To tank or retool?

[ConSarnit]

I understand the logic given you’re lower on the raps next year. If Masai can reclaim Lowry - imagine what happens if Wigs decides to turn his brain on to match his evident gifts?

It’s one of those swings for high end talent (imo Wiggins) that makes sense for both teams. Brown and Boucher (or McDaniels) are useful pieces in that they shuffle the decks for two teams in need of a narrative shift. Gsw banks on Kuminga and Podz, we bank on Wigs.

I would trade Brown and McDaniels for Wiggins alone. No picks coming back. That frees up roster space and makes it hard for GSW not to bite.

Iq/MLE (Melton)
Rj/Gradey
Wigs/Ochai
Scottie/Kelly
Jak/#19 (Edey)/Boucher

We can explore trades for Boucher at the deadline.

Wiggins couldn’t keep his brain turned on while playing with some of the greatest players of all-time. Bringing him here to what stands to be a middling team seems like a bad idea. And to what end? So we win 36 games next year and maybe make the play in?

What is the point of win now moves when we have no idea how good the core may or may not be? If Barnes and IQ are the neo-Siakam and FVV (impact-wise) were still going to need high end talent. We should not be making any win now moves until we see what the BBQ core looks like.

I also don’t really know why GSW is giving away Wiggins. Brown and McDaniels don’t save them any money next year and probably make them a worse team. If they need to clear money they can waive CP3 and his $30m. If they are willing to dump Wiggins that should be enough warning about what they actually think about Wiggins considering how in demand legit 3+D wings are. If GSW thinks Wiggins is good then they should keep him because his archetype is valuable. If they think he is a bad contract why are we taking him on for free?

I have no desire to make moves that put us in the 30-40 win range. We either need to win 25 games next year or 40+ games next year on the backs of Barnes and IQ’s development. Anything in the middle doesn’t make much sense to me.

Gsw moves on from Wiggins to give their younger options a chance and to build depth on their team. They get out from his term. As you suggest, they also move on from CP3. Both those moves can happen. Waiving CP3 makes Brown a more valuable piece for GSW anyway - and arguably a better fit on their roster.

There’s something to be said for a fresh start. Yes, Wiggins’ archetype is valuable. It’s why we’re interested. Yes, Wiggins has flaws. It’s why he’s available.

As for adding Wiggins and why I would do this now - it’s for the term on his contract (cost certainty in a rising cap), his redemption arc story (elite talent, less than elite drive), his skillset/position (big wing with bounce), and because he’s Canadian.

If the BBQ core is as you suggest similar to Fred and Pascal, the hope is that the system and player development make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. The trades I’ve suggested don’t take away from player development or MLE signings. Heck, it’s even possible to absorb Wigs contract (or part of it) if we have cap space eg. by relinquishing Gary’s cap hold.

Wiggins isn’t the only option. We could do something similar via signing say Derrick Jones Jr. with cap space. We could also do this through drafting well. We can also potentially do both - depending on who’s available with the MLE and BAE. For me, a sure thing is always better than a crapshoot in the draft along with the developmental timeline that accompanies a young player.

I think we are just at odds over win-now type moves. I am probably lower on the team than you are next year (only time will tell who is right). As such, I don't want to make win-now moves, especially on big question marks like Wiggins, who already had a redemption arc in the 2022 finals and then regressed back again. I have zero trust in him redeeming himself again on a lower level team like ours. We should not be acquiring players when we have to use the terms "redemption arc" and "Canadian" to describe their positives.

While I like DJJ, I am extremely wary of signing role payers who look good while playing next to one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. DDJ is having a career shooting year in DAL while playing with an elite distributor and he's still only shooting 34% from 3. If that dips any lower his fit on most teams becomes questionable. If he is not being spoon fed easy looks by Luka he becomes much less valuable imo. For comparison, see Bruce Brown in Denver vs Bruce Brown in Toronto.

Guys like Wiggins and DJJ are very far from sure things. Both have big question marks from years and years of less than stellar play. They could also contribute to the "Poeltl-factor", which is solid role players bumping our win totals and hurting our draft position, which leads to neither making the playoffs or getting a top 5 draft pick, ie. the worst place to be in the league.

Re: Golden State and Wiggins. How does Brown make them better? He's a worse shooter than Wiggins, and shooting is something GSW really needs. They are probably a wash defensively. Brown also makes $23m. If you remove Wiggins/CP3 but add Brown to GSW they are still only left with the MLE. Basically you've swapped out Wiggins for Brown to save $3m. I think almost every team would rate Wiggins higher than Brown. Brown is overpaid by about double. Wiggins might be overpaid by about $4-5m. I also don't see how Wiggins is holding their other young guys back. Kuminga largely plays PF and Podz plays SG, so all three can and have played together. Over 232 minutes (GSW's most used lineup) Curry/Podz/Wiggins/Kuminga/Draymond were +12.3 net rating on the season, which is very good. Klay is no longer a starter level player so there isn't a logjam for playing time (assuming Klay even comes back). Even if the idea is to clear Wiggins salary for next year that still doesn't get GSW very far. If GSW re-signs Klay, Kuminga's and Moody's cap holds still only give GSW about $25m in cap space, which is the exact amount to sign an Andrew Wiggins level player. It's not likely GSW can get to max space next year unless they are going to let Klay walk.

[ConSarnit]

I doubt MLSE would ever okay entering a season with the plan to tank. Maximizing ticket sales is all they care about. That being said this team has a massive talent deficiency both top end talent wise and depth wise. Obvious answer is accumulating top assets (tanking) but that's never gonna happen.

The one positive with the parity around the league, combined with the lottery odds, is teams do not need to tank the full season for a shot at a decent pick. They can choose to tank hard halfway or even in the last third of the season, and put themselves in a position to get a high pick.

Correct. Its worked for us before.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

If I had to guess I'd say this is how our FO views things. At some point the core will (or will not) make the leap. Given their ages it could be this year. So, you give them a chance to see where they are for the first 3rd of the season and pivot if it's not going well. Does throwing away the season from the get-go make sense anymore? I don't know. Top 3 pick odds:

Worst record: 40%
4th worst: 38%
5th worst: 31%

It's not that huge of a gap anymore. If you think you can tank to 4th-5th worst it might not make sense to tear it down to the studs depending on your team. For the Wizards it makes sense because they seemingly have no one ready to make a leap but for us do we want to throw away a season if Barnes + IQ are both playing at all-star levels? For a 9% better chance at a top 3 pick?

[JB7]

The one positive with the parity around the league, combined with the lottery odds, is teams do not need to tank the full season for a shot at a decent pick. They can choose to tank hard halfway or even in the last third of the season, and put themselves in a position to get a high pick.

Correct. Its worked for us before.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

If I had to guess I'd say this is how our FO views things. At some point the core will (or will not) make the leap. Given their ages it could be this year. So, you give them a chance to see where they are for the first 3rd of the season and pivot if it's not going well. Does throwing away the season from the get-go make sense anymore? I don't know. Top 3 pick odds:

Worst record: 40%
4th worst: 38%
5th worst: 31%

It's not that huge of a gap anymore. If you think you can tank to 4th-5th worst it might not make sense to tear it down to the studs depending on your team. For the Wizards it makes sense because they seemingly have no one ready to make a leap but for us do we want to throw away a season if Barnes + IQ are both playing at all-star levels? For a 9% better chance at a top 3 pick?

Keep in mind also, the teams the Raps would need to pass to have the worst record: Portland who should be horrid in the West next year, the Wiz and the Pistons. After those 3, every other team may be trying to compete. We'll need to see what moves the summer brings, to see if any hardline tankers emerge (teams dumping talent).

For teams that have talent, trying to compete for the highest lottery odds with teams that have chosen to dump all of their high end talent, becomes extremely difficult.

[PushDaRock]

You need more than 3 guys.

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

[ArthurVandelay]

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

Yes, Siakam was all-nba. fvv as an allstar. But those teams didn’t do much.

I couldn’t disagree more on blowing it up. Things take time. Players don’t develop overnight. Teams don’t come together immediately. Depth takes time to acquire when you have none. The best talent usually comes from the top of the lottery. The best outcome for Toronto long term is getting another Scottie talent and that means picking in the lottery.

If I was Masai I’d be setting up for 2025-2026.

[PushDaRock]

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

Yes, Siakam was all-nba. fvv as an allstar. But those teams didn’t do much.

I couldn’t disagree more on blowing it up. Things take time. Players don’t develop overnight. Teams don’t come together immediately. Depth takes time to acquire when you have none. The best talent usually comes from the top of the lottery. The best outcome for Toronto long term is getting another Scottie talent and that means picking in the lottery.

If I was Masai I’d be setting up for 2025-2026.

How much more developing are you expecting from Scottie, IQ and RJ if they're in year 4,5 and 6 and leading us to 25 wins? They should be either entering or perhaps even already in their prime right now.

[YogurtProducer]

You need more than 3 guys.

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

You also cant look at tlast season without acknowledging that we had about 4 different variations of the team, and the final one (AKA - the one we have now) did not play more than 10 games together. Seriously. We had ONE lineup play more than 9 games together (that included guys still on the team) and that was only 10 (164 mins) of the "starting lineup" and had a NTRG of +10.3

27-32 wins is such a crazy low number to say is the "ceiling".

[YogurtProducer]

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

Yes, Siakam was all-nba. fvv as an allstar. But those teams didn’t do much.

I couldn’t disagree more on blowing it up. Things take time. Players don’t develop overnight. Teams don’t come together immediately. Depth takes time to acquire when you have none. The best talent usually comes from the top of the lottery. The best outcome for Toronto long term is getting another Scottie talent and that means picking in the lottery.

If I was Masai I’d be setting up for 2025-2026.

Your post is all over the place.

Siakm was all-nba, and the expectation should be that is where Barnes is next season.

FVV was an all-star, but I seem to recall everyone calling it fake. So it was fake until now where it is convenient? Either way, all-star FVV was a 20/7 guy. IQ after the trades was a 19/7 guy. It is not inconceivable to think a young guy could have a jump in him.

Player don't develop overnight - you are correct there. But if you think Scottie/IQ/RJ/Poeltl/GTJ has a ceiling of being the 26th best team in the league then we might as well trade all 5 because thats pathetic.

IMO - if we win 27 games next year I am trading those guys all next off-season and just going full tank mode. If they can't muster 30 wins (assuming good health) then they are not worth ****.

[PushDaRock]

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

You also cant look at tlast season without acknowledging that we had about 4 different variations of the team, and the final one (AKA - the one we have now) did not play more than 10 games together. Seriously. We had ONE lineup play more than 9 games together (that included guys still on the team) and that was only 10 (164 mins) of the "starting lineup" and had a NTRG of +10.3

27-32 wins is such a crazy low number to say is the "ceiling".

Let's assume none of our guys improve at all, but we get some average health. That would still mean the core 3 averaging 60 points between them on about average efficiency. Then you have Poeltl and KO as extremely efficient offensive players for another 20 points or so combined and you already have 80 points there on above average efficiency. If they brought back Trent, that's another dependable scorer for 12-15 a game albeit on a bit below average efficiency. Add all that up and you basically need very little from the rest of the roster to get pretty close to mediocrity or at least it shouldn't be anywhere close to a 30 win ceiling.

[YogurtProducer]

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

You also cant look at tlast season without acknowledging that we had about 4 different variations of the team, and the final one (AKA - the one we have now) did not play more than 10 games together. Seriously. We had ONE lineup play more than 9 games together (that included guys still on the team) and that was only 10 (164 mins) of the "starting lineup" and had a NTRG of +10.3

27-32 wins is such a crazy low number to say is the "ceiling".

Let's assume none of our guys improve at all, but we get some average health. That would still mean the core 3 averaging 60 points between them on about average efficiency. Then you have Poeltl and KO as extremely efficient offensive players for another 20 points or so combined and you already have 80 points there on above average efficiency. If they brought back Trent, that's another dependable scorer for 12-15 a game albeit on a bit below average efficiency. Add all that up and you basically need very little from the rest of the roster to get pretty close to mediocrity or at least it shouldn't be anywhere close to a 30 win ceiling.

Im not denying that 30 wins is out the realm of possibilities, but to say that is the CEILING is just insanity to me.

30 wins is the ceiling if none of our young guys improve and we have injuries maybe. But assuming health and slight growth (not to mention, some continuity throughout the season) should put our CEILING at like 43-48 wins. Most likely outcome closer to 37-42 wins, and the lowest end 31-36 wins (but with tanking, can easily get into the 20s)

[ArthurVandelay]

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

Yes, Siakam was all-nba. fvv as an allstar. But those teams didn’t do much.

I couldn’t disagree more on blowing it up. Things take time. Players don’t develop overnight. Teams don’t come together immediately. Depth takes time to acquire when you have none. The best talent usually comes from the top of the lottery. The best outcome for Toronto long term is getting another Scottie talent and that means picking in the lottery.

If I was Masai I’d be setting up for 2025-2026.

How much more developing are you expecting from Scottie, IQ and RJ if they're in year 4,5 and 6 and leading us to 25 wins? They should be either entering or perhaps even already in their prime right now.

IQ is pretty much what he is. If he can maintain his Raptor starter numbers that would be good

RJ is still 23. I expect him to get better but ultimately to be a 6th man. DD is one of his idols and I see similarities in approach to the game and work ethic. I wasn’t a DD fan, understatement, but his devotion to getting better sure made me respect him, especially after he left.

Based on Scottie’s role in high school and college, then growing into his new role, I expect a couple of more years of development. I think he is a late bloomer.

Derozans first allstar appearance was at 25. Lowry was 28 and his best years were 28-33 as a raptor.

It takes time to develop young players and develop depth, outside the rare Gay-type trades.

I think you need to be patient and enjoy the ride. Getting rid of those guys now because they aren’t going to win next year is shortsighted and would likely very easily lead to situation like Detroit.

[YogurtProducer]

Yes, Siakam was all-nba. fvv as an allstar. But those teams didn’t do much.

I couldn’t disagree more on blowing it up. Things take time. Players don’t develop overnight. Teams don’t come together immediately. Depth takes time to acquire when you have none. The best talent usually comes from the top of the lottery. The best outcome for Toronto long term is getting another Scottie talent and that means picking in the lottery.

If I was Masai I’d be setting up for 2025-2026.

How much more developing are you expecting from Scottie, IQ and RJ if they're in year 4,5 and 6 and leading us to 25 wins? They should be either entering or perhaps even already in their prime right now.

IQ is pretty much what he is. If he can maintain his Raptor starter numbers that would be good

RJ is still 23. I expect him to get better but ultimately to be a 6th man. DD is one of his idols and I see similarities in approach to the game and work ethic. I wasn’t a DD fan, understatement, but his devotion to getting better sure made me respect him, especially after he left.

Based on Scottie’s role in high school and college, then growing into his new role, I expect a couple of more years of development. I think he is a late bloomer.

Derozans first allstar appearance was at 25. Lowry was 28 and his best years were 28-33 as a raptor.

It takes time to develop young players and develop depth, outside the rare Gay-type trades.

I think you need to be patient and enjoy the ride. Getting rid of those guys now because they aren’t going to win next year is shortsighted and would likely very easily lead to situation like Detroit.

Comments like "IQ is pretty much what he is" is just a weird comment to make. He is 25 to start next year, starting for the first full season of his career, and already showed strids from NYK to TOR in a time where he barely had practice time. How can we POSSIBLY say he is what he is? RJ has room to grow, but IQ who is 12 months older and has way less startng experience is who he is?

IQ in March averaged 19/6/10
IQ in April averaged 23/6/8

I don't think he should be counted out as a guy who could take a leap.

Just weird how you start your post with IQ is what he is, but then by the end you say we need to be patient... what is it? Are they finished products or can they grow?

Winning 27 games this year without any injuries would be a major issue for our future. That means RJ/IQ/Barnes are not core pieces and we need to probably re-start.

[ArthurVandelay]

How much more developing are you expecting from Scottie, IQ and RJ if they're in year 4,5 and 6 and leading us to 25 wins? They should be either entering or perhaps even already in their prime right now.

IQ is pretty much what he is. If he can maintain his Raptor starter numbers that would be good

RJ is still 23. I expect him to get better but ultimately to be a 6th man. DD is one of his idols and I see similarities in approach to the game and work ethic. I wasn’t a DD fan, understatement, but his devotion to getting better sure made me respect him, especially after he left.

Based on Scottie’s role in high school and college, then growing into his new role, I expect a couple of more years of development. I think he is a late bloomer.

Derozans first allstar appearance was at 25. Lowry was 28 and his best years were 28-33 as a raptor.

It takes time to develop young players and develop depth, outside the rare Gay-type trades.

I think you need to be patient and enjoy the ride. Getting rid of those guys now because they aren’t going to win next year is shortsighted and would likely very easily lead to situation like Detroit.

Comments like "IQ is pretty much what he is" is just a weird comment to make. He is 25 to start next year, starting for the first full season of his career, and already showed strids from NYK to TOR in a time where he barely had practice time. How can we POSSIBLY say he is what he is? RJ has room to grow, but IQ who is 12 months older and has way less startng experience is who he is?

IQ in March averaged 19/6/10
IQ in April averaged 23/6/8

I don't think he should be counted out as a guy who could take a leap.

Just weird how you start your post with IQ is what he is, but then by the end you say we need to be patient... what is it? Are they finished products or can they grow?

Winning 27 games this year without any injuries would be a major issue for our future. That means RJ/IQ/Barnes are not core pieces and we need to probably re-start.

Have you noticed I did not reply to any of your posts?

You’re attacking me for a difference of opinion, putting words in my mouth, and generally being an ****.

Chill the **** out

[YogurtProducer]

IQ is pretty much what he is. If he can maintain his Raptor starter numbers that would be good

RJ is still 23. I expect him to get better but ultimately to be a 6th man. DD is one of his idols and I see similarities in approach to the game and work ethic. I wasn’t a DD fan, understatement, but his devotion to getting better sure made me respect him, especially after he left.

Based on Scottie’s role in high school and college, then growing into his new role, I expect a couple of more years of development. I think he is a late bloomer.

Derozans first allstar appearance was at 25. Lowry was 28 and his best years were 28-33 as a raptor.

It takes time to develop young players and develop depth, outside the rare Gay-type trades.

I think you need to be patient and enjoy the ride. Getting rid of those guys now because they aren’t going to win next year is shortsighted and would likely very easily lead to situation like Detroit.

Comments like "IQ is pretty much what he is" is just a weird comment to make. He is 25 to start next year, starting for the first full season of his career, and already showed strids from NYK to TOR in a time where he barely had practice time. How can we POSSIBLY say he is what he is? RJ has room to grow, but IQ who is 12 months older and has way less startng experience is who he is?

IQ in March averaged 19/6/10
IQ in April averaged 23/6/8

I don't think he should be counted out as a guy who could take a leap.

Just weird how you start your post with IQ is what he is, but then by the end you say we need to be patient... what is it? Are they finished products or can they grow?

Winning 27 games this year without any injuries would be a major issue for our future. That means RJ/IQ/Barnes are not core pieces and we need to probably re-start.

Have you noticed I did not reply to any of your posts?

You’re attacking me for a difference of opinion, putting words in my mouth, and generally being an ****.

Chill the **** out

Not sure where I attacked, or put words in your mouth. Would love to know where either of those things happened.

Only attack I see is you calling me an *** if we wanna be serious. Sheesh man - people are allowed to disagree with you.

[Scase]

To do what? Win more than 30 games?

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

I am far from a fan of FVV/Siakams games and impact, but even I wont say that a team with Scottie, OG, Siakam, and FVV isn't going to be a better team than Scottie, RJ, and IQ. Come on man lol.

If that team only managed 41 wins, you think that it would be out of this world for a less talented team with less depth, could lose 11 more games?

Am I confident that they will be a 25 win team? Nah, but I'm a lot more confident that they will be a 30 win team without any major attempts to tank, than a .500 team.

[YogurtProducer]

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

I am far from a fan of FVV/Siakams games and impact, but even I wont say that a team with Scottie, OG, Siakam, and FVV isn't going to be a better team than Scottie, RJ, and IQ. Come on man lol.

If that team only managed 41 wins, you think that it would be out of this world for a less talented team with less depth, could lose 11 more games?

Am I confident that they will be a 25 win team? Nah, but I'm a lot more confident that they will be a 30 win team without any major attempts to tank, than a .500 team.

Why does this board struggle so hard with the fact the games actually have to be played and are not played on a spreadsheet.

Look no further than the 2021 Raptors winning 27 games. Then the 2022 Raptors winning 48 games. That same team that than "improved" by adding Poeltl and won only 41 games.

or the 2013 Raptor winning 34 games and the 2014 Raptors winning 48 games without any meaningful "talent" upgrades.

Every. Single. Year. We have teams who drastically destroy their prior year win total without making wholesale massive changes. Mostly happens with younger teams or teams who make moves removing the "blockage" from vets to let younger pieces grow together. If anything, the Raptors are a prime candidate to have a breakout season with olds vets being tosses aside and a group of hungry young guys trying to prove themselves. Not to mention, a decent bench with actual NBA players which is extremely important in the regular season.

I just really, really don't think you guys get how bad teams have to be to only win 30 games without major tanking efforts.

[Merit]

Wiggins couldn’t keep his brain turned on while playing with some of the greatest players of all-time. Bringing him here to what stands to be a middling team seems like a bad idea. And to what end? So we win 36 games next year and maybe make the play in?

What is the point of win now moves when we have no idea how good the core may or may not be? If Barnes and IQ are the neo-Siakam and FVV (impact-wise) were still going to need high end talent. We should not be making any win now moves until we see what the BBQ core looks like.

I also don’t really know why GSW is giving away Wiggins. Brown and McDaniels don’t save them any money next year and probably make them a worse team. If they need to clear money they can waive CP3 and his $30m. If they are willing to dump Wiggins that should be enough warning about what they actually think about Wiggins considering how in demand legit 3+D wings are. If GSW thinks Wiggins is good then they should keep him because his archetype is valuable. If they think he is a bad contract why are we taking him on for free?

I have no desire to make moves that put us in the 30-40 win range. We either need to win 25 games next year or 40+ games next year on the backs of Barnes and IQ’s development. Anything in the middle doesn’t make much sense to me.

Gsw moves on from Wiggins to give their younger options a chance and to build depth on their team. They get out from his term. As you suggest, they also move on from CP3. Both those moves can happen. Waiving CP3 makes Brown a more valuable piece for GSW anyway - and arguably a better fit on their roster.

There’s something to be said for a fresh start. Yes, Wiggins’ archetype is valuable. It’s why we’re interested. Yes, Wiggins has flaws. It’s why he’s available.

As for adding Wiggins and why I would do this now - it’s for the term on his contract (cost certainty in a rising cap), his redemption arc story (elite talent, less than elite drive), his skillset/position (big wing with bounce), and because he’s Canadian.

If the BBQ core is as you suggest similar to Fred and Pascal, the hope is that the system and player development make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. The trades I’ve suggested don’t take away from player development or MLE signings. Heck, it’s even possible to absorb Wigs contract (or part of it) if we have cap space eg. by relinquishing Gary’s cap hold.

Wiggins isn’t the only option. We could do something similar via signing say Derrick Jones Jr. with cap space. We could also do this through drafting well. We can also potentially do both - depending on who’s available with the MLE and BAE. For me, a sure thing is always better than a crapshoot in the draft along with the developmental timeline that accompanies a young player.

I think we are just at odds over win-now type moves. I am probably lower on the team than you are next year (only time will tell who is right). As such, I don't want to make win-now moves, especially on big question marks like Wiggins, who already had a redemption arc in the 2022 finals and then regressed back again. I have zero trust in him redeeming himself again on a lower level team like ours. We should not be acquiring players when we have to use the terms "redemption arc" and "Canadian" to describe their positives.

While I like DJJ, I am extremely wary of signing role payers who look good while playing next to one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. DDJ is having a career shooting year in DAL while playing with an elite distributor and he's still only shooting 34% from 3. If that dips any lower his fit on most teams becomes questionable. If he is not being spoon fed easy looks by Luka he becomes much less valuable imo. For comparison, see Bruce Brown in Denver vs Bruce Brown in Toronto.

Guys like Wiggins and DJJ are very far from sure things. Both have big question marks from years and years of less than stellar play. They could also contribute to the "Poeltl-factor", which is solid role players bumping our win totals and hurting our draft position, which leads to neither making the playoffs or getting a top 5 draft pick, ie. the worst place to be in the league.

Re: Golden State and Wiggins. How does Brown make them better? He's a worse shooter than Wiggins, and shooting is something GSW really needs. They are probably a wash defensively. Brown also makes $23m. If you remove Wiggins/CP3 but add Brown to GSW they are still only left with the MLE. Basically you've swapped out Wiggins for Brown to save $3m. I think almost every team would rate Wiggins higher than Brown. Brown is overpaid by about double. Wiggins might be overpaid by about $4-5m. I also don't see how Wiggins is holding their other young guys back. Kuminga largely plays PF and Podz plays SG, so all three can and have played together. Over 232 minutes (GSW's most used lineup) Curry/Podz/Wiggins/Kuminga/Draymond were +12.3 net rating on the season, which is very good. Klay is no longer a starter level player so there isn't a logjam for playing time (assuming Klay even comes back). Even if the idea is to clear Wiggins salary for next year that still doesn't get GSW very far. If GSW re-signs Klay, Kuminga's and Moody's cap holds still only give GSW about $25m in cap space, which is the exact amount to sign an Andrew Wiggins level player. It's not likely GSW can get to max space next year unless they are going to let Klay walk.

Totally fair point on players looking better with generational talent around them. I don’t think Brown was used well with us given we were tanking. He looked fine in Indiana.

I’m suggesting that Brown would be useful for gsw if they dumped CP3, not that he’s better than wiggins.

As for Klay, you’d think that he’d be the player they keep for another two years and then do a full on reset after that. When does Steph’s contract expire? I feel that’s when Klay would leave.

Essentially, they’re bringing the whole gang back once or twice more while also being under the tax.

The redemption arc of the 2022 playoffs is why I feel that a true redemption is possible for Wiggins.

We agree to disagree on where the team ends up. I’m in agreement with you that they have to do more than what they have right now. We just disagree on when. You want a full tank next season and I’m about a soft tank if our trades/signings/player development isn’t going the way we’d hoped.

[PushDaRock]

Yes, Siakam was all-nba. fvv as an allstar. But those teams didn’t do much.

I couldn’t disagree more on blowing it up. Things take time. Players don’t develop overnight. Teams don’t come together immediately. Depth takes time to acquire when you have none. The best talent usually comes from the top of the lottery. The best outcome for Toronto long term is getting another Scottie talent and that means picking in the lottery.

If I was Masai I’d be setting up for 2025-2026.

How much more developing are you expecting from Scottie, IQ and RJ if they're in year 4,5 and 6 and leading us to 25 wins? They should be either entering or perhaps even already in their prime right now.

IQ is pretty much what he is. If he can maintain his Raptor starter numbers that would be good

RJ is still 23. I expect him to get better but ultimately to be a 6th man. DD is one of his idols and I see similarities in approach to the game and work ethic. I wasn’t a DD fan, understatement, but his devotion to getting better sure made me respect him, especially after he left.

Based on Scottie’s role in high school and college, then growing into his new role, I expect a couple of more years of development. I think he is a late bloomer.

Derozans first allstar appearance was at 25. Lowry was 28 and his best years were 28-33 as a raptor.

It takes time to develop young players and develop depth, outside the rare Gay-type trades.

I think you need to be patient and enjoy the ride. Getting rid of those guys now because they aren’t going to win next year is shortsighted and would likely very easily lead to situation like Detroit.

Players like DeMar and Lowry who ended up peaking later on in their career are more the exception than the norm. They're also both Hall of Famers for that reason.

Not sure how you label Scottie as a late bloomer when he came in and won ROY. It's certainly possible he improves but wouldn't be based on that.

So, we're looking at a 6th man, slightly above average starter and then Scottie might improve but will take a few years? Yeah, that doesn't sound like a core you build around.

[PushDaRock]

Unless your three guys are all-nba then yeah, 27-32 games. That is the ceiling right now.

If they kill some trades, that can change. If Scottie takes the jump to all-nba and IQ/RJ become all-stars, Dick improves on the second half, Poeltl stays what he is, that can all change. Maybe they get some Jacquez or Podz impact rookies. But all together that is asking a lot outside Poeltl.

How many win streaks did the team have last year over 3 games? How many back to back wins? You can’t point to the 15 game losing streak without acknowledging their record minus the streak was 25-68, which is a .367 clip. 32 wins over 82 games is a .390 clip.

Long way to go before the start of the season, but if the plan is to bring back the main core, add a couple of rookies, and get another rotation player, then 32 wins is the best case scenario imo.

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

I am far from a fan of FVV/Siakams games and impact, but even I wont say that a team with Scottie, OG, Siakam, and FVV isn't going to be a better team than Scottie, RJ, and IQ. Come on man lol.

If that team only managed 41 wins, you think that it would be out of this world for a less talented team with less depth, could lose 11 more games?

Am I confident that they will be a 25 win team? Nah, but I'm a lot more confident that they will be a 30 win team without any major attempts to tank, than a .500 team.

I was responding to needing 3 All-NBA players on a roster with a weak bench just to avoid winning less than 30 games which is ludicrous.

I never said it was impossible for this team to win 30 games. Only that if they do that while being healthy, it's probably time to blow it all up because none of this core would be as good as we hoped and likely not worth building around.

[Scase]

Were Siakam, FVV and OG All-NBA players? They won 47 and 41 games and those teams had no bench either.

If you think this team is winning so few games, you don't believe in Scottie, RJ and IQ as a core. That's a reasonable opinion but if they are as bad as you think, I think we need to blow it all up.

I am far from a fan of FVV/Siakams games and impact, but even I wont say that a team with Scottie, OG, Siakam, and FVV isn't going to be a better team than Scottie, RJ, and IQ. Come on man lol.

If that team only managed 41 wins, you think that it would be out of this world for a less talented team with less depth, could lose 11 more games?

Am I confident that they will be a 25 win team? Nah, but I'm a lot more confident that they will be a 30 win team without any major attempts to tank, than a .500 team.

I was responding to needing 3 All-NBA players on a roster with a weak bench just to avoid winning less than 30 games which is ludicrous.

I never said it was impossible for this team to win 30 games. Only that if they do that while being healthy, it's probably time to blow it all up because none of this core would be as good as we hoped and likely not worth building around.

Fair enough, I took it as they couldn't get to 30 wins regardless.

That said, if they do end up that bad, I don't think it's a sign to blow it up per se, especially if the team is like 3-4 players deep, that's just a **** roster lol.

But I'm not sold on this core at all, so while I don't think it should be blown up, I also think we NEED another year or two around the 25-30 win mark.