's a lot of value there.

[Ian Scuffling]

I don't think so. Obviously, he was the head of the defensive snake for the Bulls, though. But, Jordan was just so damned good on the offensive end and they relied on him so much. OTOH, the Bulls didn't suck when Jordan retired. Actually, they were still very good when led by Pippen. ****, I may have just talked myself out of my first comment So, I'm down to, "I'm not sure".

[Texas Chuck]

I don't know what 1b versus 2 means except unfortunately to those with the agenda you are looking to avoid.

But Pippen was instrumental in the Bulls dynasty and deserves a ton of flowers. It doesn't have to be a him versus Mike thing. Mike was obviously the main reason, but he wasn't doing it without Pip. And that's okay. It doesn't make Mike any less great I assure everyone.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't know what 1b versus 2 means except unfortunately to those with the agenda you are looking to avoid.

But Pippen was instrumental in the Bulls dynasty and deserves a ton of flowers. It doesn't have to be a him versus Mike thing. Mike was obviously the main reason, but he wasn't doing it without Pip. And that's okay. It doesn't make Mike any less great I assure everyone.

This isn't meant to be a Pippen vs Mike thing. I do think 1b status vs #2 is a pretty common sort of terminology and discussion that goes on here though. Such as Kobe on the 3peat is usually given 1b status for the last two. It's basically a matter of perception with some subjectivity thrown in. Just thought it would be worth discussing since you almost never hear Pippen ever described as a 1b and I think its almost never really discussed tbh.

[Djoker]

Jordan carried so much of a bigger offensive load and had several tiers greater offensive impact that I don't think one can call Pippen a 1b. He was a clear #2 player on those title teams.

[AEnigma]

I think he and those teams were good enough that downgrading Jordan to Drexler or Miller could have him as a title-winning 1a or 1b depending on the year, and he was an above average #2 (among post-merger champions, would only potentially consider 1980/1982 Magic, 1985 Kareem, 1999 Robinson, 2001/02 Kobe, 2005 Manu, 2017/18 Durant, and 2020 Davis above his best postseasons), but to me 1b means people are willing to debate you above the 1a, and that was never true for Pippen.

[RCM88x]

On the teams he actually played for? No, I don't think he was ever a true 1b.

Now a fun exercise would be to argue what guys who were good enough to be a 1a (in a no-MJ environment I guess) on a title team during that era that Pippen could be a 1b to.

Magic, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Miller, Malone, Payton, are all in that category I guess. I think he definitely could have been a 1b in some of those arrangements.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think he and those teams were good enough that downgrading Jordan to Drexler or Miller could have him as a title-winning 1a or 1b depending on the year, and he was an above average #2 (among post-merger champions, would only potentially consider 1980/1982 Magic, 1985 Kareem, 1999 Robinson, 2001/02 Kobe, 2005 Manu, 2017/18 Durant, and 2020 Davis above his best postseasons), but to me 1b means people are willing to debate you above the 1a, and that was never true for Pippen.

idk about the bolded part personally because I think often the 1b guy isn't really argued above the 1a guy but he's still good enough to deserve the 1b label. Such as with 01-02 Kobe, 80/82 Magic or 12 Wade(maybe even 16 Kyrie who some call a 1b). I don't recall seeing much of any case for them being 1a's but I think its fine with all of those to say they were 1b's. The only case I ever see for Kobe is that he was more valuable in a few playoffs series. I think there can be a clear distinction between a 1a&b but its just a matter of recognizing how valuable or good the 1b was. Generally speaking if a guy is widely as seen as top 10 in the league they probably have a case for being a 1b though I can definitely understand people saying Pippen was never.

[AEnigma]

2012 Wade did absolutely nothing to deserve that label. 2016 Kyrie did specifically as a scorer… for two games.

Kobe gets the 2001 claim because you can argue him above Shaq easily enough. Tougher in 2002, which is why you see it less, but he was great against the Spurs, and he was great the following year, so easy enough to slide it over.

1980 Magic gets it because he won the Finals without Kareem. 1982 Magic gets it because… he deserved it in much the way 2001 Kobe did.

Pippen never won Finals MVP (contrast with 2008 Pierce, 2017/18 Durant, and all the non-1987 Showtime titles). He never finished top five four in MVP voting when Jordan was on the team (contrast with Kobe doing so with Shaq). Great player, but definitionally a 1b means you are right there with the 1a, and Pippen was not and certainly was never perceived that way.

[Cavsfansince84]

2012 Wade did absolutely nothing to deserve that label. 2016 Kyrie did specifically as a scorer… for two games.

Kobe gets the 2001 claim because you can argue him above Shaq easily enough. Tougher in 2002, which is why you see it less, but he was great against the Spurs, and he was great the following year, so easy enough to slide it over.

1980 Magic gets it because he won the Finals without Kareem. 1982 Magic gets it because… he deserved it in much the way 2001 Kobe did.

Pippen never won Finals MVP (contrast with 2008 Pierce, 2017/18 Durant, and all the non-1987 Showtime titles). He never finished top five in MVP voting when Jordan was on the team (contrast with Kobe doing so with Shaq). Great player, but definitionally a 1b means you are right there with the 1a, and Pippen was not and certainly was never perceived that way.

I think you make some valid points here though personally I don't really buy into elevating players based on like 1 playoff series. I think for this purpose the rs is generally more reliable in terms of deciding whether a player was a 1b or a 2 though I think everyone is free to decide in their own way. Also, Pippen was top 5 in the 96 mvp vote.

[AEnigma]

Did not recall that, although I think Jordan winning MVP with like 90% of the share or whatever it was still paints a clear picture of their respective perceptions.

[lessthanjake]

What is the conceptual difference between a #2 and a #1b? I think most people would say that what distinguishes the 1b is that that player actually has a genuine argument for being the team’s best player. Under that framework, Pippen was absolutely not a 1b on the Bulls. But if you define the difference between a #2 and #1b in some different way, then I guess it’s possible. It’d take a definition of things that’s not how most people think of it though, IMO.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I've never seen 1B) used as you are suggesting. Is a 1B to you, someone who could be a #1 on a championship team? I've only seen that phrase be used to argue a player is in 1A guy's tier.

[TheGOATRises007]

When I think of 1B, I think of Kevin Durant or Kobe Bryant.

Pippen isn't really in that tier.

[Cavsfansince84]

I've never seen 1B) used as you are suggesting. Is a 1B to you, someone who could be a #1 on a championship team? I've only seen that phrase be used to argue a player is in 1A guy's tier.

tbh, I'm not really convinced he has a season where he could be seen as 1b. I just throwing this out there for discussion. It's a hard thing to nail down precisely but that's sort of what the purpose of this thread is. MJ may have been too much better than Pippen to consider him a 1b on any of those teams.

[ShotCreator]

Without ever having thought about it too much, I would think 1A/1B would be 16 Curry/Draymond, 18 Harden/Paul, 20 LeBron/AD. A true coinflip on who is gonna be the best player in any given playoff series.

There are no coins to flip. Pippen had some up down years on health and motor and he played next to probably the most consistent, dominant player in NBA history.

And that's assuming Pippen was close anyway. Which I don't think he ever was.

I often wonder about Pippen's offense. I don't think he was Ben Simmons offensively but I say a Westbrook is just tiered up over him on defense pressure. Kyrie isn't Westbrook level offensively either. But is he better than Pippen on that end? Is Kyrie with the defensive ability of SAY, Patrick Beverley better than Pippen? And is that player better than Stockton? My gut says no.

But Pippen is commonly thought of as a better peak play guy than Stockton. And I just don't believe it as of now.

[Modulate]

I think 1b is kind of a fancy, generous way of saying #2.

[migya]

On the teams he actually played for? No, I don't think he was ever a true 1b.

Now a fun exercise would be to argue what guys who were good enough to be a 1a (in a no-MJ environment I guess) on a title team during that era that Pippen could be a 1b to.

Magic, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Miller, Malone, Payton, are all in that category I guess. I think he definitely could have been a 1b in some of those arrangements.

You place Pippen on similar talented teams with those others stars you mentioned from that era and they likely don't win anything. Pippen was a very good playmaker and defender but his scoring never really was high level much at all.

In the case of mentioned #2s on championship teams; Kobe always played well in the playoffs when Shaq was there and was clutch most of the time. The defense couldn't collapse on Shaq all the time because Kobe made them pay enough. Kyrie scored much more than the Warriors' highest scorer in the 2016 finals, almost as much as Lebron. They don't come close to winning that if he didn't play as good as he did. AD on Lakers 2020, particularly in finals was probably better than Lebron.

Pippen fit perfectly with Jordan and with such little talent on his team surrounding him and another star besides Jordan it's unlikely to have succeeded.

[70sFan]

No.

[OhayoKD]

I've never seen 1B) used as you are suggesting. Is a 1B to you, someone who could be a #1 on a championship team? I've only seen that phrase be used to argue a player is in 1A guy's tier.

tbh, I'm not really convinced he has a season where he could be seen as 1b. I just throwing this out there for discussion. It's a hard thing to nail down precisely but that's sort of what the purpose of this thread is. MJ may have been too much better than Pippen to consider him a 1b on any of those teams.

KD also has never done anything to justify being treated in a different category as Pippen beyond longetivity.

Either way, Pippen was never a threat to Jordan individually in the title runs beyond maybe a series. At the same time it's obvious he was capable of being a #1 based on 1994 and 1995 given a very good team(which is what KD needed to be the #1 in 2018)