Do you value peak (Michael Jordan) or longevity (LeBron James) in the GOAT debate?

Drygon · Post #1 » by **Drygon** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:19 pm

Michael Jordan and LeBron James are undisputed top 2 players in NBA history and it's not even close.

MJ played only 11 full seasons in Chicago Bulls... But Peak MJ is easily by far & away the most dominant player in NBA history.

- After starting 0-3 in 90/91 season, MJ never again lost 3 straight games during a stretch of 629 reg season & playoff games.
- MJ had a season of winning DPOY and averaging 35 PPG on great efficency
- Highest PPG average in NBA history, including 10 scoring titles
- Won a 3-peat, then took 1.5 year long retirement in his prime. MJ won a second 3-peat in 3 full seasons after making comeback

Obviously, Peak LeBron didn't reach the same heights as Peak MJ. But LeBron's longevtity is absolutely unprecedented in NBA history

- LeBron is a top 10 player despite being the oldest player in NBA currently as he will turn 40 in December this year
- LeBron has played most minutes ever in reg season & playoffs
- LeBron is NBA's all-time leading scorer for most points

As the title says, do you value peak or longevity in GOAT debate?

Stan · Post #2 » by **Stan** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:23 pm

If there was one thing this forum needed, it was a Jordan/LeBron GOAT thread. Thanks OP.

Post #3 » by **Texas Chuck** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:24 pm

This is a dumb topic for me to wonder into, but Lebron has peak arguments too. So no that's not remotely obvious.

and yes Lebron has had the GOAT career. No disrespect to Mr Russell of course.

lessthanjake · Post #4 » by **lessthanjake** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:26 pm

I’m going to answer this more abstractly than talking about Jordan and LeBron specifically, since that’s a very well-trodden discussion. Reasonable minds can differ on this, but to me the value I put on longevity kind of follows something akin to a logarithmic scale. Which is to say that there’s diminishing marginal value on longevity as longevity increases, but additional longevity always matters at least a little bit. And then longevity is just one factor among others that I use to evaluate players’ greatness—including how good a player was in their peak years, how much they achieved, etc. Ultimately, this means that sometimes a player having better longevity tips the balance between two players, and sometimes it doesn’t. And it also means that it’s more likely to tip the balance if we’re comparing to a player that genuinely has short longevity. But even with two players at higher longevity, it can tip the balance if I think everything else is really close and I’m in need of a tiebreaker, since it still matters at least somewhat.

Hair Jordan · Post #5 » by **Hair Jordan** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:29 pm

The Goat career belongs to Kareem. Dude won 3 NCAA titles and 3 Final Four Most Outstanding Player awards. Would have been 4/4 if freshmen were allowed to play varsity back then. He won 6 MVP’s (most ever) and 6 titles in the NBA including FMVP awards 14 years apart (record). Was the all time leading scorer despite playing four years in college.

Post #6 » by **HMFFL** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:33 pm

Lebron can play until he's 50 and extend his longevity longer if he plays 40 games per season or less. Some people will continue to praise him, while he makes $100m per season, and cherry picks games.

Games Played:
18-19: 55
19-20: 67
20-21: 45
21-22: 56
22-23: 55
23-24: 71

Keep playing 70 games per season and I will respect his longevity more.

The Explorer · Post #7 » by **The Explorer** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:39 pm

Drygon wrote:Michael Jordan and LeBron James are undisputed top 2 players in NBA history and it's not even close.

MJ played only 11 full seasons in Chicago Bulls... But Peak MJ is easily by far & away the most dominant player in NBA history.

- After starting 0-3 in 90/91 season, MJ never again lost 3 straight games during a stretch of 629 reg season & playoff games.
- MJ had a season of winning DPOY and averaging 35 PPG on great efficency
- Highest PPG average in NBA history, including 10 scoring titles
- Won a 3-peat, then took 1.5 year long retirement in his prime. MJ won a second 3-peat in 3 full seasons after making comeback

Obviously, Peak LeBron didn't reach the same heights as Peak MJ. But LeBron's longevtity is absolutely unprecedented in NBA history

- LeBron is a top 10 player despite being the oldest player in NBA currently as he will turn 40 in December this year
- LeBron has played most minutes ever in reg season & playoffs
- LeBron is NBA's all-time leading scorer for most points

As the title says, do you value peak or longevity in GOAT debate?

How is he a top 10 player currently? He made All-NBA 3rd team, not 2nd team. And only plays on 1 side of the court, barely plays defense.

FreeBird23 · Post #8 » by **FreeBird23** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:40 pm

Drygon wrote:Michael Jordan and LeBron James are undisputed top 2 players in NBA history and it's not even close.

No.
MJ for sure, Lebron not so much

Btw, very original thread

PassMeTheBall · Post #9 » by **PassMeTheBall** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:48 pm

Lebron is an all time great but it gets annoying with saying it's only between MJ & Lebron. There's a handful of others that get disrespected to prop up one guy due to recency bias.

Maxthirty · Post #10 » by **Maxthirty** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:48 pm

LeBron has the greatest and longest peak of any basketball player of all time.

That being said, if you think MJ is the GOAT that’s totally fine. If you think Kareem is the GOAT that’s totally fine.

The amount of time wasted on this forum denigrating other players really bums me out.

Jcity08 · Post #11 » by **Jcity08** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:53 pm

I'm going to consult with my opinions from the last 500 Jordan vs LeBron threads and get back to you.

In all seriousness though, I prefer Jordans career over Lebrons plain an simple, won't disparage either player, simply Jordans my GOAT.

KembaWalker · Post #12 » by **KembaWalker** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:57 pm

neither particularly. greatness isn’t something you capture in a formula, nor do you achieve it by ticking boxes on a to-do list

52-12-7 · Post #13 » by **52-12-7** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:04 pm

I think Lebron's longevity will be matched easier considering how advanced sports medicine is getting. Also, considering load management, lax rules resulting in less physicality, and players in general taking better care of their bodies (ie no smoking, drinking etc), I could see entire generation of players lasting way longer than the past. Thus, I value peak and dominance over longevity.

Iwasawitness · Post #14 » by **Iwasawitness** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:06 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:This is a dumb topic for me to wonder into, but Lebron has peak arguments too. So no that's not remotely obvious.

and yes Lebron has had the GOAT career. No disrespect to Mr Russell of course.

I think Jordan has had the GOAT career if we’re being honest.

PassMeTheBall · Post #15 » by **PassMeTheBall** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:07 pm

Jcity08 wrote:I'm going to consult with my opinions from the last 500 Jordan vs LeBron threads and get back to you.

In all seriousness though, I prefer Jordans career over Lebrons plain an simple, won't disparage either player, simply Jordans my GOAT.

Yeah, it's as simple as that. Just ask anyone the question of whether they'd rather have Jordan's career or Lebron's the answer is fairly simple. If you choose Lebron you're saying you'd rather have 2 less rings, 2 less Finals MVPs, 1 less MVP, no 3-peats to 2, no defensive player of the year award, less All-Defensive First Teams made, 9 less scoring titles, no steals titles to 3. And all of that done in a span of 13 seasons compared to playing 21 years with way less career accolades. Lebron just has the longevity stat totals, more All-Star & All-NBA teams made & 1 assists title.

LukaTheGOAT · Post #16 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:07 pm

Well both favor Lebron, so I disagree with the foundation of the question.

Still, there is enough evidence that Lebron's career value would have surpassed Jordan's by now probably, even I'd you did consider Jordan's peak a tier up from him.

toodarkmark · Post #17 » by **toodarkmark** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:24 pm

They’re co-GOATs. Both GOATs in their own way.

JustBuzzin · Post #18 » by **JustBuzzin** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:28 pm

Stan wrote:If there was one thing this forum needed, it was a Jordan/LeBron GOAT thread. Thanks OP.

Nobody shakes the board like King James. 8-)

hugepatsfan · Post #19 » by **hugepatsfan** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:39 pm

When I'm ranking guys careers, longevity is more of a pass-fail grade for me. I'll use Shaq and Duncan as an example. Duncan had more longevity, but Shaq had enough for me to check the box for him. And since his peak is better I'd rank him above Duncan all time.

Maxthirty · Post #20 » by **Maxthirty** » Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:50 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:When I'm ranking guys careers, longevity is more of a pass-fail grade for me. I'll use Shaq and Duncan as an example. Duncan had more longevity, but Shaq had enough for me to check the box for him. And since his peak is better I'd rank him above Duncan all time.

That pass-fail statement doesn’t really make sense.

Your example doesn’t make much sense either. Duncan was better than Shaq. This is pretty much the consensus among hoop fans.