Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[SweaterBae]

What's the statistical argument for Kobe? It's not offensive efficiency, it's not rebound rate or assist rate or blocks or steals or ast/to or fouls. Like there's literally nothing in the box score other than Kobe getting to the line more often.

[CodeBreaker]

What's the statistical argument for Kobe? It's not offensive efficiency, it's not rebound rate or assist rate or blocks or steals or ast/to or fouls. Like there's literally nothing in the box score other than Kobe getting to the line more often.

His aura and mysticism

[SlimShady83]

Good topic, think It's pretty close, I give the edge to Kahwi but only slightly. Vids most likely not their peaks, but thought I'd post any way

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[dhsilv2]

Leonard is/was a more efficient offensive player/shooter (from all over the court) but i dont see how you can say he is/was a considerably better scorer. In what way? More efficien? Yes of course, but that doesnt make him a superior scorer per se.

Given their volumes were comparable and Leonard didn't have the passing to punish doubles...and he could STILL do that? How else is he doing that?

Kobe averaged 20 fga per game for his career and had multiple seasons in which he averaged over 30 points per game for the season. Leonard so far is averaging 15 fga per game and his highest scoring season is 27 points per game for the year. Kobe had higher scoring volume but Leonard is more efficient.

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

[tamaraw08]

Given their volumes were comparable and Leonard didn't have the passing to punish doubles...and he could STILL do that? How else is he doing that?

Kobe averaged 20 fga per game for his career and had multiple seasons in which he averaged over 30 points per game for the season. Leonard so far is averaging 15 fga per game and his highest scoring season is 27 points per game for the year. Kobe had higher scoring volume but Leonard is more efficient.

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

Kawhi might be in the top 8 in terms of peak, Im thinking s guy like Brandon Roy would be top 20 but the question is, how many peak years did Kawhi realistically had?

[dhsilv2]

Kobe averaged 20 fga per game for his career and had multiple seasons in which he averaged over 30 points per game for the season. Leonard so far is averaging 15 fga per game and his highest scoring season is 27 points per game for the year. Kobe had higher scoring volume but Leonard is more efficient.

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

Kawhi might be in the top 8 in terms of peak, Im thinking s guy like Brandon Roy would be top 20 but the question is, how many peak years did Kawhi realistically had?

To be a peak we'd have to only consider one year of each player. Thus peak.

[Narigo]

What's the statistical argument for Kobe? It's not offensive efficiency, it's not rebound rate or assist rate or blocks or steals or ast/to or fouls. Like there's literally nothing in the box score other than Kobe getting to the line more often.

More durable, better passer

[SweaterBae]

What's the statistical argument for Kobe? It's not offensive efficiency, it's not rebound rate or assist rate or blocks or steals or ast/to or fouls. Like there's literally nothing in the box score other than Kobe getting to the line more often.

More durable, better passer

We're talking about "peak". If Kobe is a better passer why is his ast/to ratio so awful?

[Jedi32]

Kobe is the reason I started watching and playing basketball. I was a Stan just like you when I was younger. There is no “mysticism” or any other made up value specific to Kobe. He’s an all time great that’s probably somewhere in the 12-17 range of best NBA players.

That’s an amazing accomplishment and nothing to be ashamed of. We don’t need to prop him up higher than he deserves. A competitor like Kobe would hate that.

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

You have absolutely no way of proving that many other superstars could have duplicated what Kobe did on those teams, especially the second and third rings.

[Maxthirty]

Personally I don't care where people have Kobe as that's not what my comment was about. I'm giving my personal take having watched basketball for the last few decades.

To me the Lakers were basically the Yankee of basketball and I hated Kobe and Shaq with a passion. I became a fan of Kobe because of what he did on the court, not because I picked a name out of a hat and decided to watch him play. We don't need to talk about mysticism though. He won a ring in 25% of the 20 years he played in the NBA and there's a good reason why he won those rings and others haven't been able to do the same.

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

You have absolutely no way of proving that many other superstars could have duplicated what Kobe did on those teams, especially the second and third rings.

That’s true. And you have no way of proving that Doctor J or Klay Thompson wouldn’t have more rings if they replaced Kobe.

[Jedi32]

And 60% of those rings he was second fiddle to prime Shaq. Not taking anything away from Kobe but many other greats are going to get the same results in that situation and possibly another ring against Detroit.

You have absolutely no way of proving that many other superstars could have duplicated what Kobe did on those teams, especially the second and third rings.

That’s true. And you have no way of proving that Doctor J or Klay Thompson wouldn’t have more rings if they replaced Kobe.

The only thing we can go by is what DID happen.

[tamaraw08]

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

Kawhi might be in the top 8 in terms of peak, Im thinking s guy like Brandon Roy would be top 20 but the question is, how many peak years did Kawhi realistically had?

To be a peak we'd have to only consider one year of each player. Thus peak.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, Just One year pick for each player, is that enough sample size for context?
Kevin Love had a peak year of 26 pts and 13 rebs, just averaged above 26pts twice in 15 years.
Gilbert Arenas had one year with 29 pts, 6 assists in his 11 year career.

[dhsilv2]

Kawhi might be in the top 8 in terms of peak, Im thinking s guy like Brandon Roy would be top 20 but the question is, how many peak years did Kawhi realistically had?

To be a peak we'd have to only consider one year of each player. Thus peak.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, Just One year pick for each player, is that enough sample size for context?
Kevin Love had a peak year of 26 pts and 13 rebs, just averaged above 26pts twice in 15 years.
Gilbert Arenas had one year with 29 pts, 6 assists in his 11 year career.

Yeah, that's the whole point of the thought exercise like this. Comparing a guy with an insane peak and one with a really long healthy career.

[tamaraw08]

To be a peak we'd have to only consider one year of each player. Thus peak.

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, Just One year pick for each player, is that enough sample size for context?
Kevin Love had a peak year of 26 pts and 13 rebs, just averaged above 26pts twice in 15 years.
Gilbert Arenas had one year with 29 pts, 6 assists in his 11 year career.

Yeah, that's the whole point of the thought exercise like this. Comparing a guy with an insane peak and one with a really long healthy career.

So a player with a "Fluke year" would appear to be a better player than the guy who consistently put up good/not great numbers for a span of 10 years or so,

[MavsDirk41]

Given their volumes were comparable and Leonard didn't have the passing to punish doubles...and he could STILL do that? How else is he doing that?

Kobe averaged 20 fga per game for his career and had multiple seasons in which he averaged over 30 points per game for the season. Leonard so far is averaging 15 fga per game and his highest scoring season is 27 points per game for the year. Kobe had higher scoring volume but Leonard is more efficient.

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

To me a peak is at least 3 seasons. Lets look at Leonard. He only has 2 seasons in his entire career where he has played 70 plus games:

15/16 and 16/17
During these two years he averaged 23/6/3 on crazy high efficiency. He was top 5 in mvp voting both years and 1st team all defense.

Kobe has a 5 year peak from 05/06 to 09/10 where he was arguably the best player in the league or top 3 at least. He put up 30/6/5 during these 5 seasons while winning an mvp and being top 5 in voting the other 4 years. Kobe was also 1st team all defense these years as well.

The problem with Leonard has always been durability. Dude cant play 60 out of 82 games and we say he had a great season. Kobe all day and i didnt even like the guy.

[dhsilv2]

Pardon me if I am misunderstanding, Just One year pick for each player, is that enough sample size for context?
Kevin Love had a peak year of 26 pts and 13 rebs, just averaged above 26pts twice in 15 years.
Gilbert Arenas had one year with 29 pts, 6 assists in his 11 year career.

Yeah, that's the whole point of the thought exercise like this. Comparing a guy with an insane peak and one with a really long healthy career.

So a player with a "Fluke year" would appear to be a better player than the guy who consistently put up good/not great numbers for a span of 10 years or so,

Yes. I'm at a complete loss as to what's confusing you. Larry Bird didn't have better longevity than Robert Parrish too. Do you have a problem with me using a very narrow context to rank Parish over Bird?

Words have meanings so we can communicate. A fluke year can be a player's peak. Some guys have 3-4 objectively similar "peak" years and we can debate when the player's peak was. Even leonard we could debate 2017 vs 2019.

[dhsilv2]

Kobe averaged 20 fga per game for his career and had multiple seasons in which he averaged over 30 points per game for the season. Leonard so far is averaging 15 fga per game and his highest scoring season is 27 points per game for the year. Kobe had higher scoring volume but Leonard is more efficient.

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

To me a peak is at least 3 seasons. Lets look at Leonard. He only has 2 seasons in his entire career where he has played 70 plus games:

15/16 and 16/17
During these two years he averaged 23/6/3 on crazy high efficiency. He was top 5 in mvp voting both years and 1st team all defense.

Kobe has a 5 year peak from 05/06 to 09/10 where he was arguably the best player in the league or top 3 at least. He put up 30/6/5 during these 5 seasons while winning an mvp and being top 5 in voting the other 4 years. Kobe was also 1st team all defense these years as well.

The problem with Leonard has always been durability. Dude cant play 60 out of 82 games and we say he had a great season. Kobe all day and i didnt even like the guy.

That's like saying you climbed Everest and got to all 5 peaks of the mountain. No...you got to the peak, the highest point!

You're discussing their prime.

[CodeBreaker]

Yeah, that's the whole point of the thought exercise like this. Comparing a guy with an insane peak and one with a really long healthy career.

So a player with a "Fluke year" would appear to be a better player than the guy who consistently put up good/not great numbers for a span of 10 years or so,

Yes. I'm at a complete loss as to what's confusing you. Larry Bird didn't have better longevity than Robert Parrish too. Do you have a problem with me using a very narrow context to rank Parish over Bird?

Words have meanings so we can communicate. A fluke year can be a player's peak. Some guys have 3-4 objectively similar "peak" years and we can debate when the player's peak was. Even leonard we could debate 2017 vs 2019.

Funny how people say Kawhi only had a fluke year like he wasn't some MVP type of player from 2016-2021 lol

[dhsilv2]

So a player with a "Fluke year" would appear to be a better player than the guy who consistently put up good/not great numbers for a span of 10 years or so,

Yes. I'm at a complete loss as to what's confusing you. Larry Bird didn't have better longevity than Robert Parrish too. Do you have a problem with me using a very narrow context to rank Parish over Bird?

Words have meanings so we can communicate. A fluke year can be a player's peak. Some guys have 3-4 objectively similar "peak" years and we can debate when the player's peak was. Even leonard we could debate 2017 vs 2019.

Funny how people say Kawhi only had a fluke year like he wasn't some MVP type of player from 2016-2021 lol

The fluke I guess was being healthy. But I legit had him as MVP in 2017. I'm hardly a huge fan of his.

[JRoy]

It's a tie!

Given Kawhi is better on offense and miles better on D I'm struggling to see Kobe's argument tbh.

More shots!