Alternate Timelines: Which team/player receives the biggest legacy boost?

[dreamshake34]

Imagine that this is the way the NBA unfolded (see events below). Which team/player(s) of the 4 options listed below receives the biggest legacy boost?

1. 2018 Rockets - Chris Paul never has the hamstring injury. Rockets win game 7 of the WCF series against the Warriors. Rockets advance and defeat the Cavaliers in the Finals 5 or 6 games.

2. 2007 Suns - Hip check Horry event never happens. Suns win G5, Spurs win G6, and then Suns squeak out a close one in G7 to win. Suns advance to WCF defeat the Jazz and defeat Cavs in the Finals.

3. 2002 Kings - Kings overcome the “rigged” conspiracy theory allegations and win in either G6 or a close one in G7 over the Lakers in the WCF. They defeat the Nets in the Finals in 4-5 games.

4. 1998 Pacers - Reggie nails a clutch 3 pointer to sink the Bulls in G7 to advance to the Finals. Pacers take down the Jazz in 6-7 games to win the Finals.

[Colbinii]

2018 Rockets since its two Top 20 Talents in Harden and CP3 who have still never gotten "over the hump". They go down as an ATG team [Aren't they already one of the best 20 teams ever?].

Nash and Miller are already highly respected players in most circles.

Kings never had a player at the caliber of Nash/Miller/CP3/Harden in terms of ATG, Historically basketball discussions.

[dreamshake34]

2018 Rockets since its two Top 20 Talents in Harden and CP3 who have still never gotten "over the hump". They go down as an ATG team [Aren't they already one of the best 20 teams ever?].

Nash and Miller are already highly respected players in most circles.

Kings never had a player at the caliber of Nash/Miller/CP3/Harden in terms of ATG, Historically basketball discussions.

I think this could be used as an argument as to why they should be the pick. Chris Webber was a 5x All-star and 5x All-NBA guy. It would be super interesting to see how fondly he would be remembered and the narrative about him in historical discussions if you were to add a ring and a FMVP to that mix.

I like your reasoning though. My pick would probably be between the Rockets or Kings.

[Owly]

2018 Rockets since its two Top 20 Talents in Harden and CP3 who have still never gotten "over the hump". They go down as an ATG team [Aren't they already one of the best 20 teams ever?].

Nash and Miller are already highly respected players in most circles.

Kings never had a player at the caliber of Nash/Miller/CP3/Harden in terms of ATG, Historically basketball discussions.

I think this could be used as an argument as to why they should be the pick. Chris Webber was a 5x All-star and 5x All-NBA guy. It would be super interesting to see how fondly he would be remembered and the narrative about him in historical discussions if you were to add a ring and a FMVP to that mix.

I like your reasoning though. My pick would probably be between the Rockets or Kings.

IIRC, significant mainstream voices like Webber over Miller as it is. I recall a panel of players with both on and Webber advocating for himself for (for say top 50, or an extension to the 50 list or similar) too, and Miller didn't for himself and maybe that's coloring things too much but ... yeah ...


Fwiw, Miller/Pacers ... as above Miller might be lowest mainstream ... and they have to/do now win 2 additional tough series including one that's ... got a lot of narrative baggage (now '95 doesn't count and before the three-peats doesn't matter for "6 of 6" types so maybe after the repeat earlier round defeat doesn't matter [to be clear this is against the 6/6 argument - not saying Bulls "should" have won other years]...).

You could argue the two tough series for Houston if you like and buy in to playoff Cavs as a lot better than their RS selves - and GSW are probably actually a tougher proposition (although Iggy wasn't there for the full series so you might not get full credit unless you say we're changing that too and they still win) than the '98 Bulls.

[trex_8063]

Haven't voted, but I think the '18 Rockets get the least boost. I mean, at least here on this forum everyone seems to understand (even without the title) that that was a tremendous team [in an all-time sense].


And the '98 Pacers would not beat the '98 Jazz, imo (hell, the '98 Bulls maybe don't beat them if not for two blown shotclock calls in game 6 [both in Chicago's favour]).

[AEnigma]

I think the Suns. Pacers and Kings would be treated more like the 2004 Pistons. It helps Reggie and Webber of course but there is still a limit to how seriously they can be taken. But the Suns’ title would vindicate Nash’s MVPs, which continue to decline in public consciousness (thanks to substantial rewriting), and as Doc is fond of pointing out their win probably speeds up league development.

Rockets have a good argument but they already have a strong reputation as one of the best non-title teams, and while Harden is not liked, he has a better reputation than Nash in most current circles.

[parsnips33]

Haven't voted, but I think the '18 Rockets get the least boost. I mean, at least here on this forum everyone seems to understand (even without the title) that that was a tremendous team [in an all-time sense].


And the '98 Pacers would not beat the '98 Jazz, imo (hell, the '98 Bulls maybe don't beat them if not for two blown shotclock calls in game 6 [both in Chicago's favour]).

Rockets reputation actually goes down on this forum if they win. You no longer get to be smarter than the average fan for championing them

Obviously, outside of this forum is a whole different question

[MiamiBulls]

The biggest beneficiary of these alternate timelines within the mainstream would undoubtedly be Chris Webber. Webber was looked at as an MVP level player in his peak years in terms of media coverage even if he wasn't actually an MVP level guy.

In '01 he finished 4th in MVP Voting & selected 1st Team All NBA. What would work in his favor within the mainstream was the fact that he was a super gaudy counting stats guy who filled up the stat sheet; a 25-ish PPG, 10-ish REBS, 5-ish APG along with 3 STOCKS per gm.

He 'looks' like someone who's better than Dirk & if he won he would likely be placed in Dirk & Barkley conversations within the mainstream or at least closer to them in all-time PF conversations as opposed to a large volume of the general basketball viewing public questioning why & how a "talented, but inconsequential" player made the Hall of Fame.

[SilentA]

Tough call between Rockets and Pacers, but voted Pacers because Miller is the lone superstar of that team and played the same position as MJ. Ending the threepeat and erasing the silly "6-0" narrative I think really elevates him as a mainstream all timer, Indiana would have its first ring (which people would attribute to Miller), and we'd see ripple effects on GOAT discussions.

Tough call though.

[migya]

Jordan takes a big loss if Reggie wins and Reggie would have been known as the star that took down the greatest. He'd probably be seen as a top forty player to many.

[dygaction]

2007 Suns, it would have been the same time line of Jokic - 2x MVP followed by a Finals MVP, validate run-gun style and makes Nash the best offensive player ever.

[rand]

2018 Rockets. They would have beaten the 2nd best team of All-Time and then a Finals team led by near peak LeBron. The Rockets themselves could have gone down as the 2nd best team of All-Time behind only the 2017 Warriors (and people could debate then whether or not the 2018 Rockets would have beaten those Warriors). Harden and CP3 would both have made huge jumps on the GOAT list.

Next would have been the Suns because winning a title in 2007 would have validated both of Nash's MVPs as well as his 2005 and 2010 Suns teams as legit championship caliber squads which just probabilistically failed to win rings they had legit chances of winning (and reinforced the belief that the 2006 Suns would have won had Amare been healthy). Amare and Marion too would have become made men by that ring and would both have made the HOF. But beating the 2007 Spurs after the Spurs failed to win the title in 2006 and wouldn't win again for 7 more years would not have been viewed as quite the achievement as beating the 2018 Warriors.

Either the 2018 Rockets or the 2007 Suns titles would have additionally validated D'Antoni as one of the greatest basketball coaches of all-time.

Obviously it would have been huge for the 2002 Kings and 1998 Pacers too but I don't think the needle movements within those teams breaks as many thresholds as the 2018 Rockets and 2007 Suns. Webber and Reggie made the HOF anyway (and didn't have suspect MVPs to validate like Nash or a reputation as a playoff choker to erase like Harden) and I don't think there's a player on either of those teams who didn't make the HOF but would have had those teams won rings. Maybe Rik Smits but that's debatable.

The Pacers' win might have gotten marginally devalued by a hindsight fueled understanding that the 1998 Bulls represented that dynasty on its last legs. Detractors might have said Reggie and the Pacers were just lucky to have been the ones on site when the Bulls finally ran out of gas. The Kings boost may not be quite as large otherwise because many non-Lakers fans believe SAC was deliberately cheated by the refs and consider them the rightful winners of 2002 anyway.

It's entertaining to consider the impacts on the legacies of the teams deprived of their historical title by this hypothetical as well. Curry, KD and Kerr would have suffered the worst.

[scrabbarista]

Man, I can't vote on this one. I think Houston or Sacramento should be number one, then Indiana, then Phoenix. People kind of treat Nash like he won a title anyway. Ranking him Top 30 is insane from my perspective, but plenty seem to do so, and I think some even put him in their Top 25. I have him 39th at the moment.

[AEnigma]

^ And this is why the answer is the 2007 Suns.

[Special_Puppy]

^ And this is why the answer is the 2007 Suns.

Harden's reputation is much more dragged down by playoff choker/dropper allegations than Nash is though. Beating what is widely regarded as the best team ever assembled would also been seen as a much bigger achievement than beating a great but not ATG great Spurs team.

[AEnigma]

^ And this is why the answer is the 2007 Suns.

Harden's reputation is much more dragged down by playoff choker/dropper allegations than Nash is though. Beating what is widely regarded as the best team ever assembled would also been seen as a much bigger achievement than beating a great but not ATG great Spurs team.

The “choker” label does not really seem to hurt popular perceptions of Malone or Stockton. Gaudy box production will always insulate criticism to a degree, and Harden accordingly still fares much better in popular perception than Nash does. The comment three posts up is typical; easy to forget that here on the Player Comparisons forum with how much most appreciate what Nash could offer.

[Doctor MJ]

Imagine that this is the way the NBA unfolded (see events below). Which team/player(s) of the 4 options listed below receives the biggest legacy boost?

1. 2018 Rockets - Chris Paul never has the hamstring injury. Rockets win game 7 of the WCF series against the Warriors. Rockets advance and defeat the Cavaliers in the Finals 5 or 6 games.

2. 2007 Suns - Hip check Horry event never happens. Suns win G5, Spurs win G6, and then Suns squeak out a close one in G7 to win. Suns advance to WCF defeat the Jazz and defeat Cavs in the Finals.

3. 2002 Kings - Kings overcome the “rigged” conspiracy theory allegations and win in either G6 or a close one in G7 over the Lakers in the WCF. They defeat the Nets in the Finals in 4-5 games.

4. 1998 Pacers - Reggie nails a clutch 3 pointer to sink the Bulls in G7 to advance to the Finals. Pacers take down the Jazz in 6-7 games to win the Finals.

Hard question but I said the Pacers. Unlike the other 3 teams, I don't think those Pacers were ever seen as a champion-level team during Reggie's prime years. They were scary as hell, but it was mostly about upsetting teams and giving the champs a scare. Had they actually beaten the Last Dance Jordan Bulls and won the title, then we'd be seen the Pacers along with the Rockets as the next tier down from the Bulls from this era.

I will say: I did feel an inclination to click on the Suns, but that's more of a "What would have changed the league most?" thing. From my perspective, while the Suns winning the title would have certainly helped their mainstream legacy, I already see it as clear cut that they were a champion-level team. And frankly, I'd say something similar about the Rockets & Kings.

[Dr Positivity]

I think C Webb getting overhyped for his best player on title team status and Shaqobe conquerer is the biggest impact, as it stands he's going to end up a relatively lesser known star like Bob Love or something.

[Doctor MJ]

I think C Webb getting overhyped for his best player on title team status is the biggest impact.

Ah, yes just from a player perspective, I'd agree here. A title that year would have probably permanently cemented the idea that Webber deserved to be mentioned in the rare air of Shaq, Duncan & KG.