All things Anfernee Simons

[eyriq]

Out trade assets are actually valuable pieces to us.

WCJ, Cole, and JI are very useful. Trading them to fill a need (starting guard) that can otherwise be filled with pre-extension cap space (Monk, Klay, Hield, Tyus, Russell) only makes sense if the trade target is clearly better.

Simons (or Murray) aren't clearly better. Trae though? Now we are cooking.

[RichCollab]

Out trade assets are actually valuable pieces to us.

WCJ, Cole, and JI are very useful. Trading them to fill a need (starting guard) that can otherwise be filled with pre-extension cap space (Monk, Klay, Hield, Tyus, Russell) only makes sense if the trade target is clearly better.

Simons (or Murray) aren't clearly better. Trae though? Now we are cooking.

Murray from my perspective could be better than most other options. I would even right him over Trae.

He could really check all the boxes.

My biggest concern would be personality fit. Which can go really bad.

[Rainwater]

Monk is the riskiest of the three and I don’t think it’s close. People are hoping that Monk can accomplish things that Simons and Murray have already done. Simons and Murray (on multiple teams) have been led guys on the perimeter while Monk has never been. If monk fails after signing him and just becomes a 6th man for the magic that would be disastrous since the magic need a starting guard on the perimeter badly and they won’t have cap space like this for a while.

And why do you keep saying that Portland fans hate Simons, I would say a majority fans love the guy. He literally was their best player last year. And Murray and Trae were literally on a podcast together talking about how the media fabricated their beef. Trae was even the one who advocated for the trade of Murray.

I can buy that Monk is the riskiest of the three in terms of on-court production, but I really feel you have to factor in the fact that Monk would only cost cap space, whereas Simons and Murray would cost trade assets *and* more in salary over the next four years.

What's a better long-term outlook?

Monk + All available trade assets + maximum cap flexibility over the next 4 years

or

Simons/Murray - several trade assets - maximum cap flexibility over the next 4 years

I would go with the second option. I just feel like if Simons or Murray can provide what the Magic need, the loss of the assets means very little. You still should have cap space to fill other needs.

[Rainwater]

Monk is the riskiest? That seems a bit absurd.

Can move to the bench as 6 man and doesn’t cost us assets.

Won’t be as big of hit salary wise.

How do you not see signing a guy who has never been a lead guy on a perimeter to be that guy for the Magic as not risky especially when his best years only came when he was a sixth man.

If he fails as the lead guy and just becomes a 6th man that would be disastrous for the magic because they would still have a need on the perimeter. (And getting a sixth man is not a need for this team and kinda redundant with Cole already here). And the same assets you were trying to save you would have to use to get that perimeter guy.

I will say it again, with Paolo and Franz already here they don’t have to go after experiments hoping they hit another level. Get someone who is established and has already done it. No more Fultz, Bol, and AG guys, this team is past that point.

[CocoaFan]

Monk is the riskiest? That seems a bit absurd.

Can move to the bench as 6 man and doesn’t cost us assets.

Won’t be as big of hit salary wise.

How do you not see signing a guy who has never been a led guy on a perimeter to be that guy for the Magic as not risky especially when his best years only came when he was a sixth man.

If he fails as the led guy and just becomes a 6th man that would be disastrous for the magic because they would still have a need on the perimeter. (And getting a sixth man is not a need for this team and kinda redundant with Cole already here). And the same assets you were trying to save you would have to use to get that perimeter guy.

I will say it again, with Paolo and Franz already here they don’t have to go after experiments hoping they hit another level. Get someone who is established and has already done it. No more Fultz, Bol, and AG guys, this team is past that point.

I think you are really overvaluing Simons and making the assumption he is the perfect lead guard for the Magic. Go read "Will Simons Request a Trade" on Portland board. The majority of fans don't view him as a core piece and would be very happy with a straight up Simons for Black trade. He's always been more of a undersized SG than a lead guard. With all this discussion in a perfect world I think Murray is the best fit for the Magic and I think Simons and Monk are close in ability but Monk won't cost you the assets Simons will.

[Rainwater]

Monk is the riskiest? That seems a bit absurd.

Can move to the bench as 6 man and doesn’t cost us assets.

Won’t be as big of hit salary wise.

How do you not see signing a guy who has never been a led guy on a perimeter to be that guy for the Magic as not risky especially when his best years only came when he was a sixth man.

If he fails as the led guy and just becomes a 6th man that would be disastrous for the magic because they would still have a need on the perimeter. (And getting a sixth man is not a need for this team and kinda redundant with Cole already here). And the same assets you were trying to save you would have to use to get that perimeter guy.

I will say it again, with Paolo and Franz already here they don’t have to go after experiments hoping they hit another level. Get someone who is established and has already done it. No more Fultz, Bol, and AG guys, this team is past that point.

I think you are really overvaluing Simons and making the assumption he is the perfect lead guard for the Magic. Go read "Will Simons Request a Trade" on Portland board. The majority of fans don't view him as a core piece and would be very happy with a straight up Simons for Black trade. He's always been more of an undersized SG than a lead guard. With all this discussion in a perfect world I think Murray is the best fit for the Magic and I think Simons and Monk are close in ability but Monk won't cost you the assets Simons will.

If you read the thread most are not saying that Simons sucks or something (as you make seem) he just doesn’t fit in Portland. They already have Scoot and Sharpe and Simons is not a first option. Funny enough,many are saying he would be a perfect fit in Orlando. That would go against your argument he would be terrible here.

Here are some quotes:

I like this thread — because I agree with the thinking — and came to this same question as Ant won’t beat out Sharpe at 2, is too young to be Ginobli, is Dame Jr., and Scoot will be a better PG next year.

Ant’s a stud shooter who gets his own shot, BUT doesn’t fit (IMHO) moving forward. AND he has value right now.

That’s actually why I’ve at least entertained the idea of drafting Sheppard if he falls to our 13 or 14th spot … but not other PGs. Okay, so maybe Topic if someone else really wanted Scoot and sent their Top 3 or so pick to get a top forward as well. But I’m not greedy or anything.

Hopefully he will keep his mouth shut and not demand to get traded to one team, which in his case might be Orlando.

Blazers as they did with Jrue Holiday, will take care of him

Orlando would be a great destination. They have the defensive talent to mask Simons' shortcomings defensively. But the truth that Blazer fans seem reluctant to admit is that a Scoot/Sharpe back court is not ready for prime time. The best chance of being remotely competitive is to start Brogdon/Simons. And yes, that is a flawed back court. Just less flawed than Scoot/Sharpe next season.

I totally agree w the Orlando fit.

All I care about personally is more picks, and maybe try to squeeze Wendell carter out of them.

Ant is def worth keeping for me personally between him and Shaedon.. higher offensive peak for me atm but it doesn’t appear he’s preferred at this point. I still value him highly and wouldn’t trade him for anything but fair value.

Even Portland fans think he should be here if traded, lol. Simons’ issues in Portland reminds me of AG’s problems when in Orlando. The issue is not talent but fit and expectations.

The mere fact Portland fans want to trade him to a team where he can excel should tell you how much they respect the guy.

[CocoaFan]

How do you not see signing a guy who has never been a led guy on a perimeter to be that guy for the Magic as not risky especially when his best years only came when he was a sixth man.

If he fails as the led guy and just becomes a 6th man that would be disastrous for the magic because they would still have a need on the perimeter. (And getting a sixth man is not a need for this team and kinda redundant with Cole already here). And the same assets you were trying to save you would have to use to get that perimeter guy.

I will say it again, with Paolo and Franz already here they don’t have to go after experiments hoping they hit another level. Get someone who is established and has already done it. No more Fultz, Bol, and AG guys, this team is past that point.

I think you are really overvaluing Simons and making the assumption he is the perfect lead guard for the Magic. Go read "Will Simons Request a Trade" on Portland board. The majority of fans don't view him as a core piece and would be very happy with a straight up Simons for Black trade. He's always been more of an undersized SG than a lead guard. With all this discussion in a perfect world I think Murray is the best fit for the Magic and I think Simons and Monk are close in ability but Monk won't cost you the assets Simons will.

If you read the thread most are not saying that Simons sucks or something he just doesn’t fit in Portland. They already have Scoot and Sharpe and Simons is not a first option. Funny enough,many are saying he would be a perfect fit in Orlando. That would go against your argument he would be terrible here.

Here are some quotes:

I like this thread — because I agree with the thinking — and came to this same question as Ant won’t beat out Sharpe at 2, is too young to be Ginobli, is Dame Jr., and Scoot will be a better PG next year.

Ant’s a stud shooter who gets his own shot, BUT doesn’t fit (IMHO) moving forward. AND he has value right now.

That’s actually why I’ve at least entertained the idea of drafting Sheppard if he falls to our 13 or 14th spot … but not other PGs. Okay, so maybe Topic if someone else really wanted Scoot and sent their Top 3 or so pick to get a top forward as well. But I’m not greedy or anything.

”

Hopefully he will keep his mouth shut and not demand to get traded to one team, which in his case might be Orlando.

Blazers as they did with Jrue Holiday, will take care of him

Orlando would be a great destination. They have the defensive talent to mask Simons' shortcomings defensively. But the truth that Blazer fans seem reluctant to admit is that a Scoot/Sharpe back court is not ready for prime time. The best chance of being remotely competitive is to start Brogdon/Simons. And yes, that is a flawed back court. Just less flawed than Scoot/Sharpe next season.

I totally agree w the Orlando fit.

All I care about personally is more picks, and maybe try to squeeze Wendell carter out of them.

Ant is def worth keeping for me personally between him and Shaedon.. higher offensive peak for me atm but it doesn’t appear he’s preferred at this point. I still value him highly and wouldn’t trade him for anything but fair value.

Even Portland fans think he should be here if traded, lol.

I think you are trying to create a narrative that makes you feel better about your position by saying things like "I hate Simons" or "I think Simons sucks". I never said anything like that and if our front office thinks Simons is the guy I'm all for it. I was just pointing out that Simons isn't the perfect lead guard for the Magic and giving up assets to get him doesn't make a lot of sense to me when Monk has similar abilities. Fans on the Sacramento board think Monk is a great fit for Orlando too and they're worried we're going to grab him. I didn't see the same worried response on the Portland board.

[Rainwater]

I think you are really overvaluing Simons and making the assumption he is the perfect lead guard for the Magic. Go read "Will Simons Request a Trade" on Portland board. The majority of fans don't view him as a core piece and would be very happy with a straight up Simons for Black trade. He's always been more of an undersized SG than a lead guard. With all this discussion in a perfect world I think Murray is the best fit for the Magic and I think Simons and Monk are close in ability but Monk won't cost you the assets Simons will.

If you read the thread most are not saying that Simons sucks or something he just doesn’t fit in Portland. They already have Scoot and Sharpe and Simons is not a first option. Funny enough,many are saying he would be a perfect fit in Orlando. That would go against your argument he would be terrible here.

Here are some quotes:

I like this thread — because I agree with the thinking — and came to this same question as Ant won’t beat out Sharpe at 2, is too young to be Ginobli, is Dame Jr., and Scoot will be a better PG next year.

Ant’s a stud shooter who gets his own shot, BUT doesn’t fit (IMHO) moving forward. AND he has value right now.

That’s actually why I’ve at least entertained the idea of drafting Sheppard if he falls to our 13 or 14th spot … but not other PGs. Okay, so maybe Topic if someone else really wanted Scoot and sent their Top 3 or so pick to get a top forward as well. But I’m not greedy or anything.

”

Hopefully he will keep his mouth shut and not demand to get traded to one team, which in his case might be Orlando.

Blazers as they did with Jrue Holiday, will take care of him

Orlando would be a great destination. They have the defensive talent to mask Simons' shortcomings defensively. But the truth that Blazer fans seem reluctant to admit is that a Scoot/Sharpe back court is not ready for prime time. The best chance of being remotely competitive is to start Brogdon/Simons. And yes, that is a flawed back court. Just less flawed than Scoot/Sharpe next season.

I totally agree w the Orlando fit.

All I care about personally is more picks, and maybe try to squeeze Wendell carter out of them.

Ant is def worth keeping for me personally between him and Shaedon.. higher offensive peak for me atm but it doesn’t appear he’s preferred at this point. I still value him highly and wouldn’t trade him for anything but fair value.

Even Portland fans think he should be here if traded, lol.

I think you are trying to create a narrative that makes you feel better about your position by saying things like "I hate Simons" or "I think Simons sucks". I never said anything like that and if our front office thinks Simons is the guy I'm all for it. I was just pointing out that Simons isn't the perfect lead guard for the Magic and giving up assets to get him doesn't make a lot of sense to me when Monk has similar abilities. Fans on the Sacramento board think Monk is a great fit for Orlando too and they're worried we're going to grab him. I didn't see the same worried response on the Portland board.

Your literal words were

If you read threads on Portland board they don't view Simons very highly

That is not what the thread indicates and when you say something like that the assumption is that Simons lacks talent. However, if you read the actual thread, the real issue is that he no longer fits. And just because he doesn’t fit in Portland doesn’t mean he won’t fit in Orlando.

Me posting quotes of Portland fans was to show that they actually view him highly to go along with the idea that many believe he would be a great fit here which you disagree with.

Monk is a 6th man and was a poor starter when attempted. The experiment was tried in LA and failed, why try again?

Quick edit: you were right about Portland’s love for Black, lol. I feel like Portland fans are higher on him than Magic fabs are but to be fair he may fit there better.

[RichCollab]

Monk is the riskiest? That seems a bit absurd.

Can move to the bench as 6 man and doesn’t cost us assets.

Won’t be as big of hit salary wise.

How do you not see signing a guy who has never been a lead guy on a perimeter to be that guy for the Magic as not risky especially when his best years only came when he was a sixth man.

If he fails as the lead guy and just becomes a 6th man that would be disastrous for the magic because they would still have a need on the perimeter. (And getting a sixth man is not a need for this team and kinda redundant with Cole already here). And the same assets you were trying to save you would have to use to get that perimeter guy.

I will say it again, with Paolo and Franz already here they don’t have to go after experiments hoping they hit another level. Get someone who is established and has already done it. No more Fultz, Bol, and AG guys, this team is past that point.

Monk not working out is a setback for sure but again you didn’t gamble the house.

I also believe his potential impact could be sizable. He has a good mix of play making, self creation, and shooting. We need all of those from that position. He isn’t going to come in and need to be an alpha dog.

He in my opinion plays in crunch time and shows up when Fox is out. I don’t see his transition to lead guard with a team that has a superstar and great player that doesn’t over lap with him. Any salary under 25 million isn’t going to kill you and again if it goes bad you still get one of the best 6th man in the league.

No one has given any good arguments on why this could turn disastrous.

[Rainwater]

Monk is the riskiest? That seems a bit absurd.

Can move to the bench as 6 man and doesn’t cost us assets.

Won’t be as big of hit salary wise.

How do you not see signing a guy who has never been a lead guy on a perimeter to be that guy for the Magic as not risky especially when his best years only came when he was a sixth man.

If he fails as the lead guy and just becomes a 6th man that would be disastrous for the magic because they would still have a need on the perimeter. (And getting a sixth man is not a need for this team and kinda redundant with Cole already here). And the same assets you were trying to save you would have to use to get that perimeter guy.

I will say it again, with Paolo and Franz already here they don’t have to go after experiments hoping they hit another level. Get someone who is established and has already done it. No more Fultz, Bol, and AG guys, this team is past that point.

Monk not working out is a setback for sure but again you didn’t gamble the house.

I also believe his potential impact could be sizable. He has a good mix of play making, self creation, and shooting. We need all of those from that position. He isn’t going to come in and need to be an alpha dog.

He in my opinion plays in crunch time and shows up when Fox is out. I don’t see his transition to lead guard with a team that has a superstar and great player that doesn’t over lap with him. Any salary under 25 million isn’t going to kill you and again if it goes bad you still get one of the best 6th man in the league.

No one was given any good arguments on why this could turn disastrous.

You may disagree but signing a guy to be a lead guard when he may only be a 6th man when that team badly needs a lead guard is disastrous. That still leaves a hole on the perimeter in the starting unit. What you just did was overpay for a sixth man, something the Magic doesn’t even need.

[Bensational]

I don't really understand where you get this confidence, but I hope you're right. Same goes for AB.

Yeah, I don’t see it either. Howard has never had the handles that Simons or Monk has and has never been the creator either. Howard has mostly been used as a spot up shooter even in college. The scoring ability that Simons is something you have coming in.

It's just very uncommon for a player to make the leaps being expected by some. It's not impossible, but I don't see what reasons people have for expecting the uncommon outcome in this situation.

I think you guys are forgetting where Monk and Simons started before they became their current versions. They made the leap, but it took them 4 years each before either looked like anything of significance - and this is coming from someone who was really high on Simons in that draft.

Jett has a controlled handle, a quick release on his shot with a soft touch, and high IQ. When I say he’ll have an offense to compete with them, I’m saying that within the context of the team. I don’t think either of Simons or Monk are true lead ballhandlers and floor generals, I see them as shooters who can also put the ball on the floor and make a pass if the defense gives them an opening. Jett has shown that he can also do that, he just needs time and minutes to develop - same as them.

[Residual-Heat]

a team without its superstar (and the money that would be with used on other players) and also decimated by injuries. Im not putting all those losses on him. also took him a little to become a starter as he was behind CJ and was a very young draft pick.

Im not blaming all the losses on him but if we're going to give him credit for being a "starter" lets look at the full picture.

Im not sure Simons would start on most winning teams. You could say the same for Monk though.

his elite shooting to me could have him on quite a few winning teams.

hes an undersized SG.

[Catledge]

Yeah, I don’t see it either. Howard has never had the handles that Simons or Monk has and has never been the creator either. Howard has mostly been used as a spot up shooter even in college. The scoring ability that Simons is something you have coming in.

It's just very uncommon for a player to make the leaps being expected by some. It's not impossible, but I don't see what reasons people have for expecting the uncommon outcome in this situation.

I think you guys are forgetting where Monk and Simons started before they became their current versions.

I am definitely not forgetting that. Rather, I'm aware that many more players than the two of them didn't develop over that same span of time, and I had no way of telling which two were going to develop like Monk and Simons have and which two were going to be Mario Hezonja and Elfrid Payton. That's why I'm willing to pay more for the guys who have already developed instead of rolling the dice with guys who haven't and may not develop.

I'm just asking for a realistic awareness that most guys don't develop like we want them to.

[Bensational]

It's just very uncommon for a player to make the leaps being expected by some. It's not impossible, but I don't see what reasons people have for expecting the uncommon outcome in this situation.

I think you guys are forgetting where Monk and Simons started before they became their current versions.

I am definitely not forgetting that. Rather, I'm aware that many more players than the two of them didn't develop over that same span of time, and I had no way of telling which two were going to develop like Monk and Simons have and which two were going to be Mario Hezonja and Elfrid Payton. That's why I'm willing to pay more for the guys who have already developed instead of rolling the dice with guys who haven't and may not develop.

I'm just asking for a realistic awareness that most guys don't develop like we want them to.

Sure, but the same can be said about player acquisition, too. How do we know which player additions will push a team into a higher level of play and who will disrupt it? Ie, Atlanta has only gotten worse since the addition of Murray, Beal did nothing for Phoenix, Vuc basically destroyed Chicago’s future, Kemba derailed the early success of Tatum and Brown. Meanwhile Joe Ingles helped us get up to the 5th seed from a bench role, Aaron Gordon pushed Denver into contention and helped them win a ring. Realistic awareness says not all player acquisitions are equal or beneficial, too.

There is risk either way. Proven ability is one way to mitigate the risk, but chemistry is another. Howard is already a part of the chemistry of the team (not on court chemistry). I’m not opposed to either of Monk or Simons, I just think Howard is worthy of investing in either way.

[tiderulz]

Im not blaming all the losses on him but if we're going to give him credit for being a "starter" lets look at the full picture.

Im not sure Simons would start on most winning teams. You could say the same for Monk though.

his elite shooting to me could have him on quite a few winning teams.

hes an undersized SG.

so is Donovan Mitchell, CJ, Monk is 6'3, and a bunch at 6'4, but Simon has better wingspan than most.

[tiderulz]

I think you are really overvaluing Simons and making the assumption he is the perfect lead guard for the Magic. Go read "Will Simons Request a Trade" on Portland board. The majority of fans don't view him as a core piece and would be very happy with a straight up Simons for Black trade. He's always been more of an undersized SG than a lead guard. With all this discussion in a perfect world I think Murray is the best fit for the Magic and I think Simons and Monk are close in ability but Monk won't cost you the assets Simons will.

If you read the thread most are not saying that Simons sucks or something he just doesn’t fit in Portland. They already have Scoot and Sharpe and Simons is not a first option. Funny enough,many are saying he would be a perfect fit in Orlando. That would go against your argument he would be terrible here.

Here are some quotes:

I like this thread — because I agree with the thinking — and came to this same question as Ant won’t beat out Sharpe at 2, is too young to be Ginobli, is Dame Jr., and Scoot will be a better PG next year.

Ant’s a stud shooter who gets his own shot, BUT doesn’t fit (IMHO) moving forward. AND he has value right now.

That’s actually why I’ve at least entertained the idea of drafting Sheppard if he falls to our 13 or 14th spot … but not other PGs. Okay, so maybe Topic if someone else really wanted Scoot and sent their Top 3 or so pick to get a top forward as well. But I’m not greedy or anything.

”

Hopefully he will keep his mouth shut and not demand to get traded to one team, which in his case might be Orlando.

Blazers as they did with Jrue Holiday, will take care of him

Orlando would be a great destination. They have the defensive talent to mask Simons' shortcomings defensively. But the truth that Blazer fans seem reluctant to admit is that a Scoot/Sharpe back court is not ready for prime time. The best chance of being remotely competitive is to start Brogdon/Simons. And yes, that is a flawed back court. Just less flawed than Scoot/Sharpe next season.

I totally agree w the Orlando fit.

All I care about personally is more picks, and maybe try to squeeze Wendell carter out of them.

Ant is def worth keeping for me personally between him and Shaedon.. higher offensive peak for me atm but it doesn’t appear he’s preferred at this point. I still value him highly and wouldn’t trade him for anything but fair value.

Even Portland fans think he should be here if traded, lol.

I think you are trying to create a narrative that makes you feel better about your position by saying things like "I hate Simons" or "I think Simons sucks". I never said anything like that and if our front office thinks Simons is the guy I'm all for it. I was just pointing out that Simons isn't the perfect lead guard for the Magic and giving up assets to get him doesn't make a lot of sense to me when Monk has similar abilities. Fans on the Sacramento board think Monk is a great fit for Orlando too and they're worried we're going to grab him. I didn't see the same worried response on the Portland board.

Most Sacramento fans ive read, think Monk is in his perfect role and that if Orlando pays more to get him to come and put him in a lead guard role, we will regret it

[Residual-Heat]

his elite shooting to me could have him on quite a few winning teams.

hes an undersized SG.

so is Donovan Mitchell, CJ, Monk is 6'3, and a bunch at 6'4, but Simon has better wingspan than most.

Mitchell is 215 lbs, while Simons is 180. its not all about height.

[Audi]

Im not blaming all the losses on him but if we're going to give him credit for being a "starter" lets look at the full picture.

Im not sure Simons would start on most winning teams. You could say the same for Monk though.

his elite shooting to me could have him on quite a few winning teams.

hes an undersized SG.

A fact that still hasn’t prevented him from shooting 3s at an elite clip, while demanding on & off ball gravity at such a high degree that he ranks amongst all stars and future hof players.

[tiderulz]

hes an undersized SG.

so is Donovan Mitchell, CJ, Monk is 6'3, and a bunch at 6'4, but Simon has better wingspan than most.

Mitchell is 215 lbs, while Simons is 180. its not all about height.

Dejounte Murray is 6'5 180 lbs, guess he is too light. Jalen Green only 186, Caruso at 186. is he light? yes. but his game isnt an inside game, so 180 lbs isnt a death sentence

[Skybox]

[quote="Catledge"]

I'm just asking for a realistic awareness that most guys don't develop like we want them to.[/quote]

Not going to find that here…I’m especially enjoying hearing about how exceptional Jett’s BBIQ, passing, and ballhandling are…despite the fact that he was backing up McClung’s MVP campaign all season Did we learn these things from a Weltman press conference? I’m not saying he doesn’t have those things (someday) but there’s zero on-court evidence thus far that he and AB are these amazing prospects. I’m amazed at how specific and certain these accolades are - when they’re just hopeful projections of what we wish them to become…We’ve got the luxury of adding players that ARE good without ditching our players that MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT BE good.