Political Roundtable Part XXXII

[closg00]

i'm a thirty-something who has a very low opinion of Biden, and DNC in general. i'm very likely sitting out but i'm in a very blue district.

Same, I will be voting 3rd party. Biden and establishment Dems are so embarrassingly weak, their messaging horrific. Biden is running against a man with an arms-long rap sheet and they can't wrap it around his neck effectively. Biden should have stepped-down, he is just like Strom Thurmond and Feinstein, these people don't get it that it's time to leave the stage.

[dckingsfan]

i'm a thirty-something who has a very low opinion of Biden, and DNC in general. i'm very likely sitting out but i'm in a very blue district.

Same, I will be voting 3rd party. Biden and establishment Dems are so embarrassingly weak, their messaging horrific. Biden is running against a man with an arms-long rap sheet and they can't wrap it around his neck effectively. Biden should have stepped-down, he is just like Strom Thurmond and Feinstein, these people don't get it that it's time to leave the stage.

He most certainly should have stepped down. But now your choice is Biden or Trump. It really sucks but those are the choices.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Pointgod]

I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone would choose to sit out or vote a useless third party this election. A vote is not a moral stamp of approval, it’s a choice between options that will push policies that you support in the right direction. Sitting out or voting third party won’t hurt the DNC, you’re better off getting involved in local and state parties.

This is like 2016 all over again and yes I know some of you are in what you believe are safe blue states, but a poll came out saying a state like Virginia is in play. It’s worth coming out and voting for Democrats even just to give a middle finger to Trump and MAGA. When your grand children and great grandchildren ask about what you did to prevent a Facist dictatorship, do you really want to say I did nothing? Project 2025 is real and **** scary, the rest of the world is watching you guys and we’re absolutely shocked how the hell so many of you aren’t more scared of losing your Democracy and country.

[dckingsfan]

I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone would choose to sit out or vote a useless third party this election. A vote is not a moral stamp of approval, it’s a choice between options that will push policies that you support in the right direction. Sitting out or voting third party won’t hurt the DNC, you’re better off getting involved in local and state parties.

This is like 2016 all over again and yes I know some of you are in what you believe are safe blue states, but a poll came out saying a state like Virginia is in play. It’s worth coming out and voting for Democrats even just to give a middle finger to Trump and MAGA. When your grand children and great grandchildren ask about what you did to prevent a Facist dictatorship, do you really want to say I did nothing? Project 2025 is real and **** scary, the rest of the world is watching you guys and we’re absolutely shocked how the hell so many of you aren’t more scared of losing your Democracy and country.

I get it. I'll give you a bit of perspective. Gore is running against Bush and we just got done with the Clinton years (and if you care about genocide, Rwanda). His term was basically a wholesale accommodation to the ideologies of the right wing Rs. Gore promised more of the same.

I was ticked and decided not to work at getting out the vote and just sat home and stewed Clinton's lack of leadership - he basically got nothing done.

Compared to Clinton, the Biden administration has pushed through trillions of dollars in infrastructure and key economic sectors spending. The Rs underperformed during the midterms and Biden is working with a remarkably unified party. But... he has Palestine hanging around his neck. So, they are ticked off.

Yes, we got Bush, the forever wars and we buried ourselves in debt. So, yes - it wasn't what I wanted.

But when you are ticked off to the point of apathy - you don't see what could be coming. You are in the here and now.

[dobrojim]

Until tRump, Dubya was a very strong contender for absolute WoaT POTUS.
That's what the FL Nader vote gave us.
The Stein vote in 2016 in PA, MI and WI gave us the WoaT POTUS and 3 gawdawful SCOTUS justices,
and likely all 3 will be on the court for the rest of my life.
No one is saying either HRC or Gore would have been perfect, or even close to perfect.

All that said, 3rd party or non-voting in states that are decidedly red/blue may not matter,
not that I personally recommend it. Sidenote - TX has the arguably the most effed up politics in
the country, and the lowest voter participation. Co-ink-e-dink? I think not.

What we desperately need is ranked preference voting.

The Dubya judges also gave us Citizens United, among other things, which abetted greater corruption
of our politics and the cynicism which that led to.

[Pointgod]

I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone would choose to sit out or vote a useless third party this election. A vote is not a moral stamp of approval, it’s a choice between options that will push policies that you support in the right direction. Sitting out or voting third party won’t hurt the DNC, you’re better off getting involved in local and state parties.

This is like 2016 all over again and yes I know some of you are in what you believe are safe blue states, but a poll came out saying a state like Virginia is in play. It’s worth coming out and voting for Democrats even just to give a middle finger to Trump and MAGA. When your grand children and great grandchildren ask about what you did to prevent a Facist dictatorship, do you really want to say I did nothing? Project 2025 is real and **** scary, the rest of the world is watching you guys and we’re absolutely shocked how the hell so many of you aren’t more scared of losing your Democracy and country.

I get it. I'll give you a bit of perspective. Gore is running against Bush and we just got done with the Clinton years (and if you care about genocide, Rwanda). His term was basically a wholesale accommodation to the ideologies of the right wing Rs. Gore promised more of the same.

I was ticked and decided not to work at getting out the vote and just sat home and stewed Clinton's lack of leadership - he basically got nothing done.

Compared to Clinton, the Biden administration has pushed through trillions of dollars in infrastructure and key economic sectors spending. The Rs underperformed during the midterms and Biden is working with a remarkably unified party. But... he has Palestine hanging around his neck. So, they are ticked off.

Yes, we got Bush, the forever wars and we buried ourselves in debt. So, yes - it wasn't what I wanted.

But when you are ticked off to the point of apathy - you don't see what could be coming. You are in the here and now.

I can understand apathy when it comes to Bush vs Gore, but less so in Bush’s second term, I have no idea how you guys re-elected that man after the disastrous Iraq war. However George Bush was not a threat to Democracy, he didn’t have loyalists who want to install him as a dictator or a cult ready to commit violence.

You’ve seen the Trump act the first time around and it was absolutely garbage. Second time promises to be worse and if people care about the environment, Palestine, whatever Trump is worse on every metric. And this always happens, Republicans ruin the country and Democrats are expected to fix their mess but get penalized because there’s no magic wand to push the country forward 20 years. Sitting out never sends the message you think it will. What makes sense is voting in large numbers and activism.

I would think you guys would recognize by now that there’s zero to gain from not voting or voting third party. Even a Bush 2.0 is bad enough, never mind Trump and Project 2025. I don’t even understand how it feels good in the here and now considering the alternative.

[dckingsfan]

I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone would choose to sit out or vote a useless third party this election. A vote is not a moral stamp of approval, it’s a choice between options that will push policies that you support in the right direction. Sitting out or voting third party won’t hurt the DNC, you’re better off getting involved in local and state parties.

This is like 2016 all over again and yes I know some of you are in what you believe are safe blue states, but a poll came out saying a state like Virginia is in play. It’s worth coming out and voting for Democrats even just to give a middle finger to Trump and MAGA. When your grand children and great grandchildren ask about what you did to prevent a Facist dictatorship, do you really want to say I did nothing? Project 2025 is real and **** scary, the rest of the world is watching you guys and we’re absolutely shocked how the hell so many of you aren’t more scared of losing your Democracy and country.

I get it. I'll give you a bit of perspective. Gore is running against Bush and we just got done with the Clinton years (and if you care about genocide, Rwanda). His term was basically a wholesale accommodation to the ideologies of the right wing Rs. Gore promised more of the same.

I was ticked and decided not to work at getting out the vote and just sat home and stewed Clinton's lack of leadership - he basically got nothing done.

Compared to Clinton, the Biden administration has pushed through trillions of dollars in infrastructure and key economic sectors spending. The Rs underperformed during the midterms and Biden is working with a remarkably unified party. But... he has Palestine hanging around his neck. So, they are ticked off.

Yes, we got Bush, the forever wars and we buried ourselves in debt. So, yes - it wasn't what I wanted.

But when you are ticked off to the point of apathy - you don't see what could be coming. You are in the here and now.

I can understand apathy when it comes to Bush vs Gore, but less so in Bush’s second term, I have no idea how you guys re-elected that man after the disastrous Iraq war. However George Bush was not a threat to Democracy, he didn’t have loyalists who want to install him as a dictator or a cult ready to commit violence.

You’ve seen the Trump act the first time around and it was absolutely garbage. Second time promises to be worse and if people care about the environment, Palestine, whatever Trump is worse on every metric. And this always happens, Republicans ruin the country and Democrats are expected to fix their mess but get penalized because there’s no magic wand to push the country forward 20 years. Sitting out never sends the message you think it will. What makes sense is voting in large numbers and activism.

I would think you guys would recognize by now that there’s zero to gain from not voting or voting third party. Even a Bush 2.0 is bad enough, never mind Trump and Project 2025. I don’t even understand how it feels good in the here and now considering the alternative.

Actually, I was back out on the streets after the first Bush term. So, there is that. And yes, Trump has shown himself to be worse in many respects.

I guess my comments are more to those first-time voters. Those that already experienced Trump are a bit puzzling to me, there I think it is more ignorance and manipulation.

[Kanyewest]

I get it. I'll give you a bit of perspective. Gore is running against Bush and we just got done with the Clinton years (and if you care about genocide, Rwanda). His term was basically a wholesale accommodation to the ideologies of the right wing Rs. Gore promised more of the same.

I was ticked and decided not to work at getting out the vote and just sat home and stewed Clinton's lack of leadership - he basically got nothing done.

Compared to Clinton, the Biden administration has pushed through trillions of dollars in infrastructure and key economic sectors spending. The Rs underperformed during the midterms and Biden is working with a remarkably unified party. But... he has Palestine hanging around his neck. So, they are ticked off.

Yes, we got Bush, the forever wars and we buried ourselves in debt. So, yes - it wasn't what I wanted.

But when you are ticked off to the point of apathy - you don't see what could be coming. You are in the here and now.

I can understand apathy when it comes to Bush vs Gore, but less so in Bush’s second term, I have no idea how you guys re-elected that man after the disastrous Iraq war. However George Bush was not a threat to Democracy, he didn’t have loyalists who want to install him as a dictator or a cult ready to commit violence.

You’ve seen the Trump act the first time around and it was absolutely garbage. Second time promises to be worse and if people care about the environment, Palestine, whatever Trump is worse on every metric. And this always happens, Republicans ruin the country and Democrats are expected to fix their mess but get penalized because there’s no magic wand to push the country forward 20 years. Sitting out never sends the message you think it will. What makes sense is voting in large numbers and activism.

I would think you guys would recognize by now that there’s zero to gain from not voting or voting third party. Even a Bush 2.0 is bad enough, never mind Trump and Project 2025. I don’t even understand how it feels good in the here and now considering the alternative.

Actually, I was back out on the streets after the first Bush term. So, there is that. And yes, Trump has shown himself to be worse in many respects.

I guess my comments are more to those first-time voters. Those that already experienced Trump are a bit puzzling to me, there I think it is more ignorance and manipulation.

I read a marketing book that was pretty good that describes this trend as the consistency principle. Basically rather than admitting a mistake, people instead double down.

The anecdote the author uses is about a woman who breaks up with her boyfriend because he's an alcoholic who doesn't have a job and hasn't yet proposed. She ends up getting back together with him after he promises to change. When he doesn't change his behavior at all the woman still remains with him because she is basically justifying her past behavior which is called the consistency principle. The book gives examples of marketing tactics that companies use and I assume politicians also use the same strategy.


Also, politics is viewed a lot through a sports lens - with more emotion rather than facts - Dan Arielly another marketing author talks about the phenomenon where opposing teams fans (Eagles/Giants) view a controversial call in a way that favors there own team.

I wonder if there is a way to make people view things more objectively or if people are just content on staying within their comfort zones and staying in their personal bubbles. Personally I once convinced my friend that the Iraq War was a bad decision by George W (or maybe he eventually came to that conclusion after talking to someone else). I haven't talked him off being a Trump supporter though, although I don't think I've given him much push back and I've avoided my true feelings about what he thinks.

The best thing I can do is keep myself accountable and try to view things more objectively and never assume that I have all the answers.

[Zonkerbl]

Agree that if you are unhappy with Biden and are refusing to vote for that reason, and you are not actively working at the local level to support candidates you *do* agree with, you are a scoundrel and a cad. If there's any institution in the US where it is still possible to "reform from within," it's the Democratic party, particularly at the local level. If you hate how the criminal justice system works here, you have to fix it at the state level anyway. And Democrats control 70% of the cities, where a lot of the crime is. And now with Dobbs, if you don't like Republican forced birth policies, you have to fix it at the state level. If you don't like the way centrist Dems support Israel unconditionally, guess what, there are progressive Dems you can vote for who will actually go on the record supporting Palestine. Hey, vote progressive Dems all the way down the ticket and leave the POTUS vote blank if you want, honestly I would rather you did that than not vote at all.

[dobrojim]

funny comment to a Rubin column in WaPo.

"Women voting Republican is like a chicken voting for Col Sanders"

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?t=N98R3x5XPUT8UzxGrMU8Tw&s=19

[AFM]

I havent been paying attention, whos gonna win the election


100s of pages on Zach Edey's shoe size but none of you fellas got the real info I need

[payitforward]

Agree that if you are unhappy with Biden and are refusing to vote for that reason, and you are not actively working at the local level to support candidates you *do* agree with, you are a scoundrel and a cad. If there's any institution in the US where it is still possible to "reform from within," it's the Democratic party, particularly at the local level. If you hate how the criminal justice system works here, you have to fix it at the state level anyway. And Democrats control 70% of the cities, where a lot of the crime is. And now with Dobbs, if you don't like Republican forced birth policies, you have to fix it at the state level. If you don't like the way centrist Dems support Israel unconditionally, guess what, there are progressive Dems you can vote for who will actually go on the record supporting Palestine. Hey, vote progressive Dems all the way down the ticket and leave the POTUS vote blank if you want, honestly I would rather you did that than not vote at all.

Hear hear!

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

?t=N98R3x5XPUT8UzxGrMU8Tw&s=19

These are the people you want to leave your country in the hands of?

[payitforward]

Donald Trump attempted to overthrow the government of the United States.

Twice. Once on January 6, & then again by attempting to overturn an election.

How anyone can think anything about him other than that he should be put in prison is beyond me.

He also broke a continuous tradition of 250 years by failing to participate in the orderly succession of power. In the entire history of the United States, no President had failed to attend the inauguration of his successor -- no one -- not until Donald Trump.

That was yet another attempt to undercut the significant history of this country. To destroy democracy in order to aggrandize himself. Mo

So far from wanting to "make America great again," Donald Trump wants to sell America to whoever will give him the most money for it.

[doclinkin]

So far from wanting to "make America great again," Donald Trump wants to sell America to whoever will give him the most money for it.

And given his deepening debts, this is even more of a liability than ever. There is a reason why having serious debt can prevent you from obtaining a security clearance. (To say nothing of a felony conviction). Trump is a walking Constitutional crisis. And given how reckless he is with dangerously sensitive information, I'd expect the real Deep State is having dark and serious conversations about what a 2nd Trump presidency would mean. How much information can you feed him, and how much of that can be fictional. I have no doubt he would try to purge all levels of the Intelligence community and auction off the positions to the highest bidders. Russia, essentially.

It would be ironic of course if an emoluments case ever made it to the Supreme Court for Scalia and Thomas to argue.

Dark sense it might not get that far though. Unless he has the Secret Service taste test every Big Mac he ever orders, I dunno.

[pancakes3]

not to nitpick, but in the early years, there were a couple no-shows due to alleged spite but the official positions were either they were not invited by the incoming president, or that travel was too burdensome (John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren, Andrew Johnson). Woodrow Wilson was dealing with a stroke, and Nixon had resigned in disgrace and elected to not insert himself for Ford's succession.

And re: disputing the results, in 1824, Andrew Jackson had declared JQAdams' win over him the result of a "corrupt bargain" but that was partially true because if nobody won the majority of electoral votes (it was the road to 181, not 270 back then), the House gets to pick the president, and there were some backroom deals cut by one of the very candidates that Jackson beat out (Henry Clay) that led to Adams Jr. being picked over Jackson. And that was only possible because this was pre-primaries, and all 4 candidates that got electoral votes were from the same party. So Jackson, who had won more popular votes and electoral votes, but not the majority, wasn't elected. Didn't start an insurrection though.

[dobrojim]

Donald Trump attempted to overthrow the government of the United States.

Twice. Once on January 6, & then again by attempting to overturn an election.

How anyone can think anything about him other than that he should be put in prison is beyond me.

He also broke a continuous tradition of 250 years by failing to participate in the orderly succession of power. In the entire history of the United States, no President had failed to attend the inauguration of his successor -- no one -- not until Donald Trump.

That was yet another attempt to undercut the significant history of this country. To destroy democracy in order to aggrandize himself. Mo

So far from wanting to "make America great again," Donald Trump wants to sell America to whoever will give him the most money for it.

First, welcome to the discussion PIF.

He failed in 2020/2021 to contribute to or participate in a peaceful transfer of power, then publicly and without evidence
made highly corrosive statements about the process. He has clearly stated his intent to do similarly in
the upcoming election. As many have pointed out, this is highly destructive to the fabric of our country
not to mention completely self serving.

Suggesting his motivation in kissing @$$ to the worst dictators in the world is anything
other than greed, an effort to enrich himself, seems naive. If he were applying for a
job in national security, he would never ever be granted a security clearance. That
denial could be based as much on previous acts as it could by his current finances.

The strength of will among those who continue to support him despite what is staring
them straight in the face is the clearest demonstration of tribalism and willful ignorance
that our current politics can provide. The evidence for this can be found in the provable
falsehoods that his defenders will use to justify their support.

[dobrojim]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/06/11/double-haters-false-equivalence/

But when, for example, ABC-Ipsos reported this month that “65% of Americans who view both Trump and Biden unfavorably think the verdict this week was correct, with 67% believing Trump should end his presidential campaign,” can we really call these voters “double haters”?...

...It has become de rigueur to express contempt for both candidates, following the media’s bothsidesism. Trump is a convict, an insurrectionist, a would-be authoritarian — but Biden is old! But when two-thirds of them say Trump should leave the race, the intensity of their dislike for the two candidates obviously is not equal.

(her concluding thoughts)

In short, just when Trump is reeling from the felony conviction and Biden is hammering home messages about democracy from the Normandy beaches, the incorrectly described “double hater” voters are about to get a reminder: Biden isn’t their perfect choice, but the other guy is simply unacceptable. It’s yet another example of why polling from months or even weeks ago was irrelevant — “stuff happens.” The Biden-Harris team knows all too well that if the race is about Trump, then Trump likely will lose.

Stuff happens for sure. Just look up James Comey.

He's just one guy with an opinion but Stuart Stevens is a beacon of hope.
He does not believe tRump can win. Of course lots of people were wrong in
2016 and barely right in 2020.