CHI & GSW: Deebo, Vuc, and Ayo for CP3 and Wiggins

[drosestruts]

Chicago in: Chris Paul, Andrew Wiggins, 2025 1st

Golden State in: DeMar DeRozan (S&T around his current contract ~$28mm), Nikola Vucevic, and Ayo Dosunmu


Why for Chicago:

Chicago has tried fitting a lot of square pegs into round holes - in basketball terms, they've tried a lot of non-point guards in the point guard role, for close to a decade now. They briefly had Lonzo then he's missed the last 2.5 years and despite promising workout highlights I simply don't trust him.

Coby had a good year but I still see him as more of a combo guard. Will still play plenty of minutes and spot start in Paul's place throughout the season.

Paul is a HoF player that has previous success with Donovan - let him help make sure the Bulls are running the show right on the court. CP3's presence could be huge for guys like LaVine, Coby, Williams, other young guys too

Wiggins' value is low, but he does check a box for the Bulls in that he's a forward with actual forward size and athleticism.

Bulls could lose their 2025 pick to the Spurs, this gives them a replacement pick.


Why for Golden State:

DeRozan provides them with a much needed other reliable scorer. DeRozan can create his own shot, create looks for others, and while Chicago doesn't do it enough, I like the idea of him in Kerr's system with all it's offball screens and cuts - especially with good passers out there in Curry, Green, and now Vuc. Signals to Curry that Golden State is going to try and remain competitive during Curry's time here.

Ayo gives them a nice young guard option that can play alongside Curry and run a 2nd unit. 17 points on 60% TS% post all-star break

Vucevic like Wiggins has seen his value go down. On the low-end he's a minutes eating, reliable center that at the very least is going to grab a bunch of rebounds and make good passes out of the high post. If he can re-find his offense and have a bounce back year it would be a huge boost for Golden State. Even just a return to form on his 3-point shooting would be huge.

Some speculate Vuc's game has suffered in recent years by putting too much on an already meh defender by often playing him in lineups featuring 4 guards. The effort expanded defensively in a bad situation negatively affects his offense.

Would be interesting to see him alongside a DPOY candidate like Green.

[giberish]

I'm pretty sure that if GS uses Paul as matching salary they'll end up over the 1st apron. Which means that they can't add a S&T player (I guess there's a chance of making it work if they let Klay walk).

[babyjax13]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Warriors would be an above the apron team, so they can't receive DDR in a trade.

I could see Paul for Vucevic and say ... Jevon Carter. Chicago gets off some money, Golden State gets some rotation quality players.

Vucevic
Draymond
Wiggins
Podz
Curry

That's a pretty interesting starting five even if it isn't competing for championships. They still have some ability to add, too. e.g., if they are able to get Jimmy for say ... Wiggins + Kuminga + Moody + pick(s) they could have a rotation that looks like:

Vucevic/TJD
Draymond/???
Butler/Klay
Podz/Butler
Curry/Carter

IF everyone is healthy for the playoffs that could be a WCF team with an outside chance at making the finals and maybe winning a championship if EVERYTHING breaks right for them. The team looks even better if they can trade Looney and some 2nds, etc. for a rotation player at power forward (e.g., Larry Nance).

[NW]

Vuc is about done and DeRozan is too tricky as a S&T with the apron rules as others have mentioned.

If GS is dealing with Chicago, it’s gambling on LaVine or a deal for Caruso imo

[drosestruts]

Thanks for the insights on the sign and trade potentially being illegal if they keep Klay and his cap hold - probably a discussion for a different thread but... should they keep Klay?? Especially if it's prohibitive to making other moves?

[drosestruts]

Vuc is about done and DeRozan is too tricky as a S&T with the apron rules as others have mentioned.

If GS is dealing with Chicago, it’s gambling on LaVine or a deal for Caruso imo

I'd be very curious to see Vuc in a different location and to see if there's any credence to the suggestion that Chicago's insistence on playing 4 guards is just wiping him out on the defensive end.

dropping from a 35% 3P% to 29% is pretty drastic.

I also feel like every year you have random vets everyone thought was done for having good seasons in a new location. Not sure that's what the future holds for Vuc - I just think Chicago's lineup has to change or he needs a new spot if anyone wants to get the most out of him.

[hugepatsfan]

I'm so tired of logging in, reading posts of trade ideas, critically thinking through them, formulating thoughts on whether it's good value and whether it makes sense on the court, and then scrolling down to type and see what others think.... only to read "they're over the apron".

New CBA sucks so **** much lol

[gswhoops]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Warriors would be an above the apron team, so they can't receive DDR in a trade.

I could see Paul for Vucevic and say ... Jevon Carter. Chicago gets off some money, Golden State gets some rotation quality players.

Vucevic
Draymond
Wiggins
Podz
Curry

That's a pretty interesting starting five even if it isn't competing for championships. They still have some ability to add, too. e.g., if they are able to get Jimmy for say ... Wiggins + Kuminga + Moody + pick(s) they could have a rotation that looks like:

Vucevic/TJD
Draymond/???
Butler/Klay
Podz/Butler
Curry/Carter

IF everyone is healthy for the playoffs that could be a WCF team with an outside chance at making the finals and maybe winning a championship if EVERYTHING breaks right for them. The team looks even better if they can trade Looney and some 2nds, etc. for a rotation player at power forward (e.g., Larry Nance).

The problem with this plan is that trading for Jimmy would hard cap us at the second apron as well, because we would need to aggregate salaries to make the deal legal. So we would either have to lose Klay or not guarantee CP3.

[gswhoops]

Thanks for the insights on the sign and trade potentially being illegal if they keep Klay and his cap hold - probably a discussion for a different thread but... should they keep Klay?? Especially if it's prohibitive to making other moves?

I think that obviously depends on the move. Klay to DDR is an upgrade on paper, but not a big enough one to effectively foreclose all of our other avenues of improvement this offseason, which would be the net effect of this deal.

Vuc is about done and DeRozan is too tricky as a S&T with the apron rules as others have mentioned.

If GS is dealing with Chicago, it’s gambling on LaVine or a deal for Caruso imo

I'd be very curious to see Vuc in a different location and to see if there's any credence to the suggestion that Chicago's insistence on playing 4 guards is just wiping him out on the defensive end.

dropping from a 35% 3P% to 29% is pretty drastic.

I also feel like every year you have random vets everyone thought was done for having good seasons in a new location. Not sure that's what the future holds for Vuc - I just think Chicago's lineup has to change or he needs a new spot if anyone wants to get the most out of him.

I'd also be curious to take a flier on Vuc, but the only deal that really makes sense from our perspective, $ and roster wise, would be something based on Wiggins for Vuc, which I doubt y'all would be interested in.

[drosestruts]

I'm so tired of logging in, reading posts of trade ideas, critically thinking through them, formulating thoughts on whether it's good value and whether it makes sense on the court, and then scrolling down to type and see what others think.... only to read "they're over the apron".

New CBA sucks so **** much lol

Really it's up to them if they want to be over the apron or not - so feel free to share those thoughts

[drosestruts]

Thanks for the insights on the sign and trade potentially being illegal if they keep Klay and his cap hold - probably a discussion for a different thread but... should they keep Klay?? Especially if it's prohibitive to making other moves?

I think that obviously depends on the move. Klay to DDR is an upgrade on paper, but not a big enough one to effectively foreclose all of our other avenues of improvement this offseason, which would be the net effect of this deal.

I actually think there could be a good discussion here - as I think it's a pretty sizeable advantage in having DeRozan and this stage of their careers over Klay.

At a quick glance DeRozan is giving you 24 points on 58% TS% to Klay's 18 points on 57.6% TS%

One could look at that and feel you're getting similar enough efficiency, but how they get their points I think is where the gulf between the two players really widens.

When looking at the % of FG's that are assisted you see:

DeMar:
2P FG assisted - 28%
3P FG assisted - 85%

Klay:
2P FG assisted - 72%
3P FG assisted - 94%

Klay is heavily reliant on others to generate points.

I also think the large free throw disparity scores points for DeMar here as well - 7.7 FTA to 1.8. DeMar and Curry together are going to be putting pressure on opposing teams by getting players into foul trouble every night.

Vuc is about done and DeRozan is too tricky as a S&T with the apron rules as others have mentioned.

If GS is dealing with Chicago, it’s gambling on LaVine or a deal for Caruso imo

I'd be very curious to see Vuc in a different location and to see if there's any credence to the suggestion that Chicago's insistence on playing 4 guards is just wiping him out on the defensive end.

dropping from a 35% 3P% to 29% is pretty drastic.

I also feel like every year you have random vets everyone thought was done for having good seasons in a new location. Not sure that's what the future holds for Vuc - I just think Chicago's lineup has to change or he needs a new spot if anyone wants to get the most out of him.

I'd also be curious to take a flier on Vuc, but the only deal that really makes sense from our perspective, $ and roster wise, would be something based on Wiggins for Vuc, which I doubt y'all would be interested in.

Like I said in the OP - Chicago is pretty shallow in actual forward sized forward - so I think there could be more mutual interest there than you'd think, and perhaps a smaller workable deal than the original idea.

[ChettheJet]

The hangup for me is giving up Dosunmu, he should make another improvement this summer and if he does he ad Coby make foe a solid young athletic back court. The other thing is Wiggins is going to pick up that $30M option so his contract is as long as Lavine's.

Since 2016 CP3 has only played in 70 games twice and you're looking at him to start and play heavy minutes, HEY he's 39 years old.

Are the Bulls keeping Lavine and Caruso?

Paul Whte
Lavine Caruso
nobody at center
Williams Wiggins
DeRozan

that's awful

[giberish]

Thanks for the insights on the sign and trade potentially being illegal if they keep Klay and his cap hold - probably a discussion for a different thread but... should they keep Klay?? Especially if it's prohibitive to making other moves?

I think that obviously depends on the move. Klay to DDR is an upgrade on paper, but not a big enough one to effectively foreclose all of our other avenues of improvement this offseason, which would be the net effect of this deal.

I actually think there could be a good discussion here - as I think it's a pretty sizeable advantage in having DeRozan and this stage of their careers over Klay.

At a quick glance DeRozan is giving you 24 points on 58% TS% to Klay's 18 points on 57.6% TS%

One could look at that and feel you're getting similar enough efficiency, but how they get their points I think is where the gulf between the two players really widens.

When looking at the % of FG's that are assisted you see:

DeMar:
2P FG assisted - 28%
3P FG assisted - 85%

Klay:
2P FG assisted - 72%
3P FG assisted - 94%

Klay is heavily reliant on others to generate points.

I also think the large free throw disparity scores points for DeMar here as well - 7.7 FTA to 1.8. DeMar and Curry together are going to be putting pressure on opposing teams by getting players into foul trouble every night.

Some of this is misleading. Klay creates a lot of his shots with his off the ball movement. He's not just standing around waiting for his man to leave him to help on someone else. Many of his shots may be assisted but are still mostly created by Klay. And you can certainly argue that the extra defensive attention given to Klay's off the ball movement opens up offense for teammates even when he doesn't touch the ball (and thus doesn't have any box-score record).

Of course Klay's offense has become more limited post-injury and DDR can create more (which would be useful for GS). Klay's defense has also declined though I'm not sure how good DDR is there.

[gswhoops]

Thanks for the insights on the sign and trade potentially being illegal if they keep Klay and his cap hold - probably a discussion for a different thread but... should they keep Klay?? Especially if it's prohibitive to making other moves?

I think that obviously depends on the move. Klay to DDR is an upgrade on paper, but not a big enough one to effectively foreclose all of our other avenues of improvement this offseason, which would be the net effect of this deal.

I actually think there could be a good discussion here - as I think it's a pretty sizeable advantage in having DeRozan and this stage of their careers over Klay.

At a quick glance DeRozan is giving you 24 points on 58% TS% to Klay's 18 points on 57.6% TS%

One could look at that and feel you're getting similar enough efficiency, but how they get their points I think is where the gulf between the two players really widens.

When looking at the % of FG's that are assisted you see:

DeMar:
2P FG assisted - 28%
3P FG assisted - 85%

Klay:
2P FG assisted - 72%
3P FG assisted - 94%

Klay is heavily reliant on others to generate points.

I also think the large free throw disparity scores points for DeMar here as well - 7.7 FTA to 1.8. DeMar and Curry together are going to be putting pressure on opposing teams by getting players into foul trouble every night.

I don't dispute that DDR is better than Klay at this point in their careers. But the net effect of using CP3 to match salaries (rather than taking the $30M in cap space) plus taking back a S&T (hard capping us at the first apron) means that we are essentially done adding salary after this deal. I think we can make a better team by re-signing Klay, using the MLE, and making other trades than we can by *just* swapping Klay and a 1st for DDR and calling it a day.

I'd be very curious to see Vuc in a different location and to see if there's any credence to the suggestion that Chicago's insistence on playing 4 guards is just wiping him out on the defensive end.

dropping from a 35% 3P% to 29% is pretty drastic.

I also feel like every year you have random vets everyone thought was done for having good seasons in a new location. Not sure that's what the future holds for Vuc - I just think Chicago's lineup has to change or he needs a new spot if anyone wants to get the most out of him.

I'd also be curious to take a flier on Vuc, but the only deal that really makes sense from our perspective, $ and roster wise, would be something based on Wiggins for Vuc, which I doubt y'all would be interested in.

Like I said in the OP - Chicago is pretty shallow in actual forward sized forward - so I think there could be more mutual interest there than you'd think, and perhaps a smaller workable deal than the original idea.

I mean, I do think there would be some mutual benefit from a Wiggins/Vuc swap, but the devil is in the details.

[Godaddycurse]

I'm so tired of logging in, reading posts of trade ideas, critically thinking through them, formulating thoughts on whether it's good value and whether it makes sense on the court, and then scrolling down to type and see what others think.... only to read "they're over the apron".

New CBA sucks so **** much lol

yea i stopped thinking about the value until i make sure new threads are legal first