Post Mortem 2023-24

[toooskies]

Are you positive about this? He's not a pending free agent, so there is some ambiguity there.

If you have a link to Windy saying/writing he can begin discussing his extension like he is a pending FA, please link it.

Yeah, there shouldn't be any limitations on our ability to talk to our own player. It's the pen to paper part that we'll all be waiting for, and then there will be a moratorium before he can ask for a trade if he doesn't like how things are going.

Well of course their *shouldn't* be but the NBA is stupid lol i mean they do their draft before free agency which doesn't make a lick of sense. They allow UFA to start talking to other teams a full 6 hours before RFA can.

The 1 day after the Finals specifically states for pending FA. Koby obviously said he can't talk to Mitchell about the extension yet (but when?)

I read Windy said in 3 weeks they can talk to Mitchell. If he is lumped into that same category, I will feel better because the Cavs will have a good idea of if Mitchell will extend in advance of the draft, FA opening, and most likely hiring their new head coach. However, if they can't even begin discussions until the 6th or heck even the 1st, different ball game.

Did some reading up of the CBA (https://imgix.cosmicjs.com/25da5eb0-15eb-11ee-b5b3-fbd321202bdf-Final-2023-NBA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-6-28-23.pdf). It looks like the language to extend a free agent begins the day after the Finals (see page 310), but the language to extend a player under contract needs to wait to negotiate until July 1 (see page 250). Get your legalese reading glasses out.

My previous reference to Windhorst I believe was on the Five Good Minutes show on ESPN Cleveland, but it also may have been the Hoop Collective podcast after the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs. Not sure when I heard it but those are when I listened to him, and I remember him saying it.

[jbk1234]

Yeah, there shouldn't be any limitations on our ability to talk to our own player. It's the pen to paper part that we'll all be waiting for, and then there will be a moratorium before he can ask for a trade if he doesn't like how things are going.

Well of course their *shouldn't* be but the NBA is stupid lol i mean they do their draft before free agency which doesn't make a lick of sense. They allow UFA to start talking to other teams a full 6 hours before RFA can.

The 1 day after the Finals specifically states for pending FA. Koby obviously said he can't talk to Mitchell about the extension yet (but when?)

I read Windy said in 3 weeks they can talk to Mitchell. If he is lumped into that same category, I will feel better because the Cavs will have a good idea of if Mitchell will extend in advance of the draft, FA opening, and most likely hiring their new head coach. However, if they can't even begin discussions until the 6th or heck even the 1st, different ball game.

Collusion is a slippery slope in the NBA, the Cavs wouldn't want to instill thoughts that they colluded with Mitchell and came to an agreement on an extension before they are legally allowed to negotiate an extension.

Mitchell is not a free agent. That's the part everyone is missing.

[JujitsuFlip]

Yeah, there shouldn't be any limitations on our ability to talk to our own player. It's the pen to paper part that we'll all be waiting for, and then there will be a moratorium before he can ask for a trade if he doesn't like how things are going.

Well of course their *shouldn't* be but the NBA is stupid lol i mean they do their draft before free agency which doesn't make a lick of sense. They allow UFA to start talking to other teams a full 6 hours before RFA can.

The 1 day after the Finals specifically states for pending FA. Koby obviously said he can't talk to Mitchell about the extension yet (but when?)

I read Windy said in 3 weeks they can talk to Mitchell. If he is lumped into that same category, I will feel better because the Cavs will have a good idea of if Mitchell will extend in advance of the draft, FA opening, and most likely hiring their new head coach. However, if they can't even begin discussions until the 6th or heck even the 1st, different ball game.

Did some reading up of the CBA (https://imgix.cosmicjs.com/25da5eb0-15eb-11ee-b5b3-fbd321202bdf-Final-2023-NBA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-6-28-23.pdf). It looks like the language to extend a free agent begins the day after the Finals (see page 310), but the language to extend a player under contract needs to wait to negotiate until July 1 (see page 250). Get your legalese reading glasses out.

My previous reference to Windhorst I believe was on the Five Good Minutes show on ESPN Cleveland, but it also may have been the Hoop Collective podcast after the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs. Not sure when I heard it but those are when I listened to him, and I remember him saying it.

I don't have time to read it but will at some point. The 1st is still better than the 6th but yeah not sure any time in June will apply to Mitchell since he has a 1+1 left.

[jbk1234]

Because $14m is pretty affordable for a guy you can have in your playoff rotation and spot start, even if you see no development moving forward. (A new coach might unlock him better on the offensive end, though.)

But if you won't match $14m, do you even offer the $12.7m QO for the rights to match an offer?

Because it costs you nothing but the Q.O. to retain the option and that's only for one year. I happen to think $14M per is a lot for a guy who can get played off the floor in the playoffs because the other team doesn't even bother guarding him.

It's not just the playoffs either. He was brutal in March and teams barely bothered to guard him. He's not even effective as regular season injury insurance against good teams. You can't have your starting 2 guard averaging 8 points over the course of a month.

He's still afraid to shoot after 4 seasons and we don't get a better shot when he pulls the ball down and drives. He can't buy a call at the rim and he can't finish through contact. He's ineffective as a secondary creator because teams just protect the rim as he has no floater nor midrange game.

Despite all of that, how many times did he step on sidelines because he was looking to manufacture a first step rather than shoot in the playoffs? It gets to the point where Mitchell and Garland don't even pass him the ball in the 4th quarter when he's unguarded at the three point line. You're playing 4 on 5 on offense with him in the game.

The L.A. Times has him as a potential target for the Lakers on the TMLE.

If Isaac accepts the TMLE from another team, we'll say thank you.

It's funny given how awful Isaac was offensively in the playoffs that he finished with the Cavs 3rd best playoff on-court and 4th best playoff on-off.

It seems there are worse things than playing hard on defense and not taking too many shots away from Mitchell (see Niang, Georges).

Yeah, the TMLE thing is just Lakers cope. Okoro should play on the Q.O. before he agrees to that.

That said, we really, really needed Okoro to contribute 10-12 ppg on offense when Mitchell and Strus went down, or Mitchell and LeVert went down, and he just couldn't. What's not showing up in those +/- numbers is the strain that puts Garland (or even LeVert when he was healthy). They had to work twice as hard to generate decent looks with him out there and it's demoralizing when he passes on those looks. It's hard enough to score against good teams without handicapping yourself like that.

Finally, he's still prone to getting into early foul trouble against good competition, and while that's less of an issue when he's a rotation player, it absolutely kills us when he's starting due to injury and is forced to the bench early (tbc he's definitely the victim of some bad beat officitiating). Okoro is the very definition of a role player and he might be a more limited one here with JB gone.

[toooskies]

I feel like the pick at 20 really shouldn't change. If there's a decent big or SF with size, take him. Okoro should get the Q.O. If he gets an offer sheet, the clock starts the same day Mitchell can sign, but really, if it's more than the MLE, it shouldn't matter. He's just so limited offensively, I don't know how you match it.

Because $14m is pretty affordable for a guy you can have in your playoff rotation and spot start, even if you see no development moving forward. (A new coach might unlock him better on the offensive end, though.)

But if you won't match $14m, do you even offer the $12.7m QO for the rights to match an offer?

Because it costs you nothing but the Q.O. to retain the option and that's only for one year. I happen to think $14M per is a lot for a guy who can get played off the floor in the playoffs because the other team doesn't even bother guarding him.

It's not just the playoffs either. He was brutal in March and teams barely bothered to guard him. He's not even effective as regular season injury insurance against good teams. You can't have your starting 2 guard averaging 8 points over the course of a month.

He's still afraid to shoot after 4 seasons and we don't get a better shot when he pulls the ball down and drives. He can't buy a call at the rim and he can't finish through contact. He's ineffective as a secondary creator because teams just protect the rim as he has no floater nor midrange game.

Despite all of that, how many times did he step on sidelines because he was looking to manufacture a first step rather than shoot in the playoffs? It gets to the point where Mitchell and Garland don't even pass him the ball in the 4th quarter when he's unguarded at the three point line. You're playing 4 on 5 on offense with him in the game.

The L.A. Times has him as a potential target for the Lakers on the TMLE.

Well, the LA Times is speculating stupidly. Okoro won't be an RFA considering a TMLE. He's going to take the QO before signing a TMLE. The only way he'd make less money taking the QO is if he's entirely out of the league. The QO of $12.8m plus two veteran minimum years of $~3m will be more than the NTMLE which will start at $5.2m and go for three years-- $17m total maybe?

And that's before you get to the buzz from at least some Cleveland reporters that $15m+ is his expected market.

Derrick Jones Jr. has been less than what Isaac Okoro is on both ends of the floor this year. He is currently 27 years old. In the regular season, this year he hit a career high of 34.3% three point shooting. He's low-volume. Starter on a Finals team. Gonna get paid the NTMLE at least this offseason. Why? He got hot shooting 3s in the playoffs. 21/53.

Okoro seemed to be the player hardest hit on the roster by the referee whistle change, as what used to be called a foul on his drives from the corner were no longer called after the all-star break or in the playoffs. One of the things he'll have to work on in the offseason is finishing through contact with the new rules. (Or, maybe, the new interpretation of the rules goes away with the TV deals signed.)

Despite his poor offensive performance this year, Okoro's a career +6.3 on/off in the playoffs. Obsessing over his offensive deficiencies neglects his defensive value.

[JonFromVA]

Because it costs you nothing but the Q.O. to retain the option and that's only for one year. I happen to think $14M per is a lot for a guy who can get played off the floor in the playoffs because the other team doesn't even bother guarding him.

It's not just the playoffs either. He was brutal in March and teams barely bothered to guard him. He's not even effective as regular season injury insurance against good teams. You can't have your starting 2 guard averaging 8 points over the course of a month.

He's still afraid to shoot after 4 seasons and we don't get a better shot when he pulls the ball down and drives. He can't buy a call at the rim and he can't finish through contact. He's ineffective as a secondary creator because teams just protect the rim as he has no floater nor midrange game.

Despite all of that, how many times did he step on sidelines because he was looking to manufacture a first step rather than shoot in the playoffs? It gets to the point where Mitchell and Garland don't even pass him the ball in the 4th quarter when he's unguarded at the three point line. You're playing 4 on 5 on offense with him in the game.

The L.A. Times has him as a potential target for the Lakers on the TMLE.

If Isaac accepts the TMLE from another team, we'll say thank you.

It's funny given how awful Isaac was offensively in the playoffs that he finished with the Cavs 3rd best playoff on-court and 4th best playoff on-off.

It seems there are worse things than playing hard on defense and not taking too many shots away from Mitchell (see Niang, Georges).

Yeah, the TMLE thing is just Lakers cope. Okoro should play on the Q.O. before he agrees to that.

That said, we really, really needed Okoro to contribute 10-12 ppg on offense when Mitchell and Strus went down, or Mitchell and LeVert went down, and he just couldn't. What's not showing up in those +/- numbers is the strain that puts Garland (or even LeVert when he was healthy). They had to work twice as hard to generate decent looks with him out there and it's demoralizing when he passes on those looks. It's hard enough to score against good teams without handicapping yourself like that.

Finally, he's still prone to getting into early foul trouble against good competition, and while that's less of an issue when he's a rotation player, it absolutely kills us when he's starting due to injury and is forced to the bench early (tbc he's definitely the victim of some bad beat officitiating). Okoro is the very definition of a role player and he might be a more limited one here with JB gone.

Presuming you're right, what you should be asking yourself is why isn't there a bigger swing in improvement when we put a better shooter on the floor in place of Isaac?

You might also ask why an undrafted player like Dean Wade looks so vital on the team.

Decent length, solid man defense, solid help defense, ability to knock down an occasional 3pter ... find an improved version of that and maybe we can ditch either of those players; but easier said than done apparently.

[jbk1234]

Because $14m is pretty affordable for a guy you can have in your playoff rotation and spot start, even if you see no development moving forward. (A new coach might unlock him better on the offensive end, though.)

But if you won't match $14m, do you even offer the $12.7m QO for the rights to match an offer?

Because it costs you nothing but the Q.O. to retain the option and that's only for one year. I happen to think $14M per is a lot for a guy who can get played off the floor in the playoffs because the other team doesn't even bother guarding him.

It's not just the playoffs either. He was brutal in March and teams barely bothered to guard him. He's not even effective as regular season injury insurance against good teams. You can't have your starting 2 guard averaging 8 points over the course of a month.

He's still afraid to shoot after 4 seasons and we don't get a better shot when he pulls the ball down and drives. He can't buy a call at the rim and he can't finish through contact. He's ineffective as a secondary creator because teams just protect the rim as he has no floater nor midrange game.

Despite all of that, how many times did he step on sidelines because he was looking to manufacture a first step rather than shoot in the playoffs? It gets to the point where Mitchell and Garland don't even pass him the ball in the 4th quarter when he's unguarded at the three point line. You're playing 4 on 5 on offense with him in the game.

The L.A. Times has him as a potential target for the Lakers on the TMLE.

Well, the LA Times is speculating stupidly. Okoro won't be an RFA considering a TMLE. He's going to take the QO before signing a TMLE. The only way he'd make less money taking the QO is if he's entirely out of the league. The QO of $12.8m plus two veteran minimum years of $~3m will be more than the NTMLE which will start at $5.2m and go for three years-- $17m total maybe?

And that's before you get to the buzz from at least some Cleveland reporters that $15m+ is his expected market.

Derrick Jones Jr. has been less than what Isaac Okoro is on both ends of the floor this year. He is currently 27 years old. In the regular season, this year he hit a career high of 34.3% three point shooting. He's low-volume. Starter on a Finals team. Gonna get paid the NTMLE at least this offseason. Why? He got hot shooting 3s in the playoffs. 21/53.

Okoro seemed to be the player hardest hit on the roster by the referee whistle change, as what used to be called a foul on his drives from the corner were no longer called after the all-star break or in the playoffs. One of the things he'll have to work on in the offseason is finishing through contact with the new rules. (Or, maybe, the new interpretation of the rules goes away with the TV deals signed.)

Despite his poor offensive performance this year, Okoro's a career +6.3 on/off in the playoffs. Obsessing over his offensive deficiencies neglects his defensive value.

I have no idea where Jon and you are getting your playoff +/- numbers from, but every source I checked had him at net -31 for the playoffs this year. Here's the breakdown by game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okorois01/gamelog-playoffs/

[toooskies]

Because it costs you nothing but the Q.O. to retain the option and that's only for one year. I happen to think $14M per is a lot for a guy who can get played off the floor in the playoffs because the other team doesn't even bother guarding him.

It's not just the playoffs either. He was brutal in March and teams barely bothered to guard him. He's not even effective as regular season injury insurance against good teams. You can't have your starting 2 guard averaging 8 points over the course of a month.

He's still afraid to shoot after 4 seasons and we don't get a better shot when he pulls the ball down and drives. He can't buy a call at the rim and he can't finish through contact. He's ineffective as a secondary creator because teams just protect the rim as he has no floater nor midrange game.

Despite all of that, how many times did he step on sidelines because he was looking to manufacture a first step rather than shoot in the playoffs? It gets to the point where Mitchell and Garland don't even pass him the ball in the 4th quarter when he's unguarded at the three point line. You're playing 4 on 5 on offense with him in the game.

The L.A. Times has him as a potential target for the Lakers on the TMLE.

Well, the LA Times is speculating stupidly. Okoro won't be an RFA considering a TMLE. He's going to take the QO before signing a TMLE. The only way he'd make less money taking the QO is if he's entirely out of the league. The QO of $12.8m plus two veteran minimum years of $~3m will be more than the NTMLE which will start at $5.2m and go for three years-- $17m total maybe?

And that's before you get to the buzz from at least some Cleveland reporters that $15m+ is his expected market.

Derrick Jones Jr. has been less than what Isaac Okoro is on both ends of the floor this year. He is currently 27 years old. In the regular season, this year he hit a career high of 34.3% three point shooting. He's low-volume. Starter on a Finals team. Gonna get paid the NTMLE at least this offseason. Why? He got hot shooting 3s in the playoffs. 21/53.

Okoro seemed to be the player hardest hit on the roster by the referee whistle change, as what used to be called a foul on his drives from the corner were no longer called after the all-star break or in the playoffs. One of the things he'll have to work on in the offseason is finishing through contact with the new rules. (Or, maybe, the new interpretation of the rules goes away with the TV deals signed.)

Despite his poor offensive performance this year, Okoro's a career +6.3 on/off in the playoffs. Obsessing over his offensive deficiencies neglects his defensive value.

I have no idea where Jon and you are getting your playoff +/- numbers from, but every source I checked had him at net -31 for the playoffs this year. Here's the breakdown by game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okorois01/gamelog-playoffs/

I specifically referenced on/off and not +/-. It's on his player page, under play-by-play, on the playoff tab.

[JonFromVA]

Well, the LA Times is speculating stupidly. Okoro won't be an RFA considering a TMLE. He's going to take the QO before signing a TMLE. The only way he'd make less money taking the QO is if he's entirely out of the league. The QO of $12.8m plus two veteran minimum years of $~3m will be more than the NTMLE which will start at $5.2m and go for three years-- $17m total maybe?

And that's before you get to the buzz from at least some Cleveland reporters that $15m+ is his expected market.

Derrick Jones Jr. has been less than what Isaac Okoro is on both ends of the floor this year. He is currently 27 years old. In the regular season, this year he hit a career high of 34.3% three point shooting. He's low-volume. Starter on a Finals team. Gonna get paid the NTMLE at least this offseason. Why? He got hot shooting 3s in the playoffs. 21/53.

Okoro seemed to be the player hardest hit on the roster by the referee whistle change, as what used to be called a foul on his drives from the corner were no longer called after the all-star break or in the playoffs. One of the things he'll have to work on in the offseason is finishing through contact with the new rules. (Or, maybe, the new interpretation of the rules goes away with the TV deals signed.)

Despite his poor offensive performance this year, Okoro's a career +6.3 on/off in the playoffs. Obsessing over his offensive deficiencies neglects his defensive value.

I have no idea where Jon and you are getting your playoff +/- numbers from, but every source I checked had him at net -31 for the playoffs this year. Here's the breakdown by game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okorois01/gamelog-playoffs/

I specifically referenced on/off and not +/-. It's on his player page, under play-by-play, on the playoff tab.

I mentioned his playoff team ranking.... just scroll down to Play-by-Play, click playoffs, and sort the OnCourt and On-Off columns:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024.html

Even Don had a -2.1 pp100 OnCourt and he led the team, so, nobody had a positive +/- over all their playoff games. We're talking relative levels of suckitude.

[jbk1234]

I have no idea where Jon and you are getting your playoff +/- numbers from, but every source I checked had him at net -31 for the playoffs this year. Here's the breakdown by game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okorois01/gamelog-playoffs/

I specifically referenced on/off and not +/-. It's on his player page, under play-by-play, on the playoff tab.

I mentioned his playoff team ranking.... just scroll down to Play-by-Play, click playoffs, and sort the OnCourt and On-Off columns:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024.html

Even Don had a -2.1 pp100 OnCourt and he led the team, so, nobody had a positive +/- over all their playoff games. We're talking relative levels of suckitude.

I mean if his negative *on* numbers are transformed into a positive *on/off* numbers by virtue of our other bench players and JB's rotations, the answer is not to heavily invest in the guy who was still negative.

[JonFromVA]

I specifically referenced on/off and not +/-. It's on his player page, under play-by-play, on the playoff tab.

I mentioned his playoff team ranking.... just scroll down to Play-by-Play, click playoffs, and sort the OnCourt and On-Off columns:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024.html

Even Don had a -2.1 pp100 OnCourt and he led the team, so, nobody had a positive +/- over all their playoff games. We're talking relative levels of suckitude.

I mean if his negative *on* numbers are transformed into a positive *on/off* numbers by virtue of our other bench players and JB's rotations, the answer is not to heavily invest in the guy who was still negative.

League average salary is not heavily investing per se, but given how top heavy our team is becoming we may have to cut some corners regardless of how much we think he does or does not contribute.

[jbk1234]

I mentioned his playoff team ranking.... just scroll down to Play-by-Play, click playoffs, and sort the OnCourt and On-Off columns:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2024.html

Even Don had a -2.1 pp100 OnCourt and he led the team, so, nobody had a positive +/- over all their playoff games. We're talking relative levels of suckitude.

I mean if his negative *on* numbers are transformed into a positive *on/off* numbers by virtue of our other bench players and JB's rotations, the answer is not to heavily invest in the guy who was still negative.

League average salary is not heavily investing per se, but given how top heavy our team is becoming we may have to cut some corners regardless of how much we think he does or does not contribute.

League average salary is a lot for a bench player.

[JujitsuFlip]

Yeah, there shouldn't be any limitations on our ability to talk to our own player. It's the pen to paper part that we'll all be waiting for, and then there will be a moratorium before he can ask for a trade if he doesn't like how things are going.

Well of course their *shouldn't* be but the NBA is stupid lol i mean they do their draft before free agency which doesn't make a lick of sense. They allow UFA to start talking to other teams a full 6 hours before RFA can.

The 1 day after the Finals specifically states for pending FA. Koby obviously said he can't talk to Mitchell about the extension yet (but when?)

I read Windy said in 3 weeks they can talk to Mitchell. If he is lumped into that same category, I will feel better because the Cavs will have a good idea of if Mitchell will extend in advance of the draft, FA opening, and most likely hiring their new head coach. However, if they can't even begin discussions until the 6th or heck even the 1st, different ball game.

Did some reading up of the CBA (https://imgix.cosmicjs.com/25da5eb0-15eb-11ee-b5b3-fbd321202bdf-Final-2023-NBA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-6-28-23.pdf). It looks like the language to extend a free agent begins the day after the Finals (see page 310), but the language to extend a player under contract needs to wait to negotiate until July 1 (see page 250). Get your legalese reading glasses out.

My previous reference to Windhorst I believe was on the Five Good Minutes show on ESPN Cleveland, but it also may have been the Hoop Collective podcast after the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs. Not sure when I heard it but those are when I listened to him, and I remember him saying it.

I finally read it, I would agree that July 1st is when the Cavs can contact Mitchell and his reps about the extension.

That is better than the 6th but still sucks because the draft will be over and the first 6 hours of free agency will be done.

Oh well, kind of the situation we're in. Go BPA at #20 and if there is someone we really like with the full MLE hopefully they fit with or without Mitchell (or Garland if he asks out if Mitchell extends).

I doubt Mitchell is gonna give a quick answer so we may not know until closer until the 6th anyways.

[JonFromVA]

Well of course their *shouldn't* be but the NBA is stupid lol i mean they do their draft before free agency which doesn't make a lick of sense. They allow UFA to start talking to other teams a full 6 hours before RFA can.

The 1 day after the Finals specifically states for pending FA. Koby obviously said he can't talk to Mitchell about the extension yet (but when?)

I read Windy said in 3 weeks they can talk to Mitchell. If he is lumped into that same category, I will feel better because the Cavs will have a good idea of if Mitchell will extend in advance of the draft, FA opening, and most likely hiring their new head coach. However, if they can't even begin discussions until the 6th or heck even the 1st, different ball game.

Did some reading up of the CBA (https://imgix.cosmicjs.com/25da5eb0-15eb-11ee-b5b3-fbd321202bdf-Final-2023-NBA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-6-28-23.pdf). It looks like the language to extend a free agent begins the day after the Finals (see page 310), but the language to extend a player under contract needs to wait to negotiate until July 1 (see page 250). Get your legalese reading glasses out.

My previous reference to Windhorst I believe was on the Five Good Minutes show on ESPN Cleveland, but it also may have been the Hoop Collective podcast after the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs. Not sure when I heard it but those are when I listened to him, and I remember him saying it.

I finally read it, I would agree that July 1st is when the Cavs can contact Mitchell and his reps about the extension.

That is better than the 6th but still sucks because the draft will be over and the first 6 hours of free agency will be done.

Oh well, kind of the situation we're in. Go BPA at #20 and if there is someone we really like with the full MLE hopefully they fit with or without Mitchell (or Garland if he asks out if Mitchell extends).

I doubt Mitchell is gonna give a quick answer so we may not know until closer until the 6th anyways.

I think we already know and should plan accordingly.

[JujitsuFlip]

Did some reading up of the CBA (https://imgix.cosmicjs.com/25da5eb0-15eb-11ee-b5b3-fbd321202bdf-Final-2023-NBA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement-6-28-23.pdf). It looks like the language to extend a free agent begins the day after the Finals (see page 310), but the language to extend a player under contract needs to wait to negotiate until July 1 (see page 250). Get your legalese reading glasses out.

My previous reference to Windhorst I believe was on the Five Good Minutes show on ESPN Cleveland, but it also may have been the Hoop Collective podcast after the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs. Not sure when I heard it but those are when I listened to him, and I remember him saying it.

I finally read it, I would agree that July 1st is when the Cavs can contact Mitchell and his reps about the extension.

That is better than the 6th but still sucks because the draft will be over and the first 6 hours of free agency will be done.

Oh well, kind of the situation we're in. Go BPA at #20 and if there is someone we really like with the full MLE hopefully they fit with or without Mitchell (or Garland if he asks out if Mitchell extends).

I doubt Mitchell is gonna give a quick answer so we may not know until closer until the 6th anyways.

I think we already know and should plan accordingly.

I mean, in theory they probably know but things can change between now and the 1st and better yet the 6th (ink to paper).

Guess we'll see if Rich Paul lets Garland play with Mitchell and i guess we'll see if Allen is over the ridicule.

[JonFromVA]

I finally read it, I would agree that July 1st is when the Cavs can contact Mitchell and his reps about the extension.

That is better than the 6th but still sucks because the draft will be over and the first 6 hours of free agency will be done.

Oh well, kind of the situation we're in. Go BPA at #20 and if there is someone we really like with the full MLE hopefully they fit with or without Mitchell (or Garland if he asks out if Mitchell extends).

I doubt Mitchell is gonna give a quick answer so we may not know until closer until the 6th anyways.

I think we already know and should plan accordingly.

I mean, in theory they probably know but things can change between now and the 1st and better yet the 6th (ink to paper).

Guess we'll see if Rich Paul lets Garland play with Mitchell and i guess we'll see if Allen is over the ridicule.

Unfortunately all outcomes cannot be controlled even with careful collusion, but if we don't plan for the best outcome we will definitely get a lesser one.

[jbk1234]

If Isaac accepts the TMLE from another team, we'll say thank you.

It's funny given how awful Isaac was offensively in the playoffs that he finished with the Cavs 3rd best playoff on-court and 4th best playoff on-off.

It seems there are worse things than playing hard on defense and not taking too many shots away from Mitchell (see Niang, Georges).

Yeah, the TMLE thing is just Lakers cope. Okoro should play on the Q.O. before he agrees to that.

That said, we really, really needed Okoro to contribute 10-12 ppg on offense when Mitchell and Strus went down, or Mitchell and LeVert went down, and he just couldn't. What's not showing up in those +/- numbers is the strain that puts Garland (or even LeVert when he was healthy). They had to work twice as hard to generate decent looks with him out there and it's demoralizing when he passes on those looks. It's hard enough to score against good teams without handicapping yourself like that.

Finally, he's still prone to getting into early foul trouble against good competition, and while that's less of an issue when he's a rotation player, it absolutely kills us when he's starting due to injury and is forced to the bench early (tbc he's definitely the victim of some bad beat officitiating). Okoro is the very definition of a role player and he might be a more limited one here with JB gone.

Presuming you're right, what you should be asking yourself is why isn't there a bigger swing in improvement when we put a better shooter on the floor in place of Isaac?

You might also ask why an undrafted player like Dean Wade looks so vital on the team.

Decent length, solid man defense, solid help defense, ability to knock down an occasional 3pter ... find an improved version of that and maybe we can ditch either of those players; but easier said than done apparently.

The answer is because Merrill struggled to get his shot off, Niang couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, and those two plus Garland created an irreparably bad defensive unit. Being unable to balance offense/defense in his rotations is a big reason JB is gone and I suspect one of the reasons Garland was just over it by the end.

Last year, the answer was because Cedi and a 100-year old, one-legged Danny Green were the alternatives.

Where I really struggle though is that I think Okoro's defense isn't really good enough to justify his offensive limitations. He's a really good POA defender on a guard, but if he's on a SF with size, he's basically passable. Both DJJ and Thybulle play taller than him. Maybe it's wingspan. Maybe they're just better at contesting shots.

The value add with him at SF against mportant matchups just isn't there. You can't really justify starting him in front of Strus, who the other team has to account for on the floor. Assuming one of Allen or Garland go out for a SF with size, I still don't see a path forward for him starting. So why would we pay him like one?

[JujitsuFlip]

I think we already know and should plan accordingly.

I mean, in theory they probably know but things can change between now and the 1st and better yet the 6th (ink to paper).

Guess we'll see if Rich Paul lets Garland play with Mitchell and i guess we'll see if Allen is over the ridicule.

Unfortunately all outcomes cannot be controlled even with careful collusion, but if we don't plan for the best outcome we will definitely get a lesser one.

But what is that best outcome in your opinion?

What are we doing with #20?

What are we doing with the MLE and when?

What are we doing if Mitchell doesn't extend or drags his feet?

What are we doing if Mitchell does extend and Garland asks out?

What are we doing with Allen?

When do we extend Mobley?

What is our match number for Okoro and Bates RFA?

Are we guaranteeing Merrill and CPJ or making them earn their spots in camp/early regular season?

Who are you hiring as the new head coach?

There are a lot of moving parts here...

[JonFromVA]

I mean, in theory they probably know but things can change between now and the 1st and better yet the 6th (ink to paper).

Guess we'll see if Rich Paul lets Garland play with Mitchell and i guess we'll see if Allen is over the ridicule.

Unfortunately all outcomes cannot be controlled even with careful collusion, but if we don't plan for the best outcome we will definitely get a lesser one.

But what is that best outcome in your opinion?

What are we doing with #20?

What are we doing with the MLE and when?

What are we doing if Mitchell doesn't extend or drags his feet?

What are we doing if Mitchell does extend and Garland asks out?

What are we doing with Allen?

When do we extend Mobley?

What is our match number for Okoro and Bates RFA?

Are we guaranteeing Merrill and CPJ or making them earn their spots in camp/early regular season?

Who are you hiring as the new head coach?

There are a lot of moving parts here...

Pay me $10M / year and I'll promise you an answer to all those questions....

Koby is in a much better position to constrain those questions than we are and I expect him to sort them out and decide whatever he thinks is the best path.

I will say as far as our pick goes, we need a player with plus length, that can hold their ground, and can shoot. Position matters less than simply achieving those 3 because a pick is an investment and we will eventually need everything.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah, the TMLE thing is just Lakers cope. Okoro should play on the Q.O. before he agrees to that.

That said, we really, really needed Okoro to contribute 10-12 ppg on offense when Mitchell and Strus went down, or Mitchell and LeVert went down, and he just couldn't. What's not showing up in those +/- numbers is the strain that puts Garland (or even LeVert when he was healthy). They had to work twice as hard to generate decent looks with him out there and it's demoralizing when he passes on those looks. It's hard enough to score against good teams without handicapping yourself like that.

Finally, he's still prone to getting into early foul trouble against good competition, and while that's less of an issue when he's a rotation player, it absolutely kills us when he's starting due to injury and is forced to the bench early (tbc he's definitely the victim of some bad beat officitiating). Okoro is the very definition of a role player and he might be a more limited one here with JB gone.

Presuming you're right, what you should be asking yourself is why isn't there a bigger swing in improvement when we put a better shooter on the floor in place of Isaac?

You might also ask why an undrafted player like Dean Wade looks so vital on the team.

Decent length, solid man defense, solid help defense, ability to knock down an occasional 3pter ... find an improved version of that and maybe we can ditch either of those players; but easier said than done apparently.

The answer is because Merrill struggled to get his shot off, Niang couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, and those two plus Garland created an irreparably bad defensive unit. Being unable to balance offense/defense in his rotations is a big reason JB is gone and I suspect one of the reasons Garland was just over it by the end.

Last year, the answer was because Cedi and a 100-year old, one-legged Danny Green were the alternatives.

Where I really struggle though is that I think Okoro's defense isn't really good enough to justify his offensive limitations. He's a really good POA defender on a guard, but if he's on a SF with size, he's basically passable. Both DJJ and Thybulle play taller than him. Maybe it's wingspan. Maybe they're just better at contesting shots.

The value add with him at SF against mportant matchups just isn't there. You can't really justify starting him in front of Strus, who the other team has to account for on the floor. Assuming one of Allen or Garland go out for a SF with size, I still don't see a path forward for him starting. So why would we pay him like one?

I've said this numerous times, but Isaac is a fundamental defender who will rarely standout but will consistently make things just a little harder on whoever he's asked to defend.

You just won't see this with your eyes, or even game to game. You will just see overtime that the best player on the other team is doing worse on average.

With Max you will see the effort and the hustle as well as everything else he contributes, but it just wasn't transformative for our core-4. Max was at his best with other units.

Maybe with better health and a new coach that will change, but for Bickerstaff? Isaac or Caris did better.