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2024 Draft Thread - Part II

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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1241 » by closg00 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 5:57 pm

tontoz wrote:
closg00 wrote:
tontoz wrote:

That's because we actually waited to see what was wrong rather than stupidly making an assumption and pretending that we know what is wrong.

We knew the truth would come out before draft night.


Making the call to pass on Topic was based on facts, not assumptions, he suffered a knee injury (fact), then had to leave a game after suffering a non-contact injury to the same knee. F**k no, hard pass, insisting on drafting him @2 AFTER these ^ events is what’s stupid.



You may not be aware of this but injuries can vary in severity.

You didn't want to draft him before the 2nd injury and you just used that as an excuse to say we shouldn't draft him.You aren't fooling anyone other than possibly yourself.


I was against drafting him after the first knee injury , and even more-so after the 2nd, the only people doing any fooling were the ones that hand waved his knee injuries to begin with.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1242 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:00 pm

gesa2 wrote:It’d be funny if after all this debate here the Wiz take Clingan at #2, the one player none of us seem to think they’ll go for.


The Wiz are absolutely trying to get a top 5 pick or higher next season. Why would they draft a guy who could immediately help them (at least defensively) right out of college? Now if he was Latvian...
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1243 » by tontoz » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:04 pm

closg00 wrote:I was against drafting him after the first knee injury , and even more-so after the 2nd, the only people doing any fooling were the ones that hand waved his knee injuries to begin with.



Nonsense. When his second injury first happened our initial reaction was uh oh that looked bad. I don't remember anyone acting like it wasn't a big deal at the time it happened.

Then reports came out that he was expected to participate in predraft workouts and the injury wasn't serious. None of us assumed it wasn't serious, we were paying attention to what was actually being reported which turned out to be wrong.

We also knew that a medical exam was coming before draft night so we would eventually know for sure how serious it was.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1244 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:04 pm

80sballboy wrote:
gesa2 wrote:It’d be funny if after all this debate here the Wiz take Clingan at #2, the one player none of us seem to think they’ll go for.


The Wiz are absolutely trying to get a top 5 pick or higher next season. Why would they draft a guy who could immediately help them (at least defensively) right out of college? Now if he was Latvian...

I agree that the Wizards are better off with a long term project than an NBA-ready guy, but that alone isn't enough to not draft Clingan if they really do think he is the best player on the board. This team isn't winning more than 25 games with or without Clingan.

That said, if Clingan is there at #2 and we are thinking about drafting him, I'd hope they are shopping hard to trade down. There are a handful of teams in the lottery that really want win-now help at center, like Memphis and Charlotte. I'd try and trade down to the 6-9 range while adding a good 2025 pick.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1245 » by Jay81 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:09 pm

J-Ves wrote:If we can pry Sac’s late lotto pick from them I’d consider Topic there, but absolutely no way at 2


if you heard the press conference yesterday....Dawkins dosent care about you now but he will in 2-3 years
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1246 » by closg00 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:16 pm

Bagley and Holmes are both expiring, that’s probably why mockers were penciling-in Clingan at 2 until recently, it’s safe money betting that we will have at-least one front court prospect from this draft.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1247 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:21 pm

nate33 wrote:
80sballboy wrote:
gesa2 wrote:It’d be funny if after all this debate here the Wiz take Clingan at #2, the one player none of us seem to think they’ll go for.


The Wiz are absolutely trying to get a top 5 pick or higher next season. Why would they draft a guy who could immediately help them (at least defensively) right out of college? Now if he was Latvian...

I agree that the Wizards are better off with a long term project than an NBA-ready guy, but that alone isn't enough to not draft Clingan if they really do think he is the best player on the board. This team isn't winning more than 25 games with or without Clingan.

That said, if Clingan is there at #2 and we are thinking about drafting him, I'd hope they are shopping hard to trade down. There are a handful of teams in the lottery that really want win-now help at center, like Memphis and Charlotte. I'd try and trade down to the 6-9 range while adding a good 2025 pick.


I trust in the new FO but I just don't see Clingan going that high with a limited ceiling over a guy like Saar, if he's available. I'd prefer trading down as well, but I doubt that happens in this draft where there's not a huge difference between 10 and 1.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1248 » by 80sballboy » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:23 pm

closg00 wrote:Bagley and Holmes are both expiring, that’s probably why mockers were penciling-in Clingan at 2 until recently, it’s safe money betting that we will have at-least one front court prospect from this draft.


Saar is a frontcourt guy. Put 15-20 pounds on him and he can play the 5. They drafted Vucevic and will likely draft at least one more big at 26 or the 2nd round pick, not knowing if they add 1 or 2 for Kuz.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1249 » by Dat2U » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:30 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:So if I understand this correctly, we actually don't know if Castle is elite defensively because it's entirely possible it may be skewed by a guy like Clingan stopping everything. So if Castle's shooting isn't there yet, and we have true questions about his defense...what is his NBA calling card then?




Show me where Clingan is the cause of Castle's defense.

If anything it's the other way around. There's a significant sample size of games where Clingan was out with injury. We can see his effect in these games, including an uptick in minutes jumping to 30+ minutes a game, with increased rebounding, scoring, etc.

Thing is Castle helped Clingan a ton by picking up the ball handlers full press end to end, which slowed the attack to allow the slower footed Clingan to get in position under the basket. Likewise his stopping penetration allows UConn to play a drop coverage big and gave Clingan time to recover when he did challenge outside. You see how slow Clingan's lane agility scores are, so how is it he was able to recover to get into position all the time. You can talk about UConn's scheme, but Castle's full court dominance was a huge part of that scheme.

EDIT: In my dream we land Castle and Edey. Noting Edey's deceptively good lane agility scores. And Castle's excellent post entry passing game. Next to Bilal or Deni to snuff outside shooting and slow dribble drive attacks. Put Vuk as a stretch 4. We'd be huge.

He is a mountain to climb on a defense. Edey was in the 90th percentile among all draft prospects in block percentage, according to CBB Analytics, and in the 83rd percentile in blocks plus steals.

“I think it just comes with kind of realizing who I am,” he said. “I’m never going to be the wiry seven-foot guy who can — like Kevin Durant, that is never going to be me, guys like that. I’m a 7-foot-4, 300-pound guy. I’m built to be in the paint, to carve out space to protect my area. And that’s what I’m gonna keep doing. I think there’s a lot of people in the NBA that do stuff like that. (Jonas) Valančiūnas, (Ivica) Zubac, Steven Adams; guys who had a lot of success in the NBA being those paint presences. I’m going to stick to who I am and I kind of know who I am.”


But yeah, somebody would need to learn to shoot from outside LOL.


I find Edey more intriguing than Clingan. Especially if Edey can ramp the intensity up on defense without worrying about having to play 30+ minutes a night and staying out of foul trouble.

As much as Clingan's defense translates, Edey's offense does as well. Also think there's a far better chance Edey is a passable defender than Clingan is an effective shooter capable of stretching defenses.

Both have mobility concerns. Guys can 'test' well so I'm not quick to buy Edey's combine performance. Both he and Clingan will need to prove they won't get run off the floor.

Clingan also did not play huge minutes averaging a little over 20 a night. Can he be a full time C?
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1250 » by Ed Wood » Wed Jun 5, 2024 6:41 pm

I can’t really knock Clingan because it is fairly hard to imagine his not being a valuable defensive piece and clear value is something hard to come by in this draft, but I’m not that much more excited about him than Missi or Kel’el Ware and I don’t entirely understand what discourages the conclusion that you’re signing up for the Jakob Poeltl experience or a close facsimile (not as much of a slight as it might sound - I think Poeltl is a pretty valuable guy).
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1251 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 7:01 pm

Ed Wood wrote:I can’t really knock Clingan because it is fairly hard to imagine his not being a valuable defensive piece and clear value is something hard to come by in this draft, but I’m not that much more excited about him than Missi or Kel’el Ware and I don’t entirely understand what discourages the conclusion that you’re signing up for the Jakob Poeltl experience or a close facsimile (not as much of a slight as it might sound - I think Poeltl is a pretty valuable guy).

Yeah, guys like Poeltl are useful, but they're also not that hard to find. You can get one anytime you want either in free agency or maybe you have to cough up a late first or a couple of seconds.

If, after the 2026 draft, we haven't yet acquired our center of the future with any of our 2024, 2025 or 2026 picks, we can just find one in free agency then. As a matter of fact, Poeltl himself will be available if he opts into his player option. Jarrett Allen will be available too. As will Mitchell Robinson, Gafford, Naz Reid, Wendell Carter Jr., Kelly Olynyk and Robert Williams. All of those guys will be unrestricted free agents. Restricted free agents will include: Jalen Duran, Mark Williams and Walter Kessler.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1252 » by prime1time » Wed Jun 5, 2024 8:32 pm

With Topic suffering a knee injury, I think he falls in the draft. Not because it hurts his long term potential but because everyone is so close in terms of grade. That said, I wouldn’t mind sneaking back into the late lottery to take him if he falls.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1253 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 5, 2024 8:59 pm

Dat2U wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Thing is Castle helped Clingan a ton by picking up the ball handlers full press end to end, which slowed the attack to allow the slower footed Clingan to get in position under the basket. Likewise his stopping penetration allows UConn to play a drop coverage big and gave Clingan time to recover when he did challenge outside. You see how slow Clingan's lane agility scores are, so how is it he was able to recover to get into position all the time. You can talk about UConn's scheme, but Castle's full court dominance was a huge part of that scheme.

EDIT: In my dream we land Castle and Edey. Noting Edey's deceptively good lane agility scores. And Castle's excellent post entry passing game. Next to Bilal or Deni to snuff outside shooting and slow dribble drive attacks. Put Vuk as a stretch 4. We'd be huge.

He is a mountain to climb on a defense. Edey was in the 90th percentile among all draft prospects in block percentage, according to CBB Analytics, and in the 83rd percentile in blocks plus steals.

“I think it just comes with kind of realizing who I am,” he said. “I’m never going to be the wiry seven-foot guy who can — like Kevin Durant, that is never going to be me, guys like that. I’m a 7-foot-4, 300-pound guy. I’m built to be in the paint, to carve out space to protect my area. And that’s what I’m gonna keep doing. I think there’s a lot of people in the NBA that do stuff like that. (Jonas) Valančiūnas, (Ivica) Zubac, Steven Adams; guys who had a lot of success in the NBA being those paint presences. I’m going to stick to who I am and I kind of know who I am.”


But yeah, somebody would need to learn to shoot from outside LOL.


I find Edey more intriguing than Clingan. Especially if Edey can ramp the intensity up on defense without worrying about having to play 30+ minutes a night and staying out of foul trouble.

As much as Clingan's defense translates, Edey's offense does as well. Also think there's a far better chance Edey is a passable defender than Clingan is an effective shooter capable of stretching defenses.

Both have mobility concerns. Guys can 'test' well so I'm not quick to buy Edey's combine performance.


I think Edey can be significantly mobile in a small area if that makes any sense. He stays upright and balanced, and runs with short choppy steps. It looks awkward but its how they initially teach kids to skate in hockey, you have better balance and maneuverability if you keep your legs under you and chop them faster. Tough for us to tell a seven foot four giant how to move his body, he's a different species of dinosaur. If all he needs to do is dance for 2.9 seconds in and out of the paint, I think he can do that. He can use those hockey skills to float backwards, sideways, adjust to cut off angles which was a significant portion of his defense in college. More so than blocking shots he cut off lanes by being 2-3 lanes all by himself. Brook does this better than anyone, close off alleys by being in the way. Or being in the way to be in the way.

However to play a drop-only Big you need to stall the ball carriers and at least slow down penetration. What I said about the synergy between Clingan and Castle. Castle made every damn possession difficult. He would pick up full court or before the logo and smother a guy. He would refuse switches and drop under the pick but recover in time, so he guarded both the roll man and the shooter on the same possession. On good shooters he would blast over the top of the pick and remain stuck to the ballcarrier, is not scared to take a hit by the screener, and as he gets bigger he is going to punish the pick man.

If you can stall penetration your drop big has time to adjust regardless of the action. If you can force their scorer to pass, they end up with a short clock and a long heave where your giant can snare the miss. If they are trying to go small to force you to chase, that leaves your dominant rebounder by himself underneath. But defense is about making sure the blanket is long enough to cover the feet and the head. You need both the deterrent in the paint and the guys who make it hard to get there.

Yes ideally you want a dominant two way beast who is mobile enough to roam and recover. Why people are trying to pretend Sarr might develop a heart and somehow become scary. But in Edey you get a no-question dominant beast -- who might simply need a little help to stay on the court. Challenging the opposite ballhandler is the best way to do that. Imagine Purdue with Castle instead of their little guy at PG. You don't think Castle and Edey would have had as good chemistry as did Clingan? Or would Hurley have won a title if he had Edey instead of Clingan? Would UConn have even lost a game all year?
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1254 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 5, 2024 9:18 pm

doclinkin wrote:Frankly I think Tristen Newton will prove a solid pro, not sure why he is entirely overlooked. He's a Spurs or Heat type player, immediately fitting in as a big PG.



Oh excellent.
Tristen Newton did work out for the Spurs (Bucks, Nuggets).
AND Looks like he also worked out for us.




Two time champion, four triple doubles in his UConn career. One of the smartest ballers in the game, I'd love him at 52. Would trade up to take him anywhere in the 2nd round, and I have the sense he will outperform many of the players taken ahead of him. Gamer.


We also worked out Taran Armstrong of Cairns Taipans.

Have to say NBL games are fun to watch. Rough and tumble style of ball with a lot of end to end action. WAAAAY too many logos on the court. I think Sarr got injured slipping on one this year. But I like the crazy colors on all the uniforms.

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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1255 » by NatP4 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 9:45 pm

prime1time wrote:With Topic suffering a knee injury, I think he falls in the draft. Not because it hurts his long term potential but because everyone is so close in terms of grade. That said, I wouldn’t mind sneaking back into the late lottery to take him if he falls.


Worst case scenario seems to be grade 2 sprain, reconstructive surgery, most likely out for all of 2024-2025. Returns to the court in summer league next year, 19 years old going on 20.

The team and Givony reported a non-severe injury that did not require surgery. Made it sound like a grade 1 sprain/no tear, and Topic would be a full participant in basketball activities in early June. Seems like this was completely false.

Doesn’t seem like there’s any way to avoid surgery. Probably just awaiting direction from his future team. Don’t think he drops too far. Maybe 7-12 range.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1256 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 5, 2024 10:08 pm

NatP4 wrote:
prime1time wrote:With Topic suffering a knee injury, I think he falls in the draft. Not because it hurts his long term potential but because everyone is so close in terms of grade. That said, I wouldn’t mind sneaking back into the late lottery to take him if he falls.


Worst case scenario seems to be grade 2 sprain, reconstructive surgery, most likely out for all of 2024-2025. Returns to the court in summer league next year, 19 years old going on 20.

The team and Givony reported a non-severe injury that did not require surgery. Made it sound like a grade 1 sprain/no tear, and Topic would be a full participant in basketball activities in early June. Seems like this was completely false.

Doesn’t seem like there’s any way to avoid surgery. Probably just awaiting direction from his future team. Don’t think he drops too far. Maybe 7-12 range.


Non NCAA players have until June 16 to withdraw from the draft. I suspect Topic stays in, given more competition next year and high mocks, but there may be some FIBA players who drop out to re-enter next year.
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1257 » by NatP4 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 10:15 pm

doclinkin wrote:Non NCAA players have until June 16 to withdraw from the draft. I suspect Topic stays in, given more competition next year and high mocks, but there may be some FIBA players who drop out to re-enter next year.


What are we going to argue about now?

Pivoting back to my #2(and at times my #1): Reed Sheppard. What do you think about this comparison:

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=reed-sheppard--chris-paul
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1258 » by closg00 » Wed Jun 5, 2024 10:51 pm

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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1259 » by J-Ves » Wed Jun 5, 2024 10:55 pm

Jay81 wrote:
J-Ves wrote:If we can pry Sac’s late lotto pick from them I’d consider Topic there, but absolutely no way at 2


if you heard the press conference yesterday....Dawkins dosent care about you now but he will in 2-3 years

:oops: Please Dawkins care about me now :oops:
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Re: 2024 Draft Thread - Part II 

Post#1260 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 5, 2024 11:19 pm

NatP4 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Non NCAA players have until June 16 to withdraw from the draft. I suspect Topic stays in, given more competition next year and high mocks, but there may be some FIBA players who drop out to re-enter next year.


What are we going to argue about now?

Pivoting back to my #2(and at times my #1): Reed Sheppard. What do you think about this comparison:

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=reed-sheppard--chris-paul


I know right? I miss when PIF would irritate me and we could have an obnoxious little slap fight. But I'm sure the board is better for it. Now that he has mellowed somehow.

Okay yes: If Sheppard's efficiency stays stable with increased usage then he is a HOF player and everyone will kick themselves for doubting him.

But, I have my doubts because:

Calipari's teams warp stats. System does not translate directly. He recruits the best talent, then plays all of them. Primary attackers have to share, robbing possessions from each other. Secondary players stats are amped by operating in gravity wells.

Sheppard showed he is a great player at taking advantage of his opportunities. He had more opportunities for those efficient shots than he might on a team where he was a lead guard. Reeves was gonna shoot more than anyone. Dillingham is too creative with the ball and makes defenses scramble. With a 30% usage rate despite coming off the bench. Nobody was gameplanning to stop Sheppard (7th on the team in shots/40, usage etc).

BUT. The times where he asserted himself he played well and took over. When he was tapped to play lead guard he did well. I would have been curious to see him next year.

He does not have an advanced handle, is not quicker than his man. All he did was make the right pass and fundamentally sound play every time. The thing he does that reminds me of Chris Paul is to use spacing and timing to get open. And his sense of timing is next level. Don't slip a screen on him, he will shoot the split second he gets around the pick.

Thing is everything he did was at the exact bleeding edge of the margin for error. Like defenders miss by that much. He blocked a shot with the ridges of his fingerprint. (Except steals. He knew you were going to pass before you knew it. He would bait players into making that pass then get there before the ball got even half way). Does that part slip when he faces better athletes? Does his read and react somehow speed up with veteran repetitions? He already plays like a vet, how much more vet can he get?

He's a little bit older for his draft class. Does that affect his upside?

But he's a damned good player. He will find a way to adjust. I think he does play as a floor commander guard. He does not fit the mold of 'positional length' that Dawkins and all look for. But maxes out the skill and BBIQ portions.

To me I don't think Chris Paul. I think John Stockton. And not for the obvious reasons, but because he lacks the yoyo handle that Paul showed in college. The footwork in traffic. Elusiveness and poise with the ball. What he did show was the determination and toughness we came to expect from Stockton. John Stockton too won with being the most fundamentally sound player on the floor. You knew what he was going to do, knew you could outquick and outjump him. But you still could not stop him because he read the plays better than you. That's Sheppard to a T.

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