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Post Mortem 2023-24

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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#121 » by toooskies » Thu Jun 6, 2024 8:49 pm

mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Well, if we didn't have luxury tax considerations, I think this would be very straight forward. We'd try to keep his value as a team asset either as a player on the team at a reasonable price, or as a trade chip to any of the team's who were interested in paying him more than we thought he was worth.

Basically what happened with PJ Washington (who's 3pt shooting already took a drop .vs. the TWolves, and tbd .vs. the Celts)

As much as some people want to harp on missteps by the front office, not signing Okoro to a team-friendly extension when they had the chance should be talked about more. I don't recall reading anything about offers made/offers turned down. Okoro is not a world-beater, but if we lose him in free agency, we are one Dean Wade injury away from LeVert being our best perimeter defender.

I don't know what kind of team-friendly deal you're thinking we could have signed him to. Right now it looks like he'd get $10-15m on the market, and given the QO is $12.8m, there's no way his agent would've let him sign for less than that per year last off-season.

The Cavs try not to negotiate in public, generally.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#122 » by mcfly1204 » Thu Jun 6, 2024 9:11 pm

toooskies wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Well, if we didn't have luxury tax considerations, I think this would be very straight forward. We'd try to keep his value as a team asset either as a player on the team at a reasonable price, or as a trade chip to any of the team's who were interested in paying him more than we thought he was worth.

Basically what happened with PJ Washington (who's 3pt shooting already took a drop .vs. the TWolves, and tbd .vs. the Celts)

As much as some people want to harp on missteps by the front office, not signing Okoro to a team-friendly extension when they had the chance should be talked about more. I don't recall reading anything about offers made/offers turned down. Okoro is not a world-beater, but if we lose him in free agency, we are one Dean Wade injury away from LeVert being our best perimeter defender.

I don't know what kind of team-friendly deal you're thinking we could have signed him to. Right now it looks like he'd get $10-15m on the market, and given the QO is $12.8m, there's no way his agent would've let him sign for less than that per year last off-season.

The Cavs try not to negotiate in public, generally.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2023/10/isaac-okoro-has-no-hard-feelings-toward-cavs-after-failing-to-receive-contract-extension.html#:~:text=5%20overall%20in%20the%202020,before%20Monday's%206%20p.m.%20deadline
Well at least we're not Detroit!
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#123 » by ijspeelman » Thu Jun 6, 2024 9:27 pm

toooskies wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:We're talking about a 23 year old wing defender who just shot 39% from 3. I am pretty certain there will be a market for Okoro, just on continued upside alone.


I think rival GMs will continue to look at how he's guarded and the volume he shoots. Although, I do think he has made a concerted effort to shoot more threes (especially some with some movement), however the rate stats only show marginal volume increase since last year.

He's young, but shouldn't fetch much more than PJ Tucker has (adjusted for the cap).

Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.


I'd argue we've seen a lot of his offensive ability despite his limited role in our offense. I think possibly expanding his offense more broadly also may make it more thin.

I think there are things a coach could tap into that would make him a more effective role player, but I never see him really being any more than the occasional secondary playmaker.

If a team like the Pistons/Jazz want to pay Okoro like he has untapped offensive potential, let them at it honestly. I just think with more usage, he becomes less of a winning player
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#124 » by JujitsuFlip » Thu Jun 6, 2024 10:05 pm

ijspeelman wrote:
toooskies wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
I think rival GMs will continue to look at how he's guarded and the volume he shoots. Although, I do think he has made a concerted effort to shoot more threes (especially some with some movement), however the rate stats only show marginal volume increase since last year.

He's young, but shouldn't fetch much more than PJ Tucker has (adjusted for the cap).

Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.


I'd argue we've seen a lot of his offensive ability despite his limited role in our offense. I think possibly expanding his offense more broadly also may make it more thin.

I think there are things a coach could tap into that would make him a more effective role player, but I never see him really being any more than the occasional secondary playmaker.

If a team like the Pistons/Jazz want to pay Okoro like he has untapped offensive potential, let them at it honestly. I just think with more usage, he becomes less of a winning player
Yeahhhhhh that dude's handle is Klay Thompson-esque, woof.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#125 » by ijspeelman » Thu Jun 6, 2024 10:08 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
toooskies wrote:Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.


I'd argue we've seen a lot of his offensive ability despite his limited role in our offense. I think possibly expanding his offense more broadly also may make it more thin.

I think there are things a coach could tap into that would make him a more effective role player, but I never see him really being any more than the occasional secondary playmaker.

If a team like the Pistons/Jazz want to pay Okoro like he has untapped offensive potential, let them at it honestly. I just think with more usage, he becomes less of a winning player
Yeahhhhhh that dude's handle is Klay Thompson-esque, woof.


Honestly, his handle is fine for his current role, but if he's going to make a play off the dribble, its usually first off a cut or a pump-fake. I just don't see him getting more reps with the dribble or in the PNR with no set-up (or if he gets more reps, them going well).

I would like to see him used as a screener more tho. Feel like he could be a little Bruce Brown-y
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#126 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 7, 2024 1:18 pm

toooskies wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:We're talking about a 23 year old wing defender who just shot 39% from 3. I am pretty certain there will be a market for Okoro, just on continued upside alone.


I think rival GMs will continue to look at how he's guarded and the volume he shoots. Although, I do think he has made a concerted effort to shoot more threes (especially some with some movement), however the rate stats only show marginal volume increase since last year.

He's young, but shouldn't fetch much more than PJ Tucker has (adjusted for the cap).

Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.


This argument drives me nuts. He's gotten more unearned minutes of any player drafted by Altman besides Sexton. JB loved the kid and with Garland, Strus, and Mitchell missing time this year he got plenty of starters minutes last season and in the playoffs. We've been forced to ask him to take a bigger role in the offense due to injuries and he hasn't been up for it - especially against good teams.

If the opposing team rebounds and/or protects the rim well, his garbage points go away and you're left with his open looks which he's still very hesitant to take. He's played 4 full seasons and that problem exists entirely between his ears. He's either protecting his shooting % for reasons having to do with his contract, or it's a deeply rooted confidence issue that manifests in big moments.

The bottom line is you can't pay a guy more than the MLE if he can't give you even 10ppg as a starter against good teams.
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Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#127 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jun 7, 2024 2:25 pm

mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Well, if we didn't have luxury tax considerations, I think this would be very straight forward. We'd try to keep his value as a team asset either as a player on the team at a reasonable price, or as a trade chip to any of the team's who were interested in paying him more than we thought he was worth.

Basically what happened with PJ Washington (who's 3pt shooting already took a drop .vs. the TWolves, and tbd .vs. the Celts)

As much as some people want to harp on missteps by the front office, not signing Okoro to a team-friendly extension when they had the chance should be talked about more. I don't recall reading anything about offers made/offers turned down. Okoro is not a world-beater, but if we lose him in free agency, we are one Dean Wade injury away from LeVert being our best perimeter defender.


Depends what Isaac was willing to accept, I got the impression he wanted to bet on himself.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#128 » by mcfly1204 » Fri Jun 7, 2024 3:51 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Well, if we didn't have luxury tax considerations, I think this would be very straight forward. We'd try to keep his value as a team asset either as a player on the team at a reasonable price, or as a trade chip to any of the team's who were interested in paying him more than we thought he was worth.

Basically what happened with PJ Washington (who's 3pt shooting already took a drop .vs. the TWolves, and tbd .vs. the Celts)

As much as some people want to harp on missteps by the front office, not signing Okoro to a team-friendly extension when they had the chance should be talked about more. I don't recall reading anything about offers made/offers turned down. Okoro is not a world-beater, but if we lose him in free agency, we are one Dean Wade injury away from LeVert being our best perimeter defender.


Depends what Isaac was willing to accept, I got the impression he wanted to bet on himself.

From the sound of it, there were never any extension conversations. I would be surprised to see Okoro getting offered less than what Strus is making annually, something like 3/$45 with a third year option feels realistic. Just feels like we could have probably locked him in last summer for the same or less. If another team views Okoro as a potentially elite 3 and D guy, offering him more than $15 annually, do we match?
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#129 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 7, 2024 4:32 pm

mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:As much as some people want to harp on missteps by the front office, not signing Okoro to a team-friendly extension when they had the chance should be talked about more. I don't recall reading anything about offers made/offers turned down. Okoro is not a world-beater, but if we lose him in free agency, we are one Dean Wade injury away from LeVert being our best perimeter defender.


Depends what Isaac was willing to accept, I got the impression he wanted to bet on himself.

From the sound of it, there were never any extension conversations. I would be surprised to see Okoro getting offered less than what Strus is making annually, something like 3/$45 with a third year option feels realistic. Just feels like we could have probably locked him in last summer for the same or less. If another team views Okoro as a potentially elite 3 and D guy, offering him more than $15 annually, do we match?


First off, I'm pretty sure the other team has to guarantee at least 3 seasons of salary in an offer sheet. Second, he's not elite in either category. He averaged 3.1 3-point attempts per game. That's it. He's not tall enough to guard bigger SFs.

If you're a team that doesn't have Mitchell or Garland, let alone both, you need to ask yourself whether you can generate enough offense with Okoro on the floor, and if you can't, what does his trade value look like on the deal you just gave him.

PJ Washington took almost twice as many threes and is two inches taller than Okoro. He had to re-sign with the Hornets on a declining deal that averaged $15M per. Grant Williams averaged 1 more 3-point attempt than Okoro, is an inch taller, and signed an offer sheet for $13.5M. He was such a poor fit that Dallas traded an unprotected 1st to swap him for PJ.

Also, only a handful of teams have the cap space to make a $15M offer and it's really difficult to see any of them prioritizing Okoro with it. The Pistons and Spurs already struggle to score. The Thunder have Dort and the Magic have Suggs. So you're basically looking at the Jazz and Hornets. The Jazz need to restructure Lauri's deal or risk losing him to free agency next summer. The Hornets will have to let go of Miles if they sign Okoro.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#130 » by toooskies » Fri Jun 7, 2024 4:34 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
I think rival GMs will continue to look at how he's guarded and the volume he shoots. Although, I do think he has made a concerted effort to shoot more threes (especially some with some movement), however the rate stats only show marginal volume increase since last year.

He's young, but shouldn't fetch much more than PJ Tucker has (adjusted for the cap).

Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.


This argument drives me nuts. He's gotten more unearned minutes of any player drafted by Altman besides Sexton. JB loved the kid and with Garland, Strus, and Mitchell missing time this year he got plenty of starters minutes last season and in the playoffs. We've been forced to ask him to take a bigger role in the offense due to injuries and he hasn't been up for it - especially against good teams.

If the opposing team rebounds and/or protects the rim well, his garbage points go away and you're left with his open looks which he's still very hesitant to take. He's played 4 full seasons and that problem exists entirely between his ears. He's either protecting his shooting % for reasons having to do with his contract, or it's a deeply rooted confidence issue that manifests in big moments.

The bottom line is you can't pay a guy more than the MLE if he can't give you even 10ppg as a starter against good teams.

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#131 » by JujitsuFlip » Fri Jun 7, 2024 4:50 pm

mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:As much as some people want to harp on missteps by the front office, not signing Okoro to a team-friendly extension when they had the chance should be talked about more. I don't recall reading anything about offers made/offers turned down. Okoro is not a world-beater, but if we lose him in free agency, we are one Dean Wade injury away from LeVert being our best perimeter defender.


Depends what Isaac was willing to accept, I got the impression he wanted to bet on himself.

From the sound of it, there were never any extension conversations. I would be surprised to see Okoro getting offered less than what Strus is making annually, something like 3/$45 with a third year option feels realistic. Just feels like we could have probably locked him in last summer for the same or less. If another team views Okoro as a potentially elite 3 and D guy, offering him more than $15 annually, do we match?
Do you match that? Absolutely not. Locked into Okoro for $15 million AAV, hard pass.

The best thing the Cavs can hope for in that scenario is that Okoro and his reps come to the Cavs prior to putting pen to paper, so we can sign and trade him to that team.

If Okoro signs an offer sheet like the one you described, his days with the Cavs should be over.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#132 » by toooskies » Fri Jun 7, 2024 5:02 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Depends what Isaac was willing to accept, I got the impression he wanted to bet on himself.

From the sound of it, there were never any extension conversations. I would be surprised to see Okoro getting offered less than what Strus is making annually, something like 3/$45 with a third year option feels realistic. Just feels like we could have probably locked him in last summer for the same or less. If another team views Okoro as a potentially elite 3 and D guy, offering him more than $15 annually, do we match?


First off, I'm pretty sure the other team has to guarantee at least 3 seasons of salary in an offer sheet. Second, he's not elite in either category. He averaged 3.1 3-point attempts per game. That's it. He's not tall enough to guard bigger SFs.

If you're a team that doesn't have Mitchell or Garland, let alone both, you need to ask yourself whether you can generate enough offense with Okoro on the floor, and if you can't, what does his trade value look like on the deal you just gave him.

PJ Washington took almost twice as many threes and is two inches taller than Okoro. He had to re-sign with the Hornets on a declining deal that averaged $15M per. Grant Williams averaged 1 more 3-point attempt than Okoro, is an inch taller, and signed an offer sheet for $13.5M. He was such a poor fit that Dallas traded an unprotected 1st to swap him for PJ.

Also, only a handful of teams have the cap space to make a $15M offer and it's really difficult to see any of them prioritizing Okoro with it. The Pistons and Spurs already struggle to score. The Thunder have Dort and the Magic have Suggs. So you're basically looking at the Jazz and Hornets. The Jazz need to restructure Lauri's deal or risk losing him to free agency next summer. The Hornets will have to let go of Miles if they sign Okoro.

I'd definitely understand if the Cavs took a hard negotiating line with Okoro. There's no guarantee of an offer out there, the Cavs are right up against the tax, and the QO is a reasonable number for both sides.

But I'd argue the Pistons or Spurs might see the defense and the potential for offensive development if given an actual role and say that's better than the guys they have that are bad on both ends of the court. The Hornets are in flux. And there are trade candidates out there as well if the Cavs are uncomfortable with $15m/year but another team might be okay with it.

When I look at players similar to Okoro I look at Deni Avdija, who was pretty much forced into a role as a plus defender on the wing until they pretty much gave up post-Beal trade and saw him flourish with more responsibility. OG Anunoby was a usual-starter averaging under 11 points a game his first three years in the league, only showing lots of growth in the second half of his 4th year. Okoro's the same as those guys according to underlying usage/stats, it's just that he didn't pop in year 4.

It's very possible the Pistons, Spurs, Hornets, or Jazz consider a reasonable offer in the $15m+ range.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#133 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 7, 2024 5:36 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.


This argument drives me nuts. He's gotten more unearned minutes of any player drafted by Altman besides Sexton. JB loved the kid and with Garland, Strus, and Mitchell missing time this year he got plenty of starters minutes last season and in the playoffs. We've been forced to ask him to take a bigger role in the offense due to injuries and he hasn't been up for it - especially against good teams.

If the opposing team rebounds and/or protects the rim well, his garbage points go away and you're left with his open looks which he's still very hesitant to take. He's played 4 full seasons and that problem exists entirely between his ears. He's either protecting his shooting % for reasons having to do with his contract, or it's a deeply rooted confidence issue that manifests in big moments.

The bottom line is you can't pay a guy more than the MLE if he can't give you even 10ppg as a starter against good teams.

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.


We're a playoff team. We should be paying players based on what they can do against playoff level competition - not what they can do against the bottom half of the league (See, Niang).

Including his data as a starter in that 18-2 run is counterproductive when trying to evaluate his offensive contributions against better competition, ESPECIALLY when there's another, month-long sample size against almost exclusively playoff-level competition. It's misleading. I feel the same way about Wade and his advanced numbers which plummeted in the playoffs (except no one is arguing Wade should make +$15M per).

Good teams rebound well so his leak out points disappear. Good teams don't get confused and leave the rim unprotected so those points disappear. What's left are his open three attempts, and no he doesn't just pass on the ones where the pass is offline. He also does the Sexton thing where if he's not feeling it, he waits on the close out so he can drive (or even pass to player that's less open than him).

The entire 5th option argument is inapplicable to the minutes he played when one or more of Mitchell, Garland, Strus, and LeVert were out with injury, and there were A LOT of those minutes last season. If he's not getting more touches when his competition is the members of the SL Champs, or a guy we got off the buyout market, why not?

We needed him to step up, especially when both Mitchell and Strus were out in March, especially in Game 5 when both Mitchell and LeVert were out. He didn't, and that should inform the decision about what to pay him.
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Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#134 » by ijspeelman » Fri Jun 7, 2024 5:57 pm

toooskies wrote:You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.


I think with his selective shot selection we have seen around the role Okoro should be expected to play on a winning team. He's been a +4-5% rTS% player these last three years despite low 3P volume and this is fine especially with what he brings on defense and in transition.

I just think increasing that volume for the sake of offensive development doesn't bode well for his overall impact on winning (a la going to the Spurs or Pistons).

toooskies wrote:This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.


Just want to comment that A (plus his defense and ability to select the right shots) is exactly why you try to keep Okoro around (at the right price).

I am still out on him being held back. His high scoring game this year (22) was not really a result of expanding his role (though he did have one nice PNR touch where he drove and hit an and-one lay-up), but mainly from cuts and getting hot from three. This was a game w no Garland, Mobley, or Mitchell (which did end in a win for the Cavs) so this is one of those where we'd see his role expand.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#135 » by toooskies » Fri Jun 7, 2024 7:34 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
This argument drives me nuts. He's gotten more unearned minutes of any player drafted by Altman besides Sexton. JB loved the kid and with Garland, Strus, and Mitchell missing time this year he got plenty of starters minutes last season and in the playoffs. We've been forced to ask him to take a bigger role in the offense due to injuries and he hasn't been up for it - especially against good teams.

If the opposing team rebounds and/or protects the rim well, his garbage points go away and you're left with his open looks which he's still very hesitant to take. He's played 4 full seasons and that problem exists entirely between his ears. He's either protecting his shooting % for reasons having to do with his contract, or it's a deeply rooted confidence issue that manifests in big moments.

The bottom line is you can't pay a guy more than the MLE if he can't give you even 10ppg as a starter against good teams.

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.


We're a playoff team. We should be paying players based on what they can do against playoff level competition - not what they can do against the bottom half of the league (See, Niang).

Including his data as a starter in that 18-2 run is counterproductive when trying to evaluate his offensive contributions against better competition, ESPECIALLY when there's another, month-long sample size against almost exclusively playoff-level competition. It's misleading. I feel the same way about Wade and his advanced numbers which plummeted in the playoffs (except no one is arguing Wade should make +$15M per).

Good teams rebound well so his leak out points disappear. Good teams don't get confused and leave the rim unprotected so those points disappear. What's left are his open three attempts, and no he doesn't just pass on the ones where the pass is offline. He also does the Sexton thing where if he's not feeling it, he waits on the close out so he can drive (or even pass to player that's less open than him).

The entire 5th option argument is inapplicable to the minutes he played when one or more of Mitchell, Garland, Strus, and LeVert were out with injury, and there were A LOT of those minutes last season. If he's not getting more touches when his competition is the members of the SL Champs, or a guy we got off the buyout market, why not?

We needed him to step up, especially when both Mitchell and Strus were out in March, especially in Game 5 when both Mitchell and LeVert were out. He didn't, and that should inform the decision about what to pay him.

Because JBB wasn't going to give him development reps while coaching for his job? Because we needed both Garland and Mobley out just to get enough offensive touches to start realizing Allen's potential? Because guarding the other team's best player takes a lot of energy and we'd rather have Okoro using his energy on defense than offense?
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#136 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 7, 2024 8:55 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.


We're a playoff team. We should be paying players based on what they can do against playoff level competition - not what they can do against the bottom half of the league (See, Niang).

Including his data as a starter in that 18-2 run is counterproductive when trying to evaluate his offensive contributions against better competition, ESPECIALLY when there's another, month-long sample size against almost exclusively playoff-level competition. It's misleading. I feel the same way about Wade and his advanced numbers which plummeted in the playoffs (except no one is arguing Wade should make +$15M per).

Good teams rebound well so his leak out points disappear. Good teams don't get confused and leave the rim unprotected so those points disappear. What's left are his open three attempts, and no he doesn't just pass on the ones where the pass is offline. He also does the Sexton thing where if he's not feeling it, he waits on the close out so he can drive (or even pass to player that's less open than him).

The entire 5th option argument is inapplicable to the minutes he played when one or more of Mitchell, Garland, Strus, and LeVert were out with injury, and there were A LOT of those minutes last season. If he's not getting more touches when his competition is the members of the SL Champs, or a guy we got off the buyout market, why not?

We needed him to step up, especially when both Mitchell and Strus were out in March, especially in Game 5 when both Mitchell and LeVert were out. He didn't, and that should inform the decision about what to pay him.

Because JBB wasn't going to give him development reps while coaching for his job? Because we needed both Garland and Mobley out just to get enough offensive touches to start realizing Allen's potential? Because guarding the other team's best player takes a lot of energy and we'd rather have Okoro using his energy on defense than offense?


I don't know what a *developmental* rep is. Is that when we let him play PG in SL after his rookie season and it went about as well as the Spurs trying to force Sochan at PG? Is that when the Jazz tried to put wrinkles into their offense with Agbaji before shipping him and Olynyk off to the Raptors for a late first in this draft?

Mobley didn't have developmental reps before Allen went down, but he at least managed to get some points on the board because he didn't shrink from doing so. But even if I put stock in the argument that Cavs should do more to develop Okoro, I don't, what does that even look like after Mitchell extends? Is that like the Cavs should focus on getting Niang going when he's struggling with his shot in the playoffs?

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. If Niang can't hit his shots in the playoffs, he shouldn't see the court. If after 4 full seasons, three offseasons, and countless combinations of different units, Okoro still plays as though he's uncomfortable on offense, factor that into what you're willing to offer him.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#137 » by toooskies » Fri Jun 7, 2024 10:41 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
We're a playoff team. We should be paying players based on what they can do against playoff level competition - not what they can do against the bottom half of the league (See, Niang).

Including his data as a starter in that 18-2 run is counterproductive when trying to evaluate his offensive contributions against better competition, ESPECIALLY when there's another, month-long sample size against almost exclusively playoff-level competition. It's misleading. I feel the same way about Wade and his advanced numbers which plummeted in the playoffs (except no one is arguing Wade should make +$15M per).

Good teams rebound well so his leak out points disappear. Good teams don't get confused and leave the rim unprotected so those points disappear. What's left are his open three attempts, and no he doesn't just pass on the ones where the pass is offline. He also does the Sexton thing where if he's not feeling it, he waits on the close out so he can drive (or even pass to player that's less open than him).

The entire 5th option argument is inapplicable to the minutes he played when one or more of Mitchell, Garland, Strus, and LeVert were out with injury, and there were A LOT of those minutes last season. If he's not getting more touches when his competition is the members of the SL Champs, or a guy we got off the buyout market, why not?

We needed him to step up, especially when both Mitchell and Strus were out in March, especially in Game 5 when both Mitchell and LeVert were out. He didn't, and that should inform the decision about what to pay him.

Because JBB wasn't going to give him development reps while coaching for his job? Because we needed both Garland and Mobley out just to get enough offensive touches to start realizing Allen's potential? Because guarding the other team's best player takes a lot of energy and we'd rather have Okoro using his energy on defense than offense?


I don't know what a *developmental* rep is. Is that when we let him play PG in SL after his rookie season and it went about as well as the Spurs trying to force Sochan at PG? Is that when the Jazz tried to put wrinkles into their offense with Agbaji before shipping him and Olynyk off to the Raptors for a late first in this draft?

Mobley didn't have developmental reps before Allen went down, but he at least managed to get some points on the board because he didn't shrink from doing so. But even if I put stock in the argument that Cavs should do more to develop Okoro, I don't, what does that even look like after Mitchell extends? Is that like the Cavs should focus on getting Niang going when he's struggling with his shot in the playoffs?

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. If Niang can't hit his shots in the playoffs, he shouldn't see the court. If after 4 full seasons, three offseasons, and countless combinations of different units, Okoro still plays as though he's uncomfortable on offense, factor that into what you're willing to offer him.

It looks like running plays where Okoro is in the primary actions of the play and not the spacer/outlet valve.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#138 » by JujitsuFlip » Fri Jun 7, 2024 10:51 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Because JBB wasn't going to give him development reps while coaching for his job? Because we needed both Garland and Mobley out just to get enough offensive touches to start realizing Allen's potential? Because guarding the other team's best player takes a lot of energy and we'd rather have Okoro using his energy on defense than offense?


I don't know what a *developmental* rep is. Is that when we let him play PG in SL after his rookie season and it went about as well as the Spurs trying to force Sochan at PG? Is that when the Jazz tried to put wrinkles into their offense with Agbaji before shipping him and Olynyk off to the Raptors for a late first in this draft?

Mobley didn't have developmental reps before Allen went down, but he at least managed to get some points on the board because he didn't shrink from doing so. But even if I put stock in the argument that Cavs should do more to develop Okoro, I don't, what does that even look like after Mitchell extends? Is that like the Cavs should focus on getting Niang going when he's struggling with his shot in the playoffs?

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. If Niang can't hit his shots in the playoffs, he shouldn't see the court. If after 4 full seasons, three offseasons, and countless combinations of different units, Okoro still plays as though he's uncomfortable on offense, factor that into what you're willing to offer him.

It looks like running plays where Okoro is in the primary actions of the play and not the spacer/outlet valve.
Sounds like a terrible idea.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#139 » by toooskies » Fri Jun 7, 2024 11:57 pm

https://youtu.be/Kya0zUe0oXo

Windhorst confirming he was in error about the negotiating date w/Mitchell, it is July 1.

Also my headcanon is now that he reads realgm.
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Re: Post Mortem 2023-24 

Post#140 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 7, 2024 11:58 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Because JBB wasn't going to give him development reps while coaching for his job? Because we needed both Garland and Mobley out just to get enough offensive touches to start realizing Allen's potential? Because guarding the other team's best player takes a lot of energy and we'd rather have Okoro using his energy on defense than offense?


I don't know what a *developmental* rep is. Is that when we let him play PG in SL after his rookie season and it went about as well as the Spurs trying to force Sochan at PG? Is that when the Jazz tried to put wrinkles into their offense with Agbaji before shipping him and Olynyk off to the Raptors for a late first in this draft?

Mobley didn't have developmental reps before Allen went down, but he at least managed to get some points on the board because he didn't shrink from doing so. But even if I put stock in the argument that Cavs should do more to develop Okoro, I don't, what does that even look like after Mitchell extends? Is that like the Cavs should focus on getting Niang going when he's struggling with his shot in the playoffs?

Sometimes the simple answer is the right answer. If Niang can't hit his shots in the playoffs, he shouldn't see the court. If after 4 full seasons, three offseasons, and countless combinations of different units, Okoro still plays as though he's uncomfortable on offense, factor that into what you're willing to offer him.

It looks like running plays where Okoro is in the primary actions of the play and not the spacer/outlet valve.


Exactly. How much of that do you want to do while a game is still competitive and how many games do you want to try it? For that matter, why isn't Okoro playing with other NBA players in the offseason if that's what it's going to take?

It's his money that's impacted by his offensive limitations. The NBA is a professional league.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.

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