2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[penbeast0]

. . . And then there's the other 90% of his career.

[ronnymac2]

When I see fans who clearly love both basketball and the NBA's product not also be a fan of Kyrie Irving...I don't understand it.

Kyrie has been at worst a top-5 draw for the league and possibly its most influential player of the past 15 years alongside Steph, CP3, and of course LeBron. Legendary Finals performances, the GOAT ball-handler, an Olympic Gold Medalist, and maybe most importantly...there's a reason why his peers have so much respect for him on and off the floor. It's great to see the GOAT speak so glowingly about his former teammate - and vice versa. The league's new preeminent mega star in Luka speaks highly of him as well.

Kyrie Irving is an artist trapped in a basketball player's body. And the game and the league are better for it, which is why it was difficult for me to understand the vitriol thrown at him a few years ago.

It's great to see his success in DAL, especially with such a likable team around him. I hope to see it continue.

[jalengreen]

When I see fans who clearly love both basketball and the NBA's product not also be a fan of Kyrie Irving...I don't understand it.

Kyrie has been at worst a top-5 draw for the league and possibly its most influential player of the past 15 years alongside Steph, CP3, and of course LeBron. Legendary Finals performances, the GOAT ball-handler, an Olympic Gold Medalist, and maybe most importantly...there's a reason why his peers have so much respect for him on and off the floor. It's great to see the GOAT speak so glowingly about his former teammate - and vice versa. The league's new preeminent mega star in Luka speaks highly of him as well.

Kyrie Irving is an artist trapped in a basketball player's body. And the game and the league are better for it, which is why it was difficult for me to understand the vitriol thrown at him a few years ago.

It's great to see his success in DAL, especially with such a likable team around him. I hope to see it continue.

Surprised to see CP3 in that list and not, say, KD.

Anyway, nothing you said here addressed some pretty clear non-basketball reasons for the vitriol Kyrie received. Most people did not criticize Kyrie because they disliked his basketball talent or his artistry. Much of the criticism he received was centered on (a) his social media activity, which people felt was promoting antisemitism, (b) his open position of vaccine resistance during the pandemic, and (c) miscellaneous divisive activity such as using his platform to share Alex Jones content. And this all lines up with "a few years ago," of course.

Not to draw this discussion in a non-basketball direction ... but the topic does extend beyond basketball and I sorta hate this retroactive revisionism I've seen to on that Kyrie saga. Yes, the league is better because of Kyrie's talent. That's exactly why his behavior was so disappointing. I believe that most fans would like to see *this* version of Kyrie continue.

[sp6r=underrated]

When I see fans who clearly love both basketball and the NBA's product not also be a fan of Kyrie Irving...I don't understand it.

It isn't hard to understand. I'm a guy who can't stand Kyrie and I'll explain my position. He's shown a shocking lack of professionalism for over half a decade resulting in him being actively harmful to the teams he played for for most of those years. He has also does a lot of things off the court I find extremely hard to ignore.

He is really fun to watch. And I love the fact he doesn't foul bait. But when you behave in the manner he did for 5+ years you're going to get critics.

[parsnips33]

Personally, my biggest beef with Kyrie has to do with what he's done on the court

As we get further and further from 2016 I only find it easier to like him

[Doctor MJ]

When I see fans who clearly love both basketball and the NBA's product not also be a fan of Kyrie Irving...I don't understand it.

It isn't hard to understand. I'm a guy who can't stand Kyrie and I'll explain my position. He's shown a shocking lack of professionalism for over half a decade resulting in him being actively harmful to the teams he played for for most of those years. He has also does a lot of things off the court I find extremely hard to ignore.

He is really fun to watch. And I love the fact he doesn't foul bait. But when you behave in the manner he did for 5+ years you're going to get critics.

Yeah I'm in a similar boat here, and it's basically the same issue as with Kanye.

I like a lot of Kanye's music.
I hate what Kanye became in the moments when he wasn't making music.
Kanye dropping a new album with good tunes isn't going to make forget the other stuff.

Best thing I can say about Kyrie off-the-court is that he didn't take his rhetoric as far as Kanye did - never went explicit with his antisemitism the way Kanye did - but that's an incredibly low bar.

I'm glad to see Kyrie shut up and make music on the court, and I do enjoy watching him play - he's a unique aesthetic talent - but I'll never be able to truly thinking about "Kyrie" without thinking about the arrogant nutjobbery he displayed for years.

[Outside]

I've posted a couple of times that this postseason is the best I've seen Kyrie play, but that is strictly what he's doing as a player right now and doesn't get into whether I "like" him, which is a more complicated issue. He has been a negative influence in Brooklyn and Boston, and arguably also at the end of his stay in Cleveland. His political and social stances put him in a bad light with me. He's got a lot of baggage to overcome to get to likeable for me.

AFAIK, he hasn't engaged in that kind of stuff in Dallas. He looks like he is a good teammate from what I see during games and media sessions. I don't think he's inherently a bad person, and I like to think most people are redeemable despite their past. We'll see where things go from here.

It would help his cause to be seen more in situations like this, which make him far more relatable.

[Texas Chuck]

People should be allowed to like or not like whomever.

I never liked Mike, Kobe, or Wade despite all of them being the type of player almost everyone else enjoys. It just wasn't for me.

But Dre Miller? Could watch him every night. I could watch Nique dunk for days. Vlade will be happy with that I'm a fan. I'm the world's only JJ Barea stan. Or Ferrari Doe stan. Or Maxi Kleber.

We like what we like. Like Kyrie? cool. Don't? You owe no explanations or apologies.

[Outside]

People should be allowed to like or not like whomever.

I never liked Mike, Kobe, or Wade despite all of them being the type of player almost everyone else enjoys. It just wasn't for me.

But Dre Miller? Could watch him every night. I could watch Nique dunk for days. Vlade will be happy with that I'm a fan. I'm the world's only JJ Barea stan. Or Ferrari Doe stan. Or Maxi Kleber.

We like what we like. Like Kyrie? cool. Don't? You owe no explanations or apologies.

Great, right after I give an explanation, you say you don't wanna hear explanations

[Doctor MJ]

I've posted a couple of times that this postseason is the best I've seen Kyrie play, but that is strictly what he's doing as a player right now and doesn't get into whether I "like" him, which is a more complicated issue. He has been a negative influence in Brooklyn and Boston, and arguably also at the end of his stay in Cleveland. His political and social stances put him in a bad light with me. He's got a lot of baggage to overcome to get to likeable for me.

AFAIK, he hasn't engaged in that kind of stuff in Dallas. He looks like he is a good teammate from what I see during games and media sessions. I don't think he's inherently a bad person, and I like to think most people are redeemable despite their past. We'll see where things go from here.

So first I'll say: I do think he clearly came into Dallas with a different attitude than he did in Brooklyn, and that's great! No two ways about it. Aside from everything else, it's frustrating to me that everything really seemed to change the moment his franchise (Nets) wouldn't guarantee him as much money as they possibly could after he was so cavalier about losing money due to personally chosen missed time - but it clearly woke him up, and that's for the best.

Re: not an inherently bad person. Not generally language I'd use, but I'd agree that there positive things about Kyrie as a person, and the roots of his issues are things are kinda part and parcel of culture right now:

- The world is now full of people who fall for conspiracy theories that make them feel grandiose and righteous.
- Kyrie happens to be an outlier talent at something that you can go from poor to billionaire from in today's culture, and at a thing so well scouted that many of these players never know what it's like to not feel special.

You tie those two things together and let them loop, you're going to get NBA players that a) think they are smarter than everyone else, b) think ridiculous things, and c) think thinking those ridiculous things is more proof they are smarter than everyone else. Kyrie absolutely isn't unique on this, he's only unique in specific way he demonstrated his membership in this club.

[Texas Chuck]

Great, right after I give an explanation, you say you don't wanna hear explanations

LOL

I didn't say I didn't want to hear it. I was just saying it feels unnecessary to ever justify which player/team(s) you choose to be a fan of or not.

I love hearing who people like.

[sp6r=underrated]

I do think he clearly came into Dallas with a different attitude than he did in Brooklyn, and that's great! . . . it's frustrating to me that everything really seemed to change the moment his franchise (Nets) wouldn't guarantee him as much money as they possibly could after he was so cavalier about losing money due to personally chosen missed time

This is a good point but I want to expand on this key point. I'm not super GM Centric in my player evaluations but to really do player evaluations you do need to think about it somewhat from management's perspective.

If I owned a team in 2011 with all the knowledge we have now about Kyrie the professional and player I'd pass on drafting him. If my GM drafted him despite my preference I would order him to offload him as quickly as possible. And I'm convinced that is the right decision which is highly damning.

He's going to miss a ton of games. Over the 13 years he's been in the NBA he's averaged 57 games in the RS on a pro-rated schedule. He missed playoff games in 4 of the 9 years his team made the playoffs. He's going to do things that alienate my fans. He's highly charismatic so he'll be a negative influence on my dimmer players. And as good as he is on the court he is nowhere near the level of a player where you just say F-it, I'll put up with it.

[Doctor MJ]

I do think he clearly came into Dallas with a different attitude than he did in Brooklyn, and that's great! . . . it's frustrating to me that everything really seemed to change the moment his franchise (Nets) wouldn't guarantee him as much money as they possibly could after he was so cavalier about losing money due to personally chosen missed time

This is a good point but I want to expand on this key point. I'm not super GM Centric in my player evaluations but to really do player evaluations you do need to think about it somewhat from management's perspective.

If I owned a team in 2011 with all the knowledge we have now about Kyrie the professional and player I'd pass on drafting him. If my GM drafted him despite my preference I would order him to offload him as quickly as possible. And I'm convinced that is the right decision which is highly damning.

He's going to miss a ton of games. Over the 13 years he's been in the NBA he's averaged 57 games in the RS on a pro-rated schedule. He missed playoff games in 4 of the 9 years his team made the playoffs. He's going to do things that alienate my fans. He's highly charismatic so he'll be a negative influence on my dimmer players. And as good as he is on the court he is nowhere near the level of a player where you just say F-it, I'll put up with it.

I like thinking in the "How eager would I be to draft him?" manner, and also like doing re-drafts.

For me realistically, it's not that I wouldn't draft him and draft him pretty high, but wherever I drafted him I'd be thinking long and hard about what I was risking by adding him to core.

[Clyde Frazier]

People should be allowed to like or not like whomever.

I never liked Mike, Kobe, or Wade despite all of them being the type of player almost everyone else enjoys. It just wasn't for me.

But Dre Miller? Could watch him every night. I could watch Nique dunk for days. Vlade will be happy with that I'm a fan. I'm the world's only JJ Barea stan. Or Ferrari Doe stan. Or Maxi Kleber.

We like what we like. Like Kyrie? cool. Don't? You owe no explanations or apologies.

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[sp6r=underrated]

- The world is now full of people who fall for conspiracy theories that make them feel grandiose and righteous.

This is driven mainly by techonology. The Media had more power to gatekeep prior to WiFi and especially prior to cable. The collapse of that gatekeeping power has done a lot of good. But it has also made it way easier to spread conspiracy theories among people low in social trust.

I doubt there is an easy solution to this problem.

[jalengreen]

When this team is rolling it's really a sight to see man lol

[GSP]

Kp>>>>>>Baguette Biyombo

funny nickname aside Kp is a better twoway player than Rudy and i dont think its that close. Hes already defended the pick and roll and lobs better and offensive theres a canyon of a gap w/ Rudy only being a great screener and a useless body on offense outside of that. He is prolly a top 5 center when healthy similar overall impact to Bam Imo if not greater

[jalengreen]

The Gobert obsession of NBA fans fr needs to be studied

[GSP]

The Gobert obsession of NBA fans fr needs to be studied

Hes on a 200mill contract while being a useless offensive player outside of screening and catching open lobs. Prioritizes his teams offenses by not being able to punish guards or do anything onball having his team play 4v5 on offense. Then while a great defender he has his playoff issues against smart potent spread offenses.

If he was making half his contract and didnt have the amount of Dpoys he did which not all were deserved he wouldnt get the same criticism. He is simply overrated and grossly overpaid thats the main issue. If he got paid Jarrett Allen money which is his level of play i doubt hed get the same hate

Its like when Iso Joe got that preposterous contract in the late 2000s and he was always made fun of and criticized even tho he was a solid player just grossly overpaid. Rudy is the defensive version of that

[ronnymac2]

Okay, well, I appreciate all the responses regarding Kyrie Irving.

Surprised to see CP3 in that list and not, say, KD.

If you asked student-athletes during that timeframe who their favorite player was or who they wanted to be like...for sure Durant was high, but Paul/Irving/Curry were extremely common responses. I would guess because skilled PGs are simply more relatable...more likely to be able to emulate them.