DaRon Holmes - Dayton

[Hal14]

Something about Holmes’ game worries me. He’s a bit too wild. Maybe it was just an expanded role but he took so many wild shots and his touch around the rim is bad. He might end up like Precious Achiuwa which is probably ok for a pick in this draft.

He screams like a good stats player on a horrible team. He's going to average 22 pts ppg someday on a team like the Hornets

I doubt DaRon Holmes ever averages 22 PPG in the NBA..

[FarBeyondDriven]

there's always guys that end up putting up scoring numbers on bad teams and Holmes is talented enough that if he landed on a bad team and got the FGA he could do it too. This year it was Miller and Thomas, year before it was Green, Keldon Johnson and Rozier. I think he'll end up getting drafted in the late 1st so landing on a better team will make this very unlikely though.

[bucknut]

Feel like he has Denver written all over him to backup joker. DeAndre Jordan is unplayable to continue that high center hub offense. He simply has to be drafted by someone like Denver to be successful imo. Or the way Denver uses Gordon as the dunkers spot he could backup Gordon.

A smart agent would tell Holmes to take himself off the board for that fit.

If Holmes is at traditional 4 how much are you giving up on offense because it feels like you could have more athletic 4 even like a pj Washington offers alot more on offense.

[greg4012]

Feel like he has Denver written all over him to backup joker. DeAndre Jordan is unplayable to continue that high center hub offense. He simply has to be drafted by someone like Denver to be successful imo. Or the way Denver uses Gordon as the dunkers spot he could backup Gordon.

A smart agent would tell Holmes to take himself off the board for that fit.

If Holmes is at traditional 4 how much are you giving up on offense because it feels like you could have more athletic 4 even like a pj Washington offers alot more on offense.

How does PJ Washington offer a lot more on offense as a 4?

Holmes and PJ had nearly identical assist/turnover numbers as sophomores and Holmes made a clear jump in that regard as a junior. They created a very similar amount of their own offense, with Holmes doing so at a higher rate as a higher usage player.

[bucknut]

Feel like he has Denver written all over him to backup joker. DeAndre Jordan is unplayable to continue that high center hub offense. He simply has to be drafted by someone like Denver to be successful imo. Or the way Denver uses Gordon as the dunkers spot he could backup Gordon.

A smart agent would tell Holmes to take himself off the board for that fit.

If Holmes is at traditional 4 how much are you giving up on offense because it feels like you could have more athletic 4 even like a pj Washington offers alot more on offense.

How does PJ Washington offer a lot more on offense as a 4?

Holmes and PJ had nearly identical assist/turnover numbers as sophomores and Holmes made a clear jump in that regard as a junior. They created a very similar amount of their own offense, with Holmes doing so at a higher rate as a higher usage player.

Pj, rui, jerami Grant any classic strech....let's use Reid as he is someone Holmes gets compared to. Do we think Holmes has the ability to attack closeouts and slash of Naz ? Can he even attack like towns ?

Holmes looks rather awkward and lacks explosion. He is most comfortable in a crab position with his back to basket. His shot is a very slow setup and release too. I think shooting a contested close out 3 on the swing will be trouble for him and the pickup to drive in afraid he is too deliberate and slow

His post game I feels kind of gets nullified vs real competition.

He's a unique player ....it feels like something is there but

I think he's more of a 5 but everyone says he's a power forward

[greg4012]

Feel like he has Denver written all over him to backup joker. DeAndre Jordan is unplayable to continue that high center hub offense. He simply has to be drafted by someone like Denver to be successful imo. Or the way Denver uses Gordon as the dunkers spot he could backup Gordon.

A smart agent would tell Holmes to take himself off the board for that fit.

If Holmes is at traditional 4 how much are you giving up on offense because it feels like you could have more athletic 4 even like a pj Washington offers alot more on offense.

How does PJ Washington offer a lot more on offense as a 4?

Holmes and PJ had nearly identical assist/turnover numbers as sophomores and Holmes made a clear jump in that regard as a junior. They created a very similar amount of their own offense, with Holmes doing so at a higher rate as a higher usage player.

Pj, rui, jerami Grant any classic strech....let's use Reid as he is someone Holmes gets compared to. Do we think Holmes has the ability to attack closeouts and slash of Naz ? Can he even attack like towns ?

Holmes looks rather awkward and lacks explosion. He is most comfortable in a crab position with his back to basket. His shot is a very slow setup and release too. I think shooting a contested close out 3 on the swing will be trouble for him and the pickup to drive in afraid he is too deliberate and slow

His post game I feels kind of gets nullified vs real competition.

He's a unique player ....it feels like something is there but

I don't see any deficiency in his attacking closeouts tbh. He looks damn good at it for a player that didn't get tasked with playing from the perimeter until this past season. It's actually shocking that, considering the fact he didn't really play from the perimeter until year 3, he has better playmaking numbers than most starting PFs in the NBA did in their last year before college (I specifically looked at the multi-year college guys, as freshman bigs rarely have plus playmaking numbers).

For someone that lacks explosion, how do you explain Holmes being top 6 in the NCAA each of the past 3 seasons in dunks? Holmes is one of 5 players 6'10 or under to have 89 dunks in a college season since 2008. The other 4 are AD, Bam, Obi Toppin, and Montrezl Harrell.

I don't see post up as a big part of his pro game. That should be reserved mostly as a matchup beater off the switch. His offensive game should be rim runner off the PnR, C&S 3s, and attack off the closeout.

He's been one of the best rim runners in college since his FR year when that's all he did on offense. Dude just stacks more skills onto his foundational strengths.

His shot is a little slow, so we'll see if he continues to develop there.

Holmes is high-waisted and has a funky build. He does look a little awkward out there. But, I think it may be deceiving when weighed against how/if it limits him

[bucknut]

How does PJ Washington offer a lot more on offense as a 4?

Holmes and PJ had nearly identical assist/turnover numbers as sophomores and Holmes made a clear jump in that regard as a junior. They created a very similar amount of their own offense, with Holmes doing so at a higher rate as a higher usage player.

Pj, rui, jerami Grant any classic strech....let's use Reid as he is someone Holmes gets compared to. Do we think Holmes has the ability to attack closeouts and slash of Naz ? Can he even attack like towns ?

Holmes looks rather awkward and lacks explosion. He is most comfortable in a crab position with his back to basket. His shot is a very slow setup and release too. I think shooting a contested close out 3 on the swing will be trouble for him and the pickup to drive in afraid he is too deliberate and slow

His post game I feels kind of gets nullified vs real competition.

He's a unique player ....it feels like something is there but

I don't see any deficiency in his attacking closeouts tbh. He looks damn good at it for a player that didn't get tasked with playing from the perimeter until this past season. It's actually shocking that, considering the fact he didn't really play from the perimeter until year 3, he has better playmaking numbers than most starting PFs in the NBA did in their last year before college (I specifically looked at the multi-year college guys, as freshman bigs rarely have plus playmaking numbers).

For someone that lacks explosion, how do you explain Holmes being top 6 in the NCAA each of the past 3 seasons in dunks? Holmes is one of 5 players 6'10 or under to have 89 dunks in a college season since 2008. The other 4 are AD, Bam, Obi Toppin, and Montrezl Harrell.

I don't see post up as a big part of his pro game. That should be reserved mostly as a matchup beater off the switch. His offensive game should be rim runner off the PnR, C&S 3s, and attack off the closeout.

He's been one of the best rim runners in college since his FR year when that's all he did on offense. Dude just stacks more skills onto his foundational strengths.

His shot is a little slow, so we'll see if he continues to develop there.

Holmes is high-waisted and has a funky build. He does look a little awkward out there. But, I think it may be deceiving when weighed against how/if it limits him

Watch on YouTube

5640 and 5735 he gets blocked trying to drive to the hoop. He is long and lengthy athletic yes....but doesn't explode and he takes time to gather after the dribble. His successful drives were against out of shape college 5s but most of his points came via assists on dunks from teammates or iso plays with back to basket on a team that force fed him the ball. He has a great iso spin that allowed him to get away from the d for dunks.

He won't have that luxury of having the whole offense run through him with his crawl dribble unless he's in Denver. He's a slow player and prefers the offensive system to be that way. Would not be a good player for a Celtics style system.....doesn't react well in quick reaction environment imo

Overall I think I'm down on him more now. I think he needs to play the joker role and do back to basket handoffs with Murray

For being touted as such a good passer it's weird he only averaged 2.5 a game

[greg4012]

Pj, rui, jerami Grant any classic strech....let's use Reid as he is someone Holmes gets compared to. Do we think Holmes has the ability to attack closeouts and slash of Naz ? Can he even attack like towns ?

Holmes looks rather awkward and lacks explosion. He is most comfortable in a crab position with his back to basket. His shot is a very slow setup and release too. I think shooting a contested close out 3 on the swing will be trouble for him and the pickup to drive in afraid he is too deliberate and slow

His post game I feels kind of gets nullified vs real competition.

He's a unique player ....it feels like something is there but

I don't see any deficiency in his attacking closeouts tbh. He looks damn good at it for a player that didn't get tasked with playing from the perimeter until this past season. It's actually shocking that, considering the fact he didn't really play from the perimeter until year 3, he has better playmaking numbers than most starting PFs in the NBA did in their last year before college (I specifically looked at the multi-year college guys, as freshman bigs rarely have plus playmaking numbers).

For someone that lacks explosion, how do you explain Holmes being top 6 in the NCAA each of the past 3 seasons in dunks? Holmes is one of 5 players 6'10 or under to have 89 dunks in a college season since 2008. The other 4 are AD, Bam, Obi Toppin, and Montrezl Harrell.

I don't see post up as a big part of his pro game. That should be reserved mostly as a matchup beater off the switch. His offensive game should be rim runner off the PnR, C&S 3s, and attack off the closeout.

He's been one of the best rim runners in college since his FR year when that's all he did on offense. Dude just stacks more skills onto his foundational strengths.

His shot is a little slow, so we'll see if he continues to develop there.

Holmes is high-waisted and has a funky build. He does look a little awkward out there. But, I think it may be deceiving when weighed against how/if it limits him

Watch on YouTube

5640 and 5735 he gets blocked trying to drive to the hoop. He is long and lengthy athletic yes....but doesn't explode and he takes time to gather after the dribble. His successful drives were against out of shape college 5s but most of his points came via assists on dunks from teammates or iso plays with back to basket on a team that force fed him the ball. He has a great iso spin that allowed him to get away from the d for dunks.

He won't have that luxury of having the whole offense run through him with his crawl dribble unless he's in Denver. He's a slow player and prefers the offensive system to be that way. Would not be a good player for a Celtics style system.....doesn't react well in quick reaction environment imo

Yes he's been blocked before over the course of his 3 season career. I think you're way overstating any lack of explosion. Let me ask you this: How does someone that needs to function out of a back to the basket "crab position" end up being one of the most prolific college dunkers of the past decade?

He's a methodical player that succeeded in differing and expanded roles each season:

(1) Freshman - exclusively as a rim runner/finisher (a part of his game that is most translatable to the NBA, but you seem to completely ignore). Here are his contemporaries in terms of FRESHMAN numbers (dataset begins in 2008):



(2) Sophomore - Became a post up player and the foundation of his team's entire offense. In this higher usage role, he was #2 in the entire NCAA in total dunks on the season (89);

(3) Junior: Built off of his total game and added a heavier dose of perimeter play, including creating more of his own offense from the perimeter and hitting nearly 39% of his 3s (2.5 per game). Here's a total list of players who have ever shown as much of a 2-way inside-outside game in college as Daron (dataset begins in 2008):



He's the next version of the increasingly valuable hybrid BIG that can fit on a lot of teams as either a Center or PF depending on teammates' skillsets. There are a lot of teams where he can very effectively fit alongside star centers or PFs. I see his ideal early role being a team's 3rd big (think Naz Reid, Bobby Portis)

For being touted as such a good passer it's weird he only averaged 2.5 a game

Who is touting him as some next level passer? He showed clear progress over his 3 seasons with court vision, passing and playmaking for others. That's an important skillset for his succeeding in a perimeter role at the next level. Fun fact, Holmes' JR season Assist Volume and A/TO ratio was higher than each of the following starting PFs in the NBA in college (all of which at least played thru their Soph year of college):

Dorian Finney-Smith
Pascal Siakam
PJ Washington
Rui Hachimura
Jerami Grant
Keegan Murray
Kyle Kuzma

There are at least 10 more starting NBA PFs that Holmes clears in terms of college playmaking production, but most were 1 and done players (or international), so I don't think that's as apt of a comparison. I will note that Holmes playmaking production in college also clears that of Naz Reid, Bobby Portis, and Al Horford (3 guys who fit a similar hybrid BIG role that Holmes projects to).

IMO the fact that he won't have the "luxury" to have the whole offense run through him mostly means that he'll face a lot less double teams and defensive focus.

I think one of my favorite things about Holmes as a prospect is the fact that his aesthetics are leading to such a big divergence in his draft stock. Should be fun to see how it unfolds.

[bucknut]

The problem is his playmaking style requires him to be the hub of the offense.

In a tertiary role. How will that deliberate methodical style slow shot and need to pound the ball while his teammates watch translate ? He will have to make quick offensive reactions and decisions going from one of the slowest tempo and set offensive playing styles.

where I do see some potential is in the Aaron Gordon dunkers spot role. Hes not a conventional stretch 4. Playing him near the basket and elbow at the 4 is smart where the game can be slowed down for him he can catch lob dunks or continue his back to basket game or his developing jumper. He also could work in the joker role ... only occasionally being above the 3.

He is scoring on iso situations right now in a pascal siakem way....slithering his body sneakily around you ...the problem is he doesn't have the smoothness in his drive ability to do that from the 3. He has to paskal siakem his way from the elbow and under.

His offensive success and value is going to be determined by his iso ability from the mid post more then people think. If he is just a lob threat and shot blocker I'll take bona or Dante all day over him

[BlazersBroncos]

He can absolutely adapt his style to a lower usage guy in the Portis mold IMO.

[greg4012]

He can absolutely adapt his style to a lower usage guy in the Portis mold IMO.

Right--dude is just making absolute declarations solely because Holmes was compelled to play a high usage style in college. Most of the best NBA role players were high usage in college and showed flashes of adapting to a complementary role. If nothing else, Holmes has proven to be one of the most adaptable players in this draft class IMO

[bucknut]

He can absolutely adapt his style to a lower usage guy in the Portis mold IMO.

I actually indicated he could ....if you notice most of portis is mid block dunker isos.

Tho imo portis is rather high usage when he backs down someone for 5 seconds.

Just don't see a catch and shoot quick decision stretch 4

If Denver drafts him I absolutely think he can succeed. I mean it's gonna happen...booth is rather quirky just like Holmes and the system fits.

[The Moose]

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Brutal

[tester551]

Read on Twitter

Brutal

Terrible. I was hoping that he'd have a great rookie season

[TheFire]

Curious to see how this guy does this season coming off a brutal injury.

[SeattleJazzFan]

any idea if he will play in summer league? my guess is they'd hold him out to be safe, but who knows.

[FarBeyondDriven]

any idea if he will play in summer league? my guess is they'd hold him out to be safe, but who knows.

19/17/5 with 2 steals yesterday. The Nuggets badly need him to be a major contributor if they have championship aspirations this year.

[BigGargamel]

any idea if he will play in summer league? my guess is they'd hold him out to be safe, but who knows.

19/17/5 with 2 steals yesterday. The Nuggets badly need him to be a major contributor if they have championship aspirations this year.

I don't think so. Valanciunas and Watson are going to absorb most of the backup 4/5 minutes. This year is about Holmes staying healthy and developing, and taking over when Val bounces after the year. Obviously, I'm really happy to see him out there contributing. I never care about summer league, unless it's a guy getting minutes after a serious injury.

[FarBeyondDriven]

any idea if he will play in summer league? my guess is they'd hold him out to be safe, but who knows.

19/17/5 with 2 steals yesterday. The Nuggets badly need him to be a major contributor if they have championship aspirations this year.

I don't think so. Valanciunas and Watson are going to absorb most of the backup 4/5 minutes. This year is about Holmes staying healthy and developing, and taking over when Val bounces after the year. Obviously, I'm really happy to see him out there contributing. I never care about summer league, unless it's a guy getting minutes after a serious injury.

Johnson, Murray and Gordon have all missed large chunks of recent seasons. Val is well past his prime. It's imperative that a guy like Holmes is able to stay healthy and provide the desperately needed depth if they have any hopes of winning a chip.

[BigGargamel]

19/17/5 with 2 steals yesterday. The Nuggets badly need him to be a major contributor if they have championship aspirations this year.

I don't think so. Valanciunas and Watson are going to absorb most of the backup 4/5 minutes. This year is about Holmes staying healthy and developing, and taking over when Val bounces after the year. Obviously, I'm really happy to see him out there contributing. I never care about summer league, unless it's a guy getting minutes after a serious injury.

Johnson, Murray and Gordon have all missed large chunks of recent seasons. Val is well past his prime. It's imperative that a guy like Holmes is able to stay healthy and provide the desperately needed depth if they have any hopes of winning a chip.

I agree with this, this makes sense, which is a huge backtrack from "badly need him to be a major contributor".