Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[Gusto1903]

Its a shame, that Prime Kobe had to drag Smush Parker, Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown to the playoffs

[dhsilv2]

I dont see where he is notably better offensively? More efficient? Yea, but notably better, i dont see it….if you take probably the 3 best years for both;

Leonard
26.6 7.3 3.3 on 50/37/85 OBPM 7.5 with a TS%58
27.1 7.1 4.9 on 47/37/88 OBPM 6.4 with a TS%57
24.8 6.5 5.2 on 51/39/88 OBPM 5.2 with a TS% 56

Bryant
35.4 5.3 4.5 on 45/35/85 OBPM 6.1 with a TS%60
31.6 5.7 5.4 on 46/34/84 OBPM 6.5 with a TS%58
28.3 6.3 5.4 on 46/36/84 OBPM 6.0 with a TS%62


Kobe was way more dependable too. But offensively Leonard was more efficient from the field and from 3 but there isnt some large gap.

In 2017 Kawhi put up 39/9/5 per 100, 121 Ortg and 610 TS% in the RS, and a ridiculous 40/11/7, 136 Ortg and 672 TS% in the playoffs.

You tell me the year Kobe had you want to put against it. 2009 is often cited as his best year, so I've used those numbers below. Happy to hear a different year floated:

Kobe: 38/7/7 per 100, 115 Ortg, on 561. TS% in the RS. As you can see Kawhi eats his lunch. In the playoffs it's even worse. Kobe's numbers are 39/7/7, 117 Ortg on 564 TS%, way behind Kawhi.

I think you like the “per 100” more than i do. Why dont we go off what they actually did when they were on the court rather than go by “what might have been”? Instead of arguing the numbers and statistics that i pulled from basketball reference you jump to “per 100” which is imo a flawed analysis. As you can see their numbers are similar, their actual numbers for their best 3 years and Kobe played more games. Leonard has never been able to stay on the court.

Since one and done didn't quote you.

Per 100 is great to compare cross era, but we should be fair with it. Kobe outside of 2002 and 2009 (I'd argue his best two teams) played top 20 minutes per game. Leonard hit the top 20 once. Now kobe shows no real improvement in play with less minutes in advanced metrics so the idea Kobe's stats dropped due to minutes doesn't have support. Still we never saw Leonard play higher minutes so it's more than fair to be skeptical of some of his success is due to lower minutes.

Now what we don't want to do.

1. Compare minutes per game vs different eras. It's harder to play more minutes today.
2. Compare per game stats between eras, pace is too wildly different.
3. Compare TS% across eras, rule changes have 100% changed TS% just as much as better analytics leading to better shots. This is especially true with stars who still use the mid range just as much as ever, unlike non stars who have turned into 3 and dunk specialists.

TL/DR

Leonard peaked regular season in 2017 at 38.9 PTS100 8.9 TRB100 and 5.4 AST100 with a TS%+ of 111

Kobe I dunno what you consider his peak

2006
45.6 PTS100 6.8 TRB100 5.8 AST100 TS+ 104

2008
36.5 8.1 6.9 TS+ 107

Kobe on a bad team shows he can generate more scoring at a slightly above league average efficiency and on a contender he can generate slightly offense than Leonard at a pretty solid star level efficiency.

Leonard on a contender (we've never seen him on a 2006 lakes team) is a very efficient volume scorer on par with most of Kobe's best years, and certainly his best when on a contender.

Context on TS%+
Jordan was from 88-91 over 100, peaking at 114. With 7 years matching or passing Kobe's 2008 107
Dirk has 7 years of 110 or more and 12 years of 107 or better.
Bird 87 and 88 were 113 and 114 but for his career he was just 105. I'd add bird's per 100 in 88 was 37.6 pts so similar volume to these guys

Using Per 100 and raw TS% is misleading if you're using PER 100 to adjust for era but not adjusting TS% for era.

FYI additional qualifiers.

1. Leonard's minutes went up in the playoffs to near 40 with no change in TS% or per 100 scoring. This supports that his scoring frequency was not based on less minutes.
2. Kobe and Leonard's 2008 and 2009 vs 2017 and 2019 per 100 stats are very similar. Their changes from the playoffs to regular season also are similarly minimal with Kobe's volume going up a hair and Leonard showing a bit more efficiency. There's no reason to down play ether's regular season or playoff stats. They seem to be resiliant and comparable in those terms. I'd add I do demote leonard's efficiency spike in 2017 in the playoffs due to the early exit, otherwise he had a huge increase.
3. Someone said the era's make per 100 hard to compare. While we do see more teams today and even in 2017 using stars more frequently, a lot of that is just better basketball/coaching. Kobe and Leonard were neither heliocentric players. If this were Harden, Westbrook, or some similar player who benefits from these changes, I'd again see value in thinking about per 100 here. But here I don't see either playing in a style or team setting requiring large adjustments.

[CodeBreaker]

Kawhi’s 2019 run was significantly better *offensively* than any playoff run Kobe had. The guy was like the terminator drilling midrange over elite defenders like they weren’t even there.

Kobe was an extremely impressive player in that he would take extremely difficult shots and make them more than you would expect, but Kawhi would just take a dribble and nail a shot in your face.

2019 Kawhi over 2009 Kobe offensively?

[Petergrifindor]

Clearly Kawhi.

He was something like old MJ.

[bledredwine]

You can't take any poll on realgm with Kobe seriously until Lebron retires, because there will always be his fans coming in who purposefully underrate Kobe since Kobe was considered the better player until 2009.

Oh look, it's one of them who created this thread. No surprise.

[GiggitySmalls]

Wow this thread exists. It's gonna be a long offseason and finals haven't even started.

To answer the question is without a freaking doubt Kobe. Just stop. Op step away from the keyboard and just walk in the woods for a few hours and clear your mind.

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[GiggitySmalls]

Boi is ya sick?

Kobe and it ain't even close!

Peak easily Kawhi, career Kobe and it ain't close.

Nah give me peak Kobe.

More rings and the better player.

Y'all must forgot who Kobe is.

#MambaMentality

Bro, this thead shouldn't exist. Its Kobe and everyone who knows basketball knows its the truth. Seeing this thread title actually upset me a bit. It's like they forgot about Kobe or something. Completely nonsensical!

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[BarbaGrizz]

81 points >

[JustBuzzin]

Wow this thread exists. It's gonna be a long offseason and finals haven't even started.

To answer the question is without a freaking doubt Kobe. Just stop. Op step away from the keyboard and just walk in the woods for a few hours and clear your mind.

Sent from my SM-F936U using RealGM mobile app

Honestly nothing surprises me on this board anymore.

Some people just like attention.

[Kilroy]

Did Kawhi ever actually have a "peak"?... Seems to me, he had more of a "fluke"...

[MavsDirk41]

Kobe in the playoffs:
135-85
26/5/5
TS% 54.1
3 point pct 33%

Leonard in the playoffs:
87-52
21/8/3
TS% 62.1
3 point pct 39%


Leonard is a more efficient shooter for sure for sure and i think he is better defensively. But Kobe was the better scorer, passer, and had way more playoff success. Kobe was also way more durable. Kobe played all 82 for 4 seasons and played 80 2 other seasons. Leonard has never played 80 games in a season and only played 70 games or more in a season twice in his career. Kobe’s peak was higher/greater and much much longer. This is Kobe easily.

[Jabroni Lames]

A lot of posters don't understand the meaning of the word "peak".

[LaLover11]

This is like asking Modern Pippen or Modern MJ
People that enjoy a pass first overall team player will pick Kawhi

People that like the player that will take the winning shot every single game would pick KB

[dhsilv2]

This is like asking Modern Pippen or Modern MJ
People that enjoy a pass first overall team player will pick Kawhi

People that like the player that will take the winning shot every single game would pick KB

What? Leonard is a scorer. Kobe is the better play maker of the two. Leonard the better scorer. If you want a pass first guy...you don't take either of these guys.

[LaLover11]

This is like asking Modern Pippen or Modern MJ
People that enjoy a pass first overall team player will pick Kawhi

People that like the player that will take the winning shot every single game would pick KB

What? Leonard is a scorer. Kobe is the better play maker of the two. Leonard the better scorer. If you want a pass first guy...you don't take either of these guys.

Kawhi is the more complete team player and willing to give up his ego for the success of the team

Kawhi and Shaq would've worked out better than KB & Shaq. Shaq would've stayed with Lakers and had his Modern Pippen and won more than 3 rings together

If KB played with Pop and Duncan/Gino/TP he probably would've broke that team up.

They are both great but KB is definitely the scorer between the two and Kawhi is the 5 on 5 Team player

[dhsilv2]

This is like asking Modern Pippen or Modern MJ
People that enjoy a pass first overall team player will pick Kawhi

People that like the player that will take the winning shot every single game would pick KB

What? Leonard is a scorer. Kobe is the better play maker of the two. Leonard the better scorer. If you want a pass first guy...you don't take either of these guys.

Kawhi is the more complete team player and willing to give up his ego for the success of the team

Kawhi and Shaq would've worked out better than KB & Shaq. Shaq would've stayed with Lakers and had his Modern Pippen and won more than 3 rings together

If KB played with Pop and Duncan/Gino/TP he probably would've broke that team up.

They are both great but KB is definitely the scorer between the two and Kawhi is the 5 on 5 Team player

I've already broken this down. But again the playmaker and passer here is Kobe. Leonard's value on offense his him taking his own shot and catch and shoot plays. He's really not a very good passer and if not for his elite scoring, it would be a big problem for him. Leonard scores at huge volumes without play making. He's actually a less complete player on offense especially. His offense however is completely predicated around his iso strength and shot making ability. Which is goes as a considerably higher level than Kobe while not being able to punish the defense as well as Kobe could with his passing.

[LaLover11]

What? Leonard is a scorer. Kobe is the better play maker of the two. Leonard the better scorer. If you want a pass first guy...you don't take either of these guys.

Kawhi is the more complete team player and willing to give up his ego for the success of the team

Kawhi and Shaq would've worked out better than KB & Shaq. Shaq would've stayed with Lakers and had his Modern Pippen and won more than 3 rings together

If KB played with Pop and Duncan/Gino/TP he probably would've broke that team up.

They are both great but KB is definitely the scorer between the two and Kawhi is the 5 on 5 Team player

I've already broken this down. But again the playmaker and passer here is Kobe. Leonard's value on offense his him taking his own shot and catch and shoot plays. He's really not a very good passer and if not for his elite scoring, it would be a big problem for him. Leonard scores at huge volumes without play making. He's actually a less complete player on offense especially. His offense however is completely predicated around his iso strength and shot making ability. Which is goes as a considerably higher level than Kobe while not being able to punish the defense as well as Kobe could with his passing.

So you're pretty much saying KB is a better team player than a Prime Kawhi?

That can't be true

[dhsilv2]

Kawhi is the more complete team player and willing to give up his ego for the success of the team

Kawhi and Shaq would've worked out better than KB & Shaq. Shaq would've stayed with Lakers and had his Modern Pippen and won more than 3 rings together

If KB played with Pop and Duncan/Gino/TP he probably would've broke that team up.

They are both great but KB is definitely the scorer between the two and Kawhi is the 5 on 5 Team player

I've already broken this down. But again the playmaker and passer here is Kobe. Leonard's value on offense his him taking his own shot and catch and shoot plays. He's really not a very good passer and if not for his elite scoring, it would be a big problem for him. Leonard scores at huge volumes without play making. He's actually a less complete player on offense especially. His offense however is completely predicated around his iso strength and shot making ability. Which is goes as a considerably higher level than Kobe while not being able to punish the defense as well as Kobe could with his passing.

So you're pretty much saying KB is a better team player than a Prime Kawhi?

That can't be true

Well the gap on defense is pretty large here. And again Leonard is a considerably better scorer which is what I'm pointing out. That said, I'm not really want to argue about the two. Leonard's injury issues make it too hard for me to make a call on. I'd say Leonard's 2019 playoff run is likely better, but even then he was hurting in the finals.

[MavsDirk41]

I've already broken this down. But again the playmaker and passer here is Kobe. Leonard's value on offense his him taking his own shot and catch and shoot plays. He's really not a very good passer and if not for his elite scoring, it would be a big problem for him. Leonard scores at huge volumes without play making. He's actually a less complete player on offense especially. His offense however is completely predicated around his iso strength and shot making ability. Which is goes as a considerably higher level than Kobe while not being able to punish the defense as well as Kobe could with his passing.

So you're pretty much saying KB is a better team player than a Prime Kawhi?

That can't be true

Well the gap on defense is pretty large here. And again Leonard is a considerably better scorer which is what I'm pointing out. That said, I'm not really want to argue about the two. Leonard's injury issues make it too hard for me to make a call on. I'd say Leonard's 2019 playoff run is likely better, but even then he was hurting in the finals.

Leonard is/was a more efficient offensive player/shooter (from all over the court) but i dont see how you can say he is/was a considerably better scorer. In what way? More efficien? Yes of course, but that doesnt make him a superior scorer per se.

[LaLover11]

So you're pretty much saying KB is a better team player than a Prime Kawhi?

That can't be true

Well the gap on defense is pretty large here. And again Leonard is a considerably better scorer which is what I'm pointing out. That said, I'm not really want to argue about the two. Leonard's injury issues make it too hard for me to make a call on. I'd say Leonard's 2019 playoff run is likely better, but even then he was hurting in the finals.

Leonard is/was a more efficient offensive player/shooter (from all over the court) but i dont see how you can say he is/was a considerably better scorer. In what way? More efficien? Yes of course, but that doesnt make him a superior scorer per se.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say lol
Thanks Man