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[lilfishi22]

Luka has WAY more heart than someone like KD. I mean, I don't even think it should be a discussion.

KD has way more SNIPER than someone like Luka

ok....

[lilfishi22]

Suns could have had the greatest player they ever drafted in 50 plus years but they chose to build around Booker. Booker who led the worst Suns teams in history season after season. Great eye for talent and team building there owner and front office.

Blows my mind that Book gets the blow back for a monumental front office F up

[bwgood77]

Suns could have had the greatest player they ever drafted in 50 plus years but they chose to build around Booker. Booker who led the worst Suns teams in history season after season. Great eye for talent and team building there owner and front office.

Blows my mind that Book gets the blow back for a monumental front office F up

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

[lilfishi22]

Suns could have had the greatest player they ever drafted in 50 plus years but they chose to build around Booker. Booker who led the worst Suns teams in history season after season. Great eye for talent and team building there owner and front office.

Blows my mind that Book gets the blow back for a monumental front office F up

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

Book had been drinking age in the US for 7months when DA was drafted and McD is taking his and highly respected scout Josh Jackson for their pick? You can ask a 21 year old me about business decisions that would have a profound effect on the direction of my company and I'll 100% give you my opinion but if you take it, you're a damn fool

That's a front office F Up of the highest order

[Son of Ra]

People forget what KD was doing in the playoffs before he turned 25. Sure there's every chance Luka can surpass KD but the level of dismissal/discounting of KD as an elite player for a decade and a half because we overpaid for him and we haven't gotten the results we were hoping for is crazy

I don't think anyone (at least I'm not) is discrediting KD, he's absolutely an elite player historically and still is very good but that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't have "IT".

It's kind of a pointless argument because what even is "IT"? People can say it's heart or this or that but how one "measures" it is completely subjective.

As I said, Luka is really really good, absolutely amazing, I was all in on drafting Luka in 2018 and there isn't a week that doesn't go by where I don't think of the what-if in that draft but you're seriously discounting how good KD is/was, call it heart, call it "it", call it whatever you want, that dude was leading his team (which was younger with less NBA experience), to the Finals at 23, and did it all again at 27.

Dude I don't know, I assumed at this point anyone invested into any kind of sport knows what is meant by "IT" and I think you do too but I'll entertain you don't.

Jordan had "it", Kobe had "it", Schumacher had "it", Ronaldo had "it", etc etc. There are just some athletes that have a mental edge on everyone and that's why they are the best or amongst the best of their profession. They are willing to go farther than any other already very invested peer. They can't stand losing, go mad about it. They have a hunger and drive to win more than the rest etc. Jordan would still be seething over getting swept. I'm sure KD is "chilling" right now, might even be hooping but "It is what it is".
These guys are like the black knight in Monty Python without the comedic part. KD'd be done after the first stab.

I don't know why you're hung up on this being a Durant bash because it's not. I think Kobe is a very overrated player. KD is 100% the better player imo. But come playoff time I'm taking Kobe 10 out of 10 times. Game 7 of the finals on the line, who's your pick? I think we have enough evidence that KD is not the guy despite being the better player.

[bullsaficianado]

Suns could have had the greatest player they ever drafted in 50 plus years but they chose to build around Booker. Booker who led the worst Suns teams in history season after season. Great eye for talent and team building there owner and front office.

Blows my mind that Book gets the blow back for a monumental front office F up

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

That explains why Luka likes to get in his face and f__k with him.


Pretty sure Luka was expecting Suns to take him at #1.

[bwgood77]

Blows my mind that Book gets the blow back for a monumental front office F up

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

That explains why Luka likes to get in his face and f__k with him.


Pretty sure Luka was expecting Suns to take him at #1.

I don't know that he was expecting it. Our GM never even went to see him or anything. Our owner and GM did, and it was reported Sarver was enamored with Luka (I think he reminded him in ways of Nash, who he loved)...but McD said from day 1 he was drafting a big and only brought in 4 bigs. Pretty sure he would have taken Bagley if he had the #2 pick and Ayton went 1st. There was a quote from an anonymous GM..some national guy said it...that Luka reminded him of more of a Turkoglu type of player)...for some reason I always thought that was McD. The fanbase for the most part really wanted Ayton too, not that it should matter. I do think we were maybe considering Luka if we got the 3rd pick, which is maybe a reason we hired his coach....don't know...that happened before the lottery I believe.

There was also a rumor we were trying to get a second pick later down in the top 10 to take Shai...but we couldn't...we were able to trade for Mikal because Philly called us up when Zhaire Smith was still on the board for our pick...who Hinkie viewed as in a similar tier to Mikal and wanted our unprotected 21 first we had from Miami.

[lilfishi22]

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

That explains why Luka likes to get in his face and f__k with him.


Pretty sure Luka was expecting Suns to take him at #1.

I don't know that he was expecting it. Our GM never even went to see him or anything. Our owner and GM did, and it was reported Sarver was enamored with Luka (I think he reminded him in ways of Nash, who he loved)...but McD said from day 1 he was drafting a big and only brought in 4 bigs. Pretty sure he would have taken Bagley if he had the #2 pick and Ayton went 1st. There was a quote from an anonymous GM..some national guy said it...that Luka reminded him of more of a Turkoglu type of player)...for some reason I always thought that was McD. The fanbase for the most part really wanted Ayton too, not that it should matter. I do think we were maybe considering Luka if we got the 3rd pick, which is maybe a reason we hired his coach....don't know...that happened before the lottery I believe.

There was also a rumor we were trying to get a second pick later down in the top 10 to take Shai...but we couldn't...we were able to trade for Mikal because Philly called us up when Zhaire Smith was still on the board for our pick...who Hinkie viewed as in a similar tier to Mikal and wanted our unprotected 21 first we had from Miami.

There's so much conjecture and contradictory reporting following that draft, I just don't know what is and isn't real anymore or what to believe. Between hiring Kokoskov, then drafting DA, then all the reporting immediately following and then likely some spin from McD, it's just so confusing, I don't care anymore who wanted who because ultimately, when it comes down to a decision this big, I don't think it could've gotten done without Sarver's buy in. He's the guy at the very top and given how apparently hands on he had been in the front office, I don't really buy that McD could've made the decision of drafting DA or Luka without getting Sarver to buy into that idea.

I do think the Mikal deal was all McD though, so he deserves credit there

[bwgood77]

That explains why Luka likes to get in his face and f__k with him.


Pretty sure Luka was expecting Suns to take him at #1.

I don't know that he was expecting it. Our GM never even went to see him or anything. Our owner and GM did, and it was reported Sarver was enamored with Luka (I think he reminded him in ways of Nash, who he loved)...but McD said from day 1 he was drafting a big and only brought in 4 bigs. Pretty sure he would have taken Bagley if he had the #2 pick and Ayton went 1st. There was a quote from an anonymous GM..some national guy said it...that Luka reminded him of more of a Turkoglu type of player)...for some reason I always thought that was McD. The fanbase for the most part really wanted Ayton too, not that it should matter. I do think we were maybe considering Luka if we got the 3rd pick, which is maybe a reason we hired his coach....don't know...that happened before the lottery I believe.

There was also a rumor we were trying to get a second pick later down in the top 10 to take Shai...but we couldn't...we were able to trade for Mikal because Philly called us up when Zhaire Smith was still on the board for our pick...who Hinkie viewed as in a similar tier to Mikal and wanted our unprotected 21 first we had from Miami.

There's so much conjecture and contradictory reporting following that draft, I just don't know what is and isn't real anymore or what to believe. Between hiring Kokoskov, then drafting DA, then all the reporting immediately following and then likely some spin from McD, it's just so confusing, I don't care anymore who wanted who because ultimately, when it comes down to a decision this big, I don't think it could've gotten done without Sarver's buy in. He's the guy at the very top and given how apparently hands on he had been in the front office, I don't really buy that McD could've made the decision of drafting DA or Luka without getting Sarver to buy into that idea.

I do think the Mikal deal was all McD though, so he deserves credit there

Yeah, they said after the draft that all 3 agreed on the decision with Ayton. I do think from all the official reports from national guys, etc, at the time, though, that McD was the driver on the decision. There has been a ton of assumption and just people assuming "Sarver went to UofA, he must want to take a UofA guy". I think that's irrelevant, and if anything, being a UA fan, would have possibly given him hesitation because watching him in college didn't inspire a ton of confidence. But, at the same time, we wanted/needed a C, and McD was pushing it hard, and he was obviously higher thought of by everyone than Bamba, Carter, Bagley and even JJJ at the time. Bagley and Bamba were probably the next ones with hype, and they ended up being worse. Carter has become decent. JJJ is obviously a stud.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter at this point....they said they all signed off on the decision, including JJ, at the time, so ultimately I don't think there was a strong voice objecting or wanting someone else. From reputable sources, the expectation based on sources was the front office would take Ayton, but I had heard from a reputable source that Sarver was enamored with Luka. But I can see the argument "we have Book, we need the big, blah blah".

[Frank Lee]

Blows my mind that Book gets the blow back for a monumental front office F up

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

That explains why Luka likes to get in his face and f__k with him.


Pretty sure Luka was expecting Suns to take him at #1.

Thats such a classic shot.. we were only down what, 32 at the time??? Luka is such a FurdTucker.

[bwgood77]

He shouldn't, but as McD said, Booker wanted Ayton. I do remember in an interview he said we should take Ayton.

That explains why Luka likes to get in his face and f__k with him.


Pretty sure Luka was expecting Suns to take him at #1.

Thats such a classic shot.. we were only down what, 32 at the time??? Luka is such a FurdTucker.

Booker never EVER should have mocked him with the "Luka special" after we were up in game 5 en route to victory. That picture is karma.

[lilfishi22]

I don't know that he was expecting it. Our GM never even went to see him or anything. Our owner and GM did, and it was reported Sarver was enamored with Luka (I think he reminded him in ways of Nash, who he loved)...but McD said from day 1 he was drafting a big and only brought in 4 bigs. Pretty sure he would have taken Bagley if he had the #2 pick and Ayton went 1st. There was a quote from an anonymous GM..some national guy said it...that Luka reminded him of more of a Turkoglu type of player)...for some reason I always thought that was McD. The fanbase for the most part really wanted Ayton too, not that it should matter. I do think we were maybe considering Luka if we got the 3rd pick, which is maybe a reason we hired his coach....don't know...that happened before the lottery I believe.

There was also a rumor we were trying to get a second pick later down in the top 10 to take Shai...but we couldn't...we were able to trade for Mikal because Philly called us up when Zhaire Smith was still on the board for our pick...who Hinkie viewed as in a similar tier to Mikal and wanted our unprotected 21 first we had from Miami.

There's so much conjecture and contradictory reporting following that draft, I just don't know what is and isn't real anymore or what to believe. Between hiring Kokoskov, then drafting DA, then all the reporting immediately following and then likely some spin from McD, it's just so confusing, I don't care anymore who wanted who because ultimately, when it comes down to a decision this big, I don't think it could've gotten done without Sarver's buy in. He's the guy at the very top and given how apparently hands on he had been in the front office, I don't really buy that McD could've made the decision of drafting DA or Luka without getting Sarver to buy into that idea.

I do think the Mikal deal was all McD though, so he deserves credit there

Yeah, they said after the draft that all 3 agreed on the decision with Ayton. I do think from all the official reports from national guys, etc, at the time, though, that McD was the driver on the decision. There has been a ton of assumption and just people assuming "Sarver went to UofA, he must want to take a UofA guy". I think that's irrelevant, and if anything, being a UA fan, would have possibly given him hesitation because watching him in college didn't inspire a ton of confidence. But, at the same time, we wanted/needed a C, and McD was pushing it hard, and he was obviously higher thought of by everyone than Bamba, Carter, Bagley and even JJJ at the time. Bagley and Bamba were probably the next ones with hype, and they ended up being worse. Carter has become decent. JJJ is obviously a stud.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter at this point....they said they all signed off on the decision, including JJ, at the time, so ultimately I don't think there was a strong voice objecting or wanting someone else. From reputable sources, the expectation based on sources was the front office would take Ayton, but I had heard from a reputable source that Sarver was enamored with Luka. But I can see the argument "we have Book, we need the big, blah blah".

I don't think the UofA thing was because Sarver went to UofA, I thought of it more as being that it just looked logical. UofA guy, Hillcrest prep guy, Phoenix had the #1 pick, I think that narrative was right there ripe for the picking. I also think Luka was still seen as the riskier, more unknown choice. As you mentioned that anonymous scout(if I'm thinking of the same one) that Gambo had tweeted about which was very very critical of Luka. The media was very very much divided on him at the time. Basketball twitter loved him, the more mainstream media were more wary of him and I think there were real bias from American commentators for an ultra athletic, big dude who looked like the second coming of David Robinson, played college hoops and etc etc. Luka was more of an unknown for the general public whereas DA went through the more tried and true (and more publicised) college route.

The only reason I don't quite buy that Sarver was "enamoured" with Luka (for one, I haven't seen that reported) is because if he did feel that strongly, he could've easily put his foot down and made the call (or veto DA). They went as far as to hire Kokoskov so the ground works were being laid for a Luka pick.

This week, ESPN NBA insider Tim MacMahon sat down with Brian Windhorst on the Hoops Collective podcast. During the pair’s conversation, they revealed what really led to Phoenix passing on Doncic.

“I’ve been told by multiple people who were with the Phoenix organization that [picking Ayton] was a total Robert Sarver move,” MacMahon said. “It sure wasn’t [then-Suns coach] Igor [Kokoskov]. He wanted them obviously to get Luka, and to put a big offer on the table for Clint Capela.”

[sunskerr]

Well whatever the case if we get the first pick again in a decade or whenever it is we own our picks, just make sure the dude can at least dribble a basketball first

[sunsbg]

Well whatever the case if we get the first pick again in a decade or whenever it is we own our picks, just make sure the dude can at least dribble a basketball first

So we miss on freshman versions of Shaq, TD, Embiid for Rubio. It's a bit more complicated than that. My conclusion is scouts should put more value in character evaluation. Switch Luka and DA's drive and we get completely different results from both.

[Djedefre]

Absolutely. Character assessment is vital in making the decision on draft night. You simply can't pick guys based on future promises if you don't even know their mental traits (or even worse, you know but choose to ignore them) - do they have the drive, hunger, motivation to improve, to be the best of the best, compete and win, or they just view basketball as a way to get paid. Or they have brain damage. We all know Josh Jackson was anything but talentless hack, but yet he turned out to be like one of the fastest ever top5 picks to exit the league. What a pack of elite tools Wiggins had (generational talent headlines all over the place), only to become a serviceable wing player and nothing more. It is very important what's between the ears. And it should be a factor, at least as significant as physical and basketball abilities.

[BurningHeart]

As others have clarified on my behalf, "heart and soul" does not necessarily mean the yelling, being brash, outspoken, etc.

That's not what I'm talking about.

Whats funny is that mention of Kobe above. Kobe quit on his team I'd say a few times, very most notably especially INCLUDING against us in 2006 Game 7, asked for trades and caused various other FA/roster drama many times and he still had more heart than Kevin Durant.

Doncic may have that Euro flopper bitchmade complainer ginobili spurs **** in him, but he's got the heart and the soul. Boy is a stone cold **** killer. People go to war for dudes like that. Ain't nobody going to war for Durant or Booker, even.

We need a team of ravenous ****. I don't mean thugs or bitchmades or complainers. I mean those dudes who are absolutely undeniable in their hunger, their basketball IQ, their work ethic. Those dudes that will not **** stop. The dudes who are focused on what's happening on the court rather than what's happening on the side, with their contract, with their fame, with their Twitter account, with their fashion, with their whatever else. Cuz those other fools always have problems getting along with anyone, always have their way or pout like a bitch and force their way out, are never happy where they are, always planning their next stop, hiding under the guise of their "chill," etc.

To steal a line from Apollo Creed, Durant plays ball great but Luka is a great baller.

[ChuckS]

I tried to stay out of this because I am hopelessly biased regarding KD, and my first psych prof said: "If someone tells you that wall is black and you know it is white -- do not argue". I think he would forgive it on a discussion board, though, which sadly would not exist if everyone felt that way. This discussion of IT has been really interesting. It made me nostalgic for those better days when a president explained what sexual relations really were. I think I understand every meaning of IT, and thought the most important point was the mention of subjectivity. I personally believe that no one most frequently considered a top ten to fifteen best ever, with the eighth most points scored, and 4th best playoff scoring average, among his other achievements already mentioned, who came back from ACL surgery after the age of 30 even better, could not have IT or particularly heart. I was especially convinced after he sustained that severe injury trying to save his team from losing in the finals when he was already seriously hurt. I could not understand the criticism of an all time great even more when I knew that even just some average fans were full of IT.

I don't know why you're hung up on this being a Durant bash because it's not. I think Kobe is a very overrated player. KD is 100% the better player imo. But come playoff time I'm taking Kobe 10 out of 10 times. Game 7 of the finals on the line, who's your pick? I think we have enough evidence that KD is not the guy despite being the better player.

To steal a line from Apollo Creed, Durant plays ball great but Luka is a great baller.

I read these as what is known as "damning with faint praise". I knew that Kevin and Kobe were great friends with mutual respect for their abilities. I remembered that LeBron picked KD first when he was an All Star team captain. But I knew I would not change some minds because I already posted quotes from Kerr, Popovich, Draymond, and Klay. I won't bore you with them again, but they are on page 26 of the off season thread. Instead, for those still undecided or open minded, following are thoughts of Luka, Kobe, Michael, and others most believe to have IT:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/michael_jordan_on_young_kevin_durant_he_is_coming_you_talk_about_kobe_or_lebron_and_who_is_the_best_kevin_durant_is_gonna_sneak_in_the_back_door/s1_16751_37525266

[ChuckS]

I apologize for the initial post and some senior moments with the you tube and Yardbarker additions. I hope not too many read them looking for what I left out, but now think fixed.

[garrick]

I tried to stay out of this because I am hopelessly biased regarding KD, and my first psych prof said: "If someone tells you that wall is black and you know it is white -- do not argue". I think he would forgive it on a discussion board, though, which sadly would not exist if everyone felt that way. This discussion of IT has been really interesting. It made me nostalgic for those better days when a president explained what sexual relations really were. I think I understand every meaning of IT, and thought the most important point was the mention of subjectivity. I personally believe that no one most frequently considered a top ten to fifteen best ever, with the eighth most points scored, and 4th best playoff scoring average, among his other achievements already mentioned, who came back from ACL surgery after the age of 30 even better, could not have IT or particularly heart. I was especially convinced after he sustained that severe injury trying to save his team from losing in the finals when he was already seriously hurt. I could not understand the criticism of an all time great even more when I knew that even just some average fans were full of IT.

I don't know why you're hung up on this being a Durant bash because it's not. I think Kobe is a very overrated player. KD is 100% the better player imo. But come playoff time I'm taking Kobe 10 out of 10 times. Game 7 of the finals on the line, who's your pick? I think we have enough evidence that KD is not the guy despite being the better player.

To steal a line from Apollo Creed, Durant plays ball great but Luka is a great baller.

I read these as what is known as "damning with faint praise". I knew that Kevin and Kobe were great friends with mutual respect for their abilities. I remembered that LeBron picked KD first when he was an All Star team captain. But I knew I would not change some minds because I already posted quotes from Kerr, Popovich, Draymond, and Klay. I won't bore you with them again, but they are on page 27 of the off season thread. Instead, for those still undecided or open minded, following are thoughts of Luka, Kobe, Michael, and others most consider have IT:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/michael_jordan_on_young_kevin_durant_he_is_coming_you_talk_about_kobe_or_lebron_and_who_is_the_best_kevin_durant_is_gonna_sneak_in_the_back_door/s1_16751_37525266

I'll say it again KD just had the misfortune to be playing through the Kobe, Steph & Klay and LBJ prime years which stopped him from winning in OKC.

Today there is more parity in the league and with no dynasty team dominating the league it really gives a lot of teams a good chance of making the finals, unfortunately for KD the window for him is closing due to age but it shouldn't detract from the HOF career that he's had.

[handsome salary]

If Trae gets traded every team that passed on Luka will have given up on the players they chose ahead of him. And none of these organizations have ever won a championship.