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Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024

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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#101 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 3:15 pm

Almost Retired wrote:It's ironic that the jealous thug and lesbian players are out to destroy their cash cow.


Hold up there, pard. While it would be naive to claim that race, sexual orientation and other cultural distinctions are not in part responsible for both extremes of the love (from fans) and hate (from former players, current players and coaches), it’s absurd to say it’s only “thugs and lesbians” who are being negative.

To be clear, on an emotional AND intellectual level it’s very understandable why lesbian and black players (and black lesbian players) in a league with a very high population of both lesbian and black players would be angry that people are only paying attention to their lifetime of hard work because the new star is a pretty straight white girl rookie.

It’s just that you’d think they’d understand being hated on for being different, which Clark is this narrow context, and treat her like a colleague rather than as an especially hated pariah.

Just watch Carter’s embarrassing press conference after the game if you don’t think this conduct is personal.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#102 » by League Circles » Sun Jun 2, 2024 3:22 pm

Caitlin Clark is pretty???

I'm sure there are various motivations by everyone involved, but IMO, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, and casual basketball fans love them some pure jumpshooting / skill-based magic from not-huge players. Smaller skill-based players have always gotten disproportionate attention from fans, including the NBA. It's why you see much more love in real-time for players like Iverson, Nash, Curry, etc than for Shaq (which was absurd). It's why anyone knows Trae Young's name.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#103 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 3:22 pm

Almost Retired wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/jason-whitlock-why-caitlin-clark-will-have-a-very-short-wnba-career/ar-BB1ni0rB


Whitlock is such a sellout POS. He’s right about the hate, but no way he writes an article saying the rookie star will quit in 1-3 years due to the mental toll if we were talking about a man. Stay in the echo chamber where you belong, Whit.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#104 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 3:43 pm

League Circles wrote:Caitlin Clark is pretty???



It’s subjective and my personal opinion is irrelevant. But that is a media/social media narrative, which is what is driving the negativity. When she ends up photographed looking dressed up and glamorous (because unlike someone like Reese whose persona is in part built on beauty and glamour) social media goes nuts about how beautiful she is. She also has a handsome boyfriend from a basketball royalty family, which is also frequently talked about.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#105 » by Almost Retired » Sun Jun 2, 2024 5:04 pm

jc23 wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:I don’t watch the WNBA (horrendous product) but is this the norm in that league? Is it usually 1980s Pistons style basketball?

[x]
Read on Twitter
?s=46&t=i_8-izbVPdpOEjGAJD0Ojw[/x]


officiating is pretty bad. They will go long stretches of letting extremely physical play go by and then call a ticky tack foul. That play in question was poor sportsmanship as was Reeces celebration of it. Chuck might be right about some of these women.

They need to lower the physicality of the game and encourage the skilled aspect of it.

more of this please. less of the video above.


If we want to see women bash each other there is probably a channel somewhere that features Women's Roller Derby. The WNBA needs to emphasize skillful basketball. I think casual fans got enamored about Clark's passing and Logo 3s. Thug basketball is going to turn those casual fans away as fast as they arrived if it keeps up. The WNBA averaged 6615 paying customers per game last year. And the players flew coach. Thanks to Clark and a few other publicized rookies attendance is way up. Viewership of games on TV is way up. What's going on now is beyond hazing of the new kid. It's thuggery brought on by jealousy. If a blind sided hit or a well placed elbow knocks Clark out for any period of time attendance and TV market shares are going to drop, and the whole league will suffer. The league can either embrace Clark and her style of play and ride the wave, or it can condone thuggery and go back to being a fringe sport that barely pays its players a living wage.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#106 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 5:29 pm

ChiefILL53 wrote:The attention that Clark is bringing is great, but people are about to be insufferable with these awful takes


All you really have to do is listen to Carter’s childish press conference to know it’s personally motivated. She said “I ain’t answering no question about Caitlin Clark” and was about to say more things a 9 year old would say before her coach or teammate stage-left told her to shut up.

Regardless, trying to minimize what she did in one isolated play is irrelevant. It’s not just about the extra physicality and cheap shots, it’s not just about the persistent commentary from many former and current players, it’s about the whole picture. A’Ja Wilson even acknowledged she’s bitter because she thinks Clark is popular because of race (not like we needed her to acknowledge it - and not like she’s even wrong that it’s a very real part of it).

The best thing that ever happened to the women of the WNBA since its founding is Clark, and there are way too many current and former players throwing baby fits for the last 4 months about it happening.

But it will pass and the boots will be licked. Including by the haters who will later jockey for position to earn in her wake and hope to land on her team.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#107 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 5:38 pm

Turning the page, with the Fever’s terrible roster and poor start it would be really freaking cool to end up seeing Bueckers (my favorite) and Clark share the Indiana backcourt for years. That would make for some fun hoops.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#108 » by nomorezorro » Sun Jun 2, 2024 6:04 pm

DuckIII wrote:The best thing that ever happened to the women of the WNBA since its founding is Clark, and there are way too many current and former players throwing baby fits for the last 4 months about it happening.


the current players are literally competitors with her! if you took basically any group of active professional athletes and presented them with a prospect who attracts an inordinate amount of media attention and is hailed as a savior of the sport, someone who is uniquely good at the game they all make a living playing, i'm pretty confident you're going to generate a lot of resentment toward that person.

she's gonna get other people's best efforts, she's gonna get pot shots in the press, and she's gonna sometimes eat a hard screen or an elbow. it's part of being a transcendent athlete who plays a physical game, and it's not a phenomenon unique to caitlin clark. (the expectation that her opponents should be expressing gratitude toward her, on the other hand...)
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#109 » by Almost Retired » Sun Jun 2, 2024 6:17 pm

nomorezorro wrote:
DuckIII wrote:The best thing that ever happened to the women of the WNBA since its founding is Clark, and there are way too many current and former players throwing baby fits for the last 4 months about it happening.


the current players are literally competitors with her! if you took basically any group of active professional athletes and presented them with a prospect who attracts an inordinate amount of media attention and is hailed as a savior of the sport, someone who is uniquely good at the game they all make a living playing, i'm pretty confident you're going to generate a lot of resentment toward that person.

she's gonna get other people's best efforts, she's gonna get pot shots in the press, and she's gonna sometimes eat a hard screen or an elbow. it's part of being a transcendent athlete who plays a physical game, and it's not a phenomenon unique to caitlin clark. (the expectation that her opponents should be expressing gratitude toward her, on the other hand...)


I think even Clark would acknowledge that things can happen in games that are inadvertent and that's not the problem. It's the deliberate targeting with actions that have nothing to do with basketball. The blind sided hits. The unnecessary high elbows. The league would be wise to crack down on those types of deliberate fouls. Start dishing out Flagrant 2 fouls and suspensions. When it costs a few goons some money maybe they can tone it down a notch. If Clark gets hurt by one of these cheap plays the whole league is going to suffer financially.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#110 » by SalmonsSuperfan » Sun Jun 2, 2024 6:31 pm

nomorezorro wrote:chennedy carter had a much better game than caitlin clark

the two were chirping at each other for a while, carter took a cheap shot, it happens. people making a crisis out of a hip check is exhausting

they're taking these cheap shots at specifically her every game and celebrating like they just won the game. how about the player that shot a free throw, went and got in Clark's face, then remembered she had another one to shoot and sheepishly walked back down to the free throw line? who looks good in these situations and who looks like a jealous little baby? also, where's the enforcer on her team standing up to this ****?
very funny video by the way: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0ELVJjGSsVs

there isn't an analog to the NBA, like you claim. Were guys seeking out LeBron, Zion, Wembanyama, Luka solely because they were highly-touted and highly-marketed prospects? of course not, nba players have roles to play, basketball games to win, they're not jealous of rookies. I'm also taking about Angel Reese cheering and laughing on the bench like a punk. There is this contrived Angel Reese vs Caitlin Clark 'rivalry' that exists on twitter and it's basically just a stupid analogy for a race war. The players are twitter-brained, of course, and so Clark is an analogy for white supremacy instead of just a talented basketball player, for some reason. I like how people in this country have re-imagined Apartheid, only now its progressive to be segregated and it's activist work to judge people based on their skin color rather than on their actions. I digress but it's clearly related.

oh yeah I'm going to watch the Mercury today. "merk the mercury" might be my chant if I was a Sparks fan. Is Lisa Leslie still on that team? there's some star power. is Britney home from Moscow?
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#111 » by nomorezorro » Sun Jun 2, 2024 6:40 pm

i don't know why you're conflating people paying a ton of defensive attention to clark with a cheap shot (that again, happened as part of the flow of the game rather than some attack borne solely out of premeditated disdain for clark), but then again there's a lot of weird stuff in that post, so
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#112 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 7:30 pm

nomorezorro wrote:i don't know why you're conflating people paying a ton of defensive attention to clark with a cheap shot (that again, happened as part of the flow of the game rather than some attack borne solely out of premeditated disdain for clark), but then again there's a lot of weird stuff in that post, so


Flow of the game? I’ve got to remember this happened against the Sky and this is a Sky thread.

They were jawing back and forth. It was a contested game. Thats all great and part of competition. But screaming “hey bitch!” at a player in a dead ball situation 90 feet from the rim and knocking her to the ground with blindsided shot from behind is not in the flow of the game. You know that.

Then combine it with the press conference and all the other player comments? Come on nomo, you know there’s no “this happens all the time to rooks” equivalency here. Find one example that isn’t someone like Jackie Robinson or a black quarterback 30+ years ago.

No one is saying they shouldn’t be trying to kick her ass and make her look foolish as a basketball player for purely in-game basketball reasons. Trying to pretend this is just that doesn’t pass the smell test at all.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#113 » by wojoaderge » Sun Jun 2, 2024 7:48 pm

Chennedy, please don't lose your cool. Please don't give the dog whistlers who have never heard of you before yesterday more ammo. You might be the best player on the team. You're possibly the fastest player in the league with the quickest first step. Your synergy with Kamilla was every inspiring. Try to keep it together.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#114 » by nomorezorro » Sun Jun 2, 2024 8:04 pm

i'm not saying that it wasn't an unwarranted cheap shot, or that clark's presence as a media figure/top player didn't factor into it at all, just that it didn't happen out of nowhere. they were guarding each other; clark had jawed at her on the immediately preceding possession. it was inflamed by stuff that happened on the basketball court.

this stuff happens. and it sucks for clark that some players are going to dislike her for things that are largely out of her control, which is going to make her more likely to be the target of something like this. i just think there are a ton of dynamics at play that are feeding into people's desire to make this a bigger deal than it actually is, when at the end of the day it was a basketball player getting hot and committing a flagrant foul.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#115 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 8:25 pm

nomorezorro wrote:
DuckIII wrote:The best thing that ever happened to the women of the WNBA since its founding is Clark, and there are way too many current and former players throwing baby fits for the last 4 months about it happening.


the current players are literally competitors with her!


Which is why they should go at her as hard as they can to win the games exactly like they would any other player.

if you took basically any group of active professional athletes and presented them with a prospect who attracts an inordinate amount of media attention and is hailed as a savior of the sport, someone who is uniquely good at the game they all make a living playing, i'm pretty confident you're going to generate a lot of resentment toward that person.


Well its an interesting year for that proposition, isn't it? Clark and Wemby. Would you like to make a one to one comparison on that one? I will since it pretty powerfully supports my point, but it kind of goes without saying doesn't it? Wasn't the most dramatic Wemby event that time Brittney Spears tried to touch him?

Regardless, yes you absolutely expect in a professional environment that a highly touted rookie is going to get at least some "extra attention". No doubt. People are calling Caleb Williams a Mahomes level talent. He's going to get some extra love for that no doubt. Though football and basketball aren't exactly equals on the cheap shots. They are an inherent part of basically every football play, whether they should be or not.

Regardless, getting back to the specifics there are obvious distinctions with Clark. You have former all time greats at minimum diminishing her and at worst aggressively downgrading her achievements (including with several outright lies). Before she even leaves college. You have former league MVPs taking shots at her in the press, including A'Ja Wilson acknowledge her anger at Clark being popular because she's white. Which is a pretty significant oversimplification, but also a big part why she's popular. Find me the modern day comparable here.

she's gonna get other people's best efforts, she's gonna get pot shots in the press, and she's gonna sometimes eat a hard screen or an elbow. it's part of being a transcendent athlete who plays a physical game, and it's not a phenomenon unique to caitlin clark.


That is all part of that. But as outlined above, this is something very different than merely that. Very, very different, with many more layers.

(the expectation that her opponents should be expressing gratitude toward her, on the other hand...)


I don't know if that's a twitter thing or not. Its certainly a stupid concept, which would make it par for the course in non-specific mass consumption social media. I don't think anyone in here is saying that anyone in the WNBA should outwardly express any gratitude towards Caitlin Clark at all. I'm certainly not saying that. The issue is the outright hostility and vitriol toward what is literally the one person in the entire human race who has ever been capable of making the world care about what you do for an entertainment-based living. Whose success is contingent on human beings caring enough about what you do to pay to watch you do it.

Its downright bizarre. And if its not, please cite the many examples it would require to establish that this is a common state of affairs in your typical hazing of a touted rookie.

I'll finish with this. Its also fascinating from a social perspective to see in America what one could argue (and I do actually believe) is in part a backlash from decades of mistreatment of and disregard for gay and black women by mainstream white America. The resentment that exists in the WNBA - and it exists, but its certainly not universal within the league - that the savior of their league is a white straight girl from Iowa, is to me perfectly understandable. I just wish they would be bigger about it for their own good and the good of the whole product. Its just an ugly turn of events that, in part, exists because of prior and much more serious and widespread ugliness.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#116 » by ChiefILL53 » Sun Jun 2, 2024 8:29 pm

SalmonsSuperfan wrote:they're taking these cheap shots at specifically her every game and celebrating like they just won the game. how about the player that shot a free throw, went and got in Clark's face, then remembered she had another one to shoot and sheepishly walked back down to the free throw line? who looks good in these situations and who looks like a jealous little baby? also, where's the enforcer on her team standing up to this ****?
very funny video by the way: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0ELVJjGSsVs


That wasnt her getting in Clark's face to challenge her, that was the Stephen Curry like attention that Clark brings so when she made the FT, she thought immediately she needed to guard Clark from leaking out, forgetting that she still had another FT to shoot.

DuckIII wrote:All you really have to do is listen to Carter’s childish press conference to know it’s personally motivated. She said “I ain’t answering no question about Caitlin Clark” and was about to say more things a 9 year old would say before her coach or teammate stage-left told her to shut up.


But that's in Carter's right to not answer any questions she doesnt want to lol. People on twitter were complaining that she's not being held accountable, but theyre not Coach Spoon, they dont know what she told her in that locker room. Seeing the play before, where Clark swipes at her (some people online are saying it was elbow) and staring at her after a score, yea Ima be a lil annoyed and you might get popped next time down. Now, Im not sayin what Carter did was right, she needs to know how to control herself, but lets not act like Clark is being targeted like the media is making it seem. Rookies have been getting done like this for ages. It's just in this case, this particular rookie is bringing a lot of BRAND NEW eyes to the sport, so they dont realize this is how it is. To me, it's a non issue and the new eyes are overblowing stuff cuz they're unfamiliar with the product. The W has been physical for a while now, they get chippy just like the men do. Clark is also a trash talker herself, so she should be very well aware that it might go down that route depending on the person.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#117 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 8:30 pm

nomorezorro wrote:i'm not saying that it wasn't an unwarranted cheap shot, or that clark's presence as a media figure/top player didn't factor into it at all, just that it didn't happen out of nowhere. they were guarding each other; clark had jawed at her on the immediately preceding possession. it was inflamed by stuff that happened on the basketball court.

this stuff happens. and it sucks for clark that some players are going to dislike her for things that are largely out of her control, which is going to make her more likely to be the target of something like this. i just think there are a ton of dynamics at play that are feeding into people's desire to make this a bigger deal than it actually is, when at the end of the day it was a basketball player getting hot and committing a flagrant foul.


And all of that would be a perfectly adequate explanation for that individual play. But we aren't really talking about just that individual play.

And yes, race, sex, class, perception, and jealousy, it all has to do with a whole lot of people's motivations in how and why they are acting the way they act. Fans, players, media, former players. Its really interesting in the way that many unfortunate things can also be.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#118 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 8:44 pm

ChiefILL53 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:All you really have to do is listen to Carter’s childish press conference to know it’s personally motivated. She said “I ain’t answering no question about Caitlin Clark” and was about to say more things a 9 year old would say before her coach or teammate stage-left told her to shut up.


But that's in Carter's right to not answer any questions she doesnt want to lol.


Absolutely right. Irrelevant. But correct. Her response and angry refusal to even discuss Caitlyn Clark is her statement of her feelings about Caitlyn Clark. Particularly when coupled with her screaming at her that she's a bitch and knocking her to the ground from behind her back about an hour earlier.

The rest of this post is just that same false equivalency "this happens with touted rookies all the time, ho-hum" stuff I addressed earlier, which is very easily provably untrue. If I'm wrong, please provide the details of the oh so many comparable situations that don't date back to days of overt racism against blacks and gays.

This hostility is atypical and we all know it.
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#119 » by nomorezorro » Sun Jun 2, 2024 9:02 pm

re: duck - i think there was a lot of silly media commentary surrounding clark, and those people should be criticized because their job is to do quality sports analysis. (although low-quality sports analysis diminishing the accomplishments of modern players isn't exactly uncommon in this day and age!)

i was separating that from the players because their job isn't to be objective or rational when it comes to the Hot Young Thing in their sport. and the thing that came to mind for me specifically that echoed what we've seen with clark was lebron, whose own teammates were petty and dismissive of his ability:

While Carlos Boozer acknowledged that James had great potential, he sniffed, "We have players better than him in his position already on our team.'' Darius Miles openly questioned how LeBron would have a major impact but offered to allow him to "just hop on our bandwagon.'' ...

As the season continued, and the abilities of the eventual Rookie of the Year became apparent, Silas would pull his veterans aside and implore them to embrace the cerebral 19-year-old.

"Their egos wouldn't allow it," Silas said. "I kept telling them, 'You have a chance to help one of the game's future stars,' but they wouldn't embrace him. If it bothered LeBron, he never let on. We won 35 games that year because of him. He's had some outstanding seasons since then, but that first one may have been the most impressive because of how he excelled in spite of the jealousy on his own team."


i can recall similar guff directed toward bryce harper, too. obviously you're not going to get a perfect 1:1 comparison with clark, because the men's major sports are just not going to have a rookie who suddenly becomes the primary prism through which a significant part of the fanbase views the league. (plus you're less likely to have the same race dynamics in play — although you saw it flare up around jokic last year — and you're definitely not going to have the gender dynamic in play)

but ultimately, as a now-insane person once said, "there'll always be haters; that's the way it is." and i just don't think 95% of the stuff around clark has exited the realm of normal-ass hating
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Re: Chicago Sky/WNBA thread 2024 

Post#120 » by DuckIII » Sun Jun 2, 2024 9:18 pm

nomorezorro wrote:re: duck - i think there was a lot of silly media commentary surrounding clark, and those people should be criticized because their job is to do quality sports analysis. (although low-quality sports analysis diminishing the accomplishments of modern players isn't exactly uncommon in this day and age!)

i was separating that from the players because their job isn't to be objective or rational when it comes to the Hot Young Thing in their sport. and the thing that came to mind for me specifically that echoed what we've seen with clark was lebron, whose own teammates were petty and dismissive of his ability:

While Carlos Boozer acknowledged that James had great potential, he sniffed, "We have players better than him in his position already on our team.'' Darius Miles openly questioned how LeBron would have a major impact but offered to allow him to "just hop on our bandwagon.'' ...

As the season continued, and the abilities of the eventual Rookie of the Year became apparent, Silas would pull his veterans aside and implore them to embrace the cerebral 19-year-old.

"Their egos wouldn't allow it," Silas said. "I kept telling them, 'You have a chance to help one of the game's future stars,' but they wouldn't embrace him. If it bothered LeBron, he never let on. We won 35 games that year because of him. He's had some outstanding seasons since then, but that first one may have been the most impressive because of how he excelled in spite of the jealousy on his own team."


i can recall similar guff directed toward bryce harper, too. obviously you're not going to get a perfect 1:1 comparison with clark, because the men's major sports are just not going to have a rookie who suddenly becomes the primary prism through which a significant part of the fanbase views the league. (plus you're less likely to have the same race dynamics in play — although you saw it flare up around jokic last year — and you're definitely not going to have the gender dynamic in play)

but ultimately, as a now-insane person once said, "there'll always be haters; that's the way it is." and i just don't think 95% of the stuff around clark has exited the realm of normal-ass hating


Those are examples of pettiness, but they aren't comparables. The dynamic in play there is very narrow and specific player self preservation. LeBron was coming to take jobs, and a couple of guys tried to be tough. But the "controversy" here is limited to within the team and for a very clear reason: individual pride and economics.

Clark's situation involves society. It involves the biggest names in her sport, both current and former. Who are not her teammates and who, unlike Darius Miles, has no specific personal job-related reason to act out about it. As noted repeatedly, its the opposite.
Her presence is a historic and immeasurable benefit to them all. Its happening on the court and playing out in interviews in words coming straight from the source. It is completely different ground. I bet it was tough to even find those arguable two, which don't even apply. That shows just how unique this is.
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