Post Mortem 2023-24

[JujitsuFlip]

https://youtu.be/Kya0zUe0oXo

Windhorst confirming he was in error about the negotiating date w/Mitchell, it is July 1.

Also my headcanon is now that he reads realgm.

I appreciate his correction but he said the 7th or 8th of July lol i feel comfortable with what you found in the CBA, July 1st.

Timing still sucks tho, Cavs off season gonna be hectic.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://youtu.be/Kya0zUe0oXo

Windhorst confirming he was in error about the negotiating date w/Mitchell, it is July 1.

Also my headcanon is now that he reads realgm.

Thanks for sharing.

Separately i wanted to say, Windy brought up some good points.

The new coach will have to sell the players on his system. If they're not trading Allen then maybe a new coach convinces him to come off the bench. Split the bigs up that way. Mobley and Allen rotating at the 5 is much better than Gafford and Lively.

Also, his point about Garland essentially being in a contract year next season is interesting. I guarantee that is an informed take and probably the avenue Rich Paul takes to try force a trade. Again, new coach may have to convince him to stay and give it a try until at least February.

[JonFromVA]

Okoro's young AND he hasn't gotten development reps on offense. I think he could do more than he does if Detroit or Utah want to give him those reps.

This argument drives me nuts. He's gotten more unearned minutes of any player drafted by Altman besides Sexton. JB loved the kid and with Garland, Strus, and Mitchell missing time this year he got plenty of starters minutes last season and in the playoffs. We've been forced to ask him to take a bigger role in the offense due to injuries and he hasn't been up for it - especially against good teams.

If the opposing team rebounds and/or protects the rim well, his garbage points go away and you're left with his open looks which he's still very hesitant to take. He's played 4 full seasons and that problem exists entirely between his ears. He's either protecting his shooting % for reasons having to do with his contract, or it's a deeply rooted confidence issue that manifests in big moments.

The bottom line is you can't pay a guy more than the MLE if he can't give you even 10ppg as a starter against good teams.

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.

I'm still quite optimistic about Isaac and I think your observations are all valid, but to the discussion, I don't think anyone will want to pay Isaac more than the MLE and while he probably wasn't shooting for $25M/yr like Collin was, I think Isaac hoped to prove himself as a 3&D worth a contract over $15M+/year. I just don't think he did it, and I don't think he'll convince anyone he will do it.

So, I think he's heading for an MLE level contract at best, which is arguably an overpay. Sometimes a GM flush with money will do something out of the ordinary especially on a young player with some upside, but it's that lack of length everyone complains about that will likely keep those GM's at bay or simply lack of money as jbk argues.

The Cavs may very well match at that point, give or take how the decide to manage the luxury tax this year.

[jbk1234]

https://youtu.be/Kya0zUe0oXo

Windhorst confirming he was in error about the negotiating date w/Mitchell, it is July 1.

Also my headcanon is now that he reads realgm.

Thanks for sharing.

Separately i wanted to say, Windy brought up some good points.

The new coach will have to sell the players on his system. If they're not trading Allen then maybe a new coach convinces him to come off the bench. Split the bigs up that way. Mobley and Allen rotating at the 5 is much better than Gafford and Lively.

Also, his point about Garland essentially being in a contract year next season is interesting. I guarantee that is an informed take and probably the avenue Rich Paul takes to try force a trade. Again, new coach may have to convince him to stay and give it a try until at least February.

Next year being a contract year seems like a real stretch to me. After next season, he'll still have 3 full seasons under contract, and while I'd agree he'll likely benefit from being the primary ball handler again, that needs to be balanced against the reality that when he's out there without another ball handler, he gets blitzed by opposing defenses. Also, his ability to stay healthy is going to be a factor regardless of where he's playing. No team is going to feel pressured to give him an extension when he's got three full seasons still left on his current deal.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://youtu.be/Kya0zUe0oXo

Windhorst confirming he was in error about the negotiating date w/Mitchell, it is July 1.

Also my headcanon is now that he reads realgm.

Thanks for sharing.

Separately i wanted to say, Windy brought up some good points.

The new coach will have to sell the players on his system. If they're not trading Allen then maybe a new coach convinces him to come off the bench. Split the bigs up that way. Mobley and Allen rotating at the 5 is much better than Gafford and Lively.

Also, his point about Garland essentially being in a contract year next season is interesting. I guarantee that is an informed take and probably the avenue Rich Paul takes to try force a trade. Again, new coach may have to convince him to stay and give it a try until at least February.

Next year being a contract year seems like a real stretch to me. After next season, he'll still have 3 full seasons under contract, and while I'd agree he'll likely benefit from being the primary ball handler again, that needs to be balanced against the reality that when he's out there without another ball handler, he gets blitzed by opposing defenses. Also, his ability to stay healthy is going to be a factor regardless of where he's playing. No team is going to feel pressured to give him an extension when he's got three full seasons still left on his current deal.

I 100% agree with ya i just thought it was an interesting point. It was nothing that was even on my radar.

I doubt he can ever make All-NBA in a back court with Mitchell but I'm with ya, idk what team he could even achieve that on.

We'll see, like he said a lot can change between now and July 6th, when Mitchell can actually put pen to paper.

[JujitsuFlip]

This argument drives me nuts. He's gotten more unearned minutes of any player drafted by Altman besides Sexton. JB loved the kid and with Garland, Strus, and Mitchell missing time this year he got plenty of starters minutes last season and in the playoffs. We've been forced to ask him to take a bigger role in the offense due to injuries and he hasn't been up for it - especially against good teams.

If the opposing team rebounds and/or protects the rim well, his garbage points go away and you're left with his open looks which he's still very hesitant to take. He's played 4 full seasons and that problem exists entirely between his ears. He's either protecting his shooting % for reasons having to do with his contract, or it's a deeply rooted confidence issue that manifests in big moments.

The bottom line is you can't pay a guy more than the MLE if he can't give you even 10ppg as a starter against good teams.

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.

I'm still quite optimistic about Isaac and I think your observations are all valid, but to the discussion, I don't think anyone will want to pay Isaac more than the MLE and while he probably wasn't shooting for $25M/yr like Collin was, I think Isaac hoped to prove himself as a 3&D worth a contract over $15M+/year. I just don't think he did it, and I don't think he'll convince anyone he will do it.

So, I think he's heading for an MLE level contract at best, which is arguably an overpay. Sometimes a GM flush with money will do something out of the ordinary especially on a young player with some upside, but it's that lack of length everyone complains about that will likely keep those GM's at bay or simply lack of money as jbk argues.

The Cavs may very well match at that point, give or take how the decide to manage the luxury tax this year.

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

[jbk1234]

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.

I'm still quite optimistic about Isaac and I think your observations are all valid, but to the discussion, I don't think anyone will want to pay Isaac more than the MLE and while he probably wasn't shooting for $25M/yr like Collin was, I think Isaac hoped to prove himself as a 3&D worth a contract over $15M+/year. I just don't think he did it, and I don't think he'll convince anyone he will do it.

So, I think he's heading for an MLE level contract at best, which is arguably an overpay. Sometimes a GM flush with money will do something out of the ordinary especially on a young player with some upside, but it's that lack of length everyone complains about that will likely keep those GM's at bay or simply lack of money as jbk argues.

The Cavs may very well match at that point, give or take how the decide to manage the luxury tax this year.

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

Yeah, no. You attach whatever seconds it takes to dump Niang on a non-playoff team. You don't start the repeater tax a year before Mobley comes off his rookie deal just because.

[toooskies]

I'm still quite optimistic about Isaac and I think your observations are all valid, but to the discussion, I don't think anyone will want to pay Isaac more than the MLE and while he probably wasn't shooting for $25M/yr like Collin was, I think Isaac hoped to prove himself as a 3&D worth a contract over $15M+/year. I just don't think he did it, and I don't think he'll convince anyone he will do it.

So, I think he's heading for an MLE level contract at best, which is arguably an overpay. Sometimes a GM flush with money will do something out of the ordinary especially on a young player with some upside, but it's that lack of length everyone complains about that will likely keep those GM's at bay or simply lack of money as jbk argues.

The Cavs may very well match at that point, give or take how the decide to manage the luxury tax this year.

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

Yeah, no. You attach whatever seconds it takes to dump Niang on a non-playoff team. You don't start the repeater tax a year before Mobley comes off his rookie deal just because.

I'm not sure Mitchell will be enthused about continuing to avoid the tax, and if you know you're heading into the tax you can't afford to lose rotation players.

Although if you want to offload Niang like this, you can wait to do this until the trade deadline. You might even find a team that has some interest in him.

But I'd rather use Niang as a trade piece like we did with Cedi to bring in a slightly-above-MLE guy.

[JonFromVA]

Thanks for sharing.

Separately i wanted to say, Windy brought up some good points.

The new coach will have to sell the players on his system. If they're not trading Allen then maybe a new coach convinces him to come off the bench. Split the bigs up that way. Mobley and Allen rotating at the 5 is much better than Gafford and Lively.

Also, his point about Garland essentially being in a contract year next season is interesting. I guarantee that is an informed take and probably the avenue Rich Paul takes to try force a trade. Again, new coach may have to convince him to stay and give it a try until at least February.

Next year being a contract year seems like a real stretch to me. After next season, he'll still have 3 full seasons under contract, and while I'd agree he'll likely benefit from being the primary ball handler again, that needs to be balanced against the reality that when he's out there without another ball handler, he gets blitzed by opposing defenses. Also, his ability to stay healthy is going to be a factor regardless of where he's playing. No team is going to feel pressured to give him an extension when he's got three full seasons still left on his current deal.

I 100% agree with ya i just thought it was an interesting point. It was nothing that was even on my radar.

I doubt he can ever make All-NBA in a back court with Mitchell but I'm with ya, idk what team he could even achieve that on.

We'll see, like he said a lot can change between now and July 6th, when Mitchell can actually put pen to paper.

I just don't want to talk about what Garland might do if healthy, just want to see it. geez

[JonFromVA]

Well, 10.8 points as a starter this year. Okoro has earned minutes but when everyone is healthy he doesn't get touches. If Dean Wade's advanced stats this year tells you anything it's that you don't need to score points to deserve minutes. All Okoro's done the past three years in various spots in the rotation is deliver positive +/- and on/off stats. Those aren't "unearned" minutes.

Okoro was once again high on the team's list of points per touch, scoring .306 PPT, trailing only Mitchell, Allen, Merrill, and Morris. Other role playing wings like Niang (.258), Strus (.221), and Wade (.205) were significantly worse. Okoro led them by more than he trailed Mitchell for the team lead. In the playoffs, Okoro was also 5th on the team in points per touch (.275), with Mobley passing him by .005 and Merrill falling behind.

The issue is that Okoro got 30 touches per game in the regular season and 20 in the postseason. That's not enough to score more than 10 points per game. You can blame Okoro himself for not getting more touches by being more active in the offense, but generally the results when he touches the ball are positive for the team.

I disagree that we need our best perimeter defender to score more, though, when you've got Mitchell, Garland, Mobley, and Allen all asking for 20+% usage, LeVert somehow taking 23% usage, Strus and Merrill and Niang getting plays run for them off the bench, etc.

You see hesitancy to take shots and I see Okoro not taking bad shots. He doesn't take shots when the pass to him isn't on-target. He doesn't take shots when he's being closed out on. He generally makes pretty good passes. All his shots are at the rim or 3s. These are all clear analytics-driven good plays. Most players shoot pretty poorly on 3s that aren't wide open or are off-balance. Most players don't hit a high percentage of 2s. Most 5th options don't have AST/TO ratios above 2. (Although that dropped a bit in the playoffs, it was still above 1.)

Max Strus is a better shooter than Okoro at every 3-point shot they both take. Okoro shot a much better percentage because he passes up shooting shots that he'd typically miss. Whether that's "hesitation" or just a good shot selection is up to the observer.

This is all consistent with the way JBB has coached the team, though-- play good fundamental basketball, don't make mistakes, make the right play, take what the defense gives you. Which to me indicates that Okoro will both a) listen to what his coaching is telling him, and b) may have been limited by that coaching.

I'm still quite optimistic about Isaac and I think your observations are all valid, but to the discussion, I don't think anyone will want to pay Isaac more than the MLE and while he probably wasn't shooting for $25M/yr like Collin was, I think Isaac hoped to prove himself as a 3&D worth a contract over $15M+/year. I just don't think he did it, and I don't think he'll convince anyone he will do it.

So, I think he's heading for an MLE level contract at best, which is arguably an overpay. Sometimes a GM flush with money will do something out of the ordinary especially on a young player with some upside, but it's that lack of length everyone complains about that will likely keep those GM's at bay or simply lack of money as jbk argues.

The Cavs may very well match at that point, give or take how the decide to manage the luxury tax this year.

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

I'm not sure the Cavs will start paying luxury tax just to keep the team together. Sure, it would help to cement the group, but sort of putting the horse before the cart I imagine as far as Dan is concerned.

Self-delusion is easy to achieve, but I suspect it would take something extra to happen to convince the FO that this team as constructed could make a run for a championship.

If they pull off a significant trade and feel Isaac fills an important roster hole, something like that could trigger them spending in to the tax. otoh, there's a decent chance we end up with Isaac on a cheap contract - depending how comfortable he is playing on the QO.

[jbk1234]

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

Yeah, no. You attach whatever seconds it takes to dump Niang on a non-playoff team. You don't start the repeater tax a year before Mobley comes off his rookie deal just because.

I'm not sure Mitchell will be enthused about continuing to avoid the tax, and if you know you're heading into the tax you can't afford to lose rotation players.

Although if you want to offload Niang like this, you can wait to do this until the trade deadline. You might even find a team that has some interest in him.

But I'd rather use Niang as a trade piece like we did with Cedi to bring in a slightly-above-MLE guy.

Once Mobley's extension kicks in, or Mitchell's for that matter, you're a tax team for the foreseeable future. You're in the repeater tax after three seasons in the tax. Also, under the new CBA, once the season starts, if you're over the tax line, you're a tax team. There's no more sneaking under at the deadline.

Now if we can attach No. 20 to Niang and turn him into DFS, sure. Go into the tax. But, paying the tax for whatever delta might exist between Niang and a guy like Bertans on a league minimum deal, that's just I'll advised.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm still quite optimistic about Isaac and I think your observations are all valid, but to the discussion, I don't think anyone will want to pay Isaac more than the MLE and while he probably wasn't shooting for $25M/yr like Collin was, I think Isaac hoped to prove himself as a 3&D worth a contract over $15M+/year. I just don't think he did it, and I don't think he'll convince anyone he will do it.

So, I think he's heading for an MLE level contract at best, which is arguably an overpay. Sometimes a GM flush with money will do something out of the ordinary especially on a young player with some upside, but it's that lack of length everyone complains about that will likely keep those GM's at bay or simply lack of money as jbk argues.

The Cavs may very well match at that point, give or take how the decide to manage the luxury tax this year.

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

I'm not sure the Cavs will start paying luxury tax just to keep the team together. Sure, it would help to cement the group, but sort of putting the horse before the cart I imagine as far as Dan is concerned.

Self-delusion is easy to achieve, but I suspect it would take something extra to happen to convince the FO that this team as constructed could make a run for a championship.

If they pull off a significant trade and feel Isaac fills an important roster hole, something like that could trigger them spending in to the tax. otoh, there's a decent chance we end up with Isaac on a cheap contract - depending how comfortable he is playing on the QO.

I just think the mindset has to be all in.

Cavs fired jb for a team to go deeper than round 2.

Koby doesn't wanna break up the core.

There's no more biding time.

They are at minimum shooting to be a final 4 team.

If this core can't compete for a championship then break them up now and get pieces who fit and can. Otherwise, wth are we doing?

[JonFromVA]

If Mitchell extends and Garland + Allen stay put, i say finally go into the tax. There will be no better time than the present.

I'm not sure the Cavs will start paying luxury tax just to keep the team together. Sure, it would help to cement the group, but sort of putting the horse before the cart I imagine as far as Dan is concerned.

Self-delusion is easy to achieve, but I suspect it would take something extra to happen to convince the FO that this team as constructed could make a run for a championship.

If they pull off a significant trade and feel Isaac fills an important roster hole, something like that could trigger them spending in to the tax. otoh, there's a decent chance we end up with Isaac on a cheap contract - depending how comfortable he is playing on the QO.

I just think the mindset has to be all in.

Cavs fired jb for a team to go deeper than round 2.

Koby doesn't wanna break up the core.

There's no more biding time.

They are at minimum shooting to be a final 4 team.

If this core can't compete for a championship then break them up now and get pieces who fit and can. Otherwise, wth are we doing?

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm not sure the Cavs will start paying luxury tax just to keep the team together. Sure, it would help to cement the group, but sort of putting the horse before the cart I imagine as far as Dan is concerned.

Self-delusion is easy to achieve, but I suspect it would take something extra to happen to convince the FO that this team as constructed could make a run for a championship.

If they pull off a significant trade and feel Isaac fills an important roster hole, something like that could trigger them spending in to the tax. otoh, there's a decent chance we end up with Isaac on a cheap contract - depending how comfortable he is playing on the QO.

I just think the mindset has to be all in.

Cavs fired jb for a team to go deeper than round 2.

Koby doesn't wanna break up the core.

There's no more biding time.

They are at minimum shooting to be a final 4 team.

If this core can't compete for a championship then break them up now and get pieces who fit and can. Otherwise, wth are we doing?

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

[JonFromVA]

I just think the mindset has to be all in.

Cavs fired jb for a team to go deeper than round 2.

Koby doesn't wanna break up the core.

There's no more biding time.

They are at minimum shooting to be a final 4 team.

If this core can't compete for a championship then break them up now and get pieces who fit and can. Otherwise, wth are we doing?

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten the Cavs had to lose a game on purpose just to barely get out of the first round.

So, even if the Cavs shuffle their core 4, the new players and new coach still need to prove themselves. If the right trade required them to go in to the tax, they'd have to consider it; but do you really think overpaying Isaac Okoro should be the trigger?

That is what we're talking about here.

[toooskies]

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten the Cavs had to lose a game on purpose just to barely get out of the first round.

So, even if the Cavs shuffle their core 4, the new players and new coach still need to prove themselves. If the right trade required them to go in to the tax, they'd have to consider it; but do you really think overpaying Isaac Okoro should be the trigger?

That is what we're talking about here.

I disagree with the premise that the Cavs lost on purpose, that they needed to lose on purpose to make it out of the first round, and that Okoro is the right victim here when you could probably offload Niang trivially.

[jbk1234]

I just think the mindset has to be all in.

Cavs fired jb for a team to go deeper than round 2.

Koby doesn't wanna break up the core.

There's no more biding time.

They are at minimum shooting to be a final 4 team.

If this core can't compete for a championship then break them up now and get pieces who fit and can. Otherwise, wth are we doing?

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

Jtbc, if Allen and Mitchell had managed to stay healthy, do you have the chances that we get by the Celtics at zero? I sure don't. I think there's an even money chance we take that series and are in the Finals right now. It's hardly delusional to hope we're healthier next run.

[JujitsuFlip]

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

I'm sure you haven't forgotten the Cavs had to lose a game on purpose just to barely get out of the first round.

So, even if the Cavs shuffle their core 4, the new players and new coach still need to prove themselves. If the right trade required them to go in to the tax, they'd have to consider it; but do you really think overpaying Isaac Okoro should be the trigger?

That is what we're talking about here.

Jon, we're on the same side. I do not believe this core is a title contender either.

But I'm saying the guy who matters or at least 1 of the 2 guys who matter, believes this team's floor is a top 4 team in the NBA.

A team aiming for the top 4 as their floor has to be considered a title contender weather it is a fallacy or not.

With that perspective in mind then i do not believe the Cavs should fear the tax line like they did last season. If they're aspiring to be top 4 in the NBA, spend like a top 4 in the NBA team.

[JujitsuFlip]

Well, if you want to know what a smartly managed team would do, ask yourself what would the Guardians do?

They'd keep developing the team, building continuity, adding talent, taking their lumps, making trades and then if and when things are obviously clicking and they think they may have a chance to make a deep run they go all in (or at least as much as Dolan can afford).

I mean be honest. While you feel the Cavs made an all-in move when they traded for Mitchell, what would encourage you to think they are ready to contend next year? We can hope for good health, that the new coach comes in and turns things quickly around or Koby makes a flurry of wildly successful trades, but let's see?

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

Jtbc, if Allen and Mitchell had managed to stay healthy, do you have the chances that we get by the Celtics at zero? I sure don't. I think there's an even money chance we take that series and are in the Finals right now. It's hardly delusional to hope we're healthier next run.

If you're of that belief that the Cavs were 2 or 3 injuries away from being a top 2 team this season, how are you arguing against going into the tax this upcoming season?

Your mindset should be to extend Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen.

Your mindset should be to sign and trade Okoro and take back whatever contract value that fetches.

Your mindset should be to spend the entire MLE this summer, something the Cavs rarely do.

Your mindset should be to hope a new coach can fix Niang because 2nds alone aren't gonna dump him, so be prepared to be paying your 11th guy $8.5 million.

Your mindset should not only be to retain #20 but actually move up in the draft if there's a guy there they like.

Your mindset should be to match any offer sheet Bates gets.

Like you can't be a top 2 team (your opinion) or a top 4 team (Koby's opinion) and be trying to dodge the tax. Either you actually are a contender or you're a pretender. If these opinions are to be believed, then ya spend the money to secure the Larry O'Brien.

[jbk1234]

I don't think it, that 100% was an all in move.

I think they should break up the core 4, as soon as this month.

But Koby disagrees. So if he's not breaking up the core, then what you described is be a treadmill team until it is clear and obvious you're not.

If you're not breaking up the core 4 and not making trades, what is gonna tip this core to contending?

The aim is already to go to the ECF as a minimum.

I think our PoBo is misguided but his actions show that winning is the only logical next step. They can't bide anymore time once they extend Mitchell, Mobley, and potetinally Allen. Heck, they may even match an offer sheet for Okoro.

Jtbc, if Allen and Mitchell had managed to stay healthy, do you have the chances that we get by the Celtics at zero? I sure don't. I think there's an even money chance we take that series and are in the Finals right now. It's hardly delusional to hope we're healthier next run.

If you're of that belief that the Cavs were 2 or 3 injuries away from being a top 2 team this season, how are you arguing against going into the tax this upcoming season?

Your mindset should be to extend Mitchell, Mobley, and Allen.

Your mindset should be to sign and trade Okoro and take back whatever contract value that fetches.

Your mindset should be to spend the entire MLE this summer, something the Cavs rarely do.

Your mindset should be to hope a new coach can fix Niang because 2nds alone aren't gonna dump him, so be prepared to be paying your 11th guy $8.5 million.

Your mindset should not only be to retain #20 but actually move up in the draft if there's a guy there they like.

Your mindset should be to match any offer sheet Bates gets.

Like you can't be a top 2 team (your opinion) or a top 4 team (Koby's opinion) and be trying to dodge the tax. Either you actually are a contender or you're a pretender. If these opinions are to be believed, then ya spend the money to secure the Larry O'Brien.

I have no objection to going into the tax for the right player. I even gave an example of a trade I'd make that would do that. That said, the first and second aprons come with real teeth now before even worrying about the repeater tax. You need to be smart and opportunistic when it comes to adding salary once your over the cap. Otherwise, you end in a situation like the Warriors, Bucks, Denver, Clippers, Suns, etc. with locked rosters because its practically impossible to execute a trade.

If there's a good S&T option for Okoro, I'm all for it, but if his RFA market likely tops out at just over the MLE, what do you think the other team is giving up for him? Assuming the Cavs can use the full MLE, which you can't do if you're over the tax, who are you using it on? I don't want another Niang signing where we're just looking to dump him a year later because he can't stay on the floor during the playoffs.