Moderators: Duke4life831, Marcus
Big J wrote:sisibilio wrote:Defensive awareness is definitely a thing, Marc Gasol was DPOY despite being slow footed thanks to his ability to read the game.
Gasol was more mobile than Edey, and also played in a different era.
eyeatoma wrote:You guys still dont' get it. Playoff accomplishment don't matter when you're up for your 1st MVP. When you're up for your 3rd in a row, damn straight it matters, as the only ones who done it are top 15 players of all time who have won rings.
QingJames wrote:Big J wrote:sisibilio wrote:Defensive awareness is definitely a thing, Marc Gasol was DPOY despite being slow footed thanks to his ability to read the game.
Gasol was more mobile than Edey, and also played in a different era.
Gasol also anchored one of the best defensive teams to win a championship at age 34 - and all in the modern era.
FrodoBaggins wrote:QingJames wrote:Big J wrote:
Gasol was more mobile than Edey, and also played in a different era.
Gasol also anchored one of the best defensive teams to win a championship at age 34 - and all in the modern era.
He was also the starting center anchoring the #1 defense (-5.2 rDRtg) for the majority of the season at 36 in his last season with LA. Some one-number metrics like LEBRON had him as a top 6 defender on a per 100 possession basis.
Those late projections despite an incredible resume are due to a misunderstanding of Edey’s game and how it translates to the NBA. Edey dominated mostly out of post-ups in the NCAA. -- nearly 64% of his possessions -- which ranked in the 100th percentile in terms of volume, and scored at a rate of 1.047 points per possession, which ranked in the 85th percentile in terms of efficiency. However, most don’t believe this scoring will translate to the NBA given the current state of the NBA and its stress on perimeter creation.
While Edey’s post-ups won’t be the focal point of an offense, they can still provide a lot of value through secondary/tertiary scoring. His post-ups can serve as an excellent release valve in late shot clock possessions, where an offense turns to isolation for creation. He’ll also be able to punish mismatches and smaller players in the NBA at the same level as he did in college, which is an effective counter to switching defenses.
Most of the impact he’ll provide on offense in the NBA, though, won’t be through the post, but rather as a screener, roller, playfinisher, and offensive rebounder. While a majority of his interior scoring came out of the post in college, he was still dominant as a rolling play finisher and glass cleaner. He set strong screens and shot 82% on his rolls, while boasting an 18.1 offensive rebound percentage and was in the 81st percentile in putbacks scoring. He also scored 1.854 points per possession on his 48 cuts, which ranked in the 99th percentile, per Synergy. This form of interior scoring with screen and rolls, cuts, dives, lobs, and offensive rebounds will translate seamlessly to the NBA.
Centers that provide complimentary post scoring along with screening and other forms of more scalable interior scoring have already proven to have fruitful careers, as Jonas Valanciunas and Ivica Zubac come to mind.
FrodoBaggins wrote:DOT wrote:So we're at the point where we're strawmanning the arguments in order to prop up Edey
I just don't get the stanning for this guy, like he's fine and will probably be a role player for a long time due to having a specialization, but some of y'all are trying to convince people he's gonna be a superstar or something.
You're the one straw-manning. No one is "convincing" people he's going to be a superstar. We're discussing an *unlikely* hypothetical about a player's ceiling.
This is the second time you've misrepresented a discussion.
FrodoBaggins wrote:Edey's primary, baseline value is his screening, rolling, finishing, foul drawing, rebounding, and paint deterrence on defense. The post-up is a value-add that makes his rim-runner game more dynamic and allows him to destroy mismatches from small ball lineups, switches, and cross-matches in transition.
FrodoBaggins wrote:To think that Edey was only getting 1.2 "cuts" per game is crazy. It really shows you that he wasn't getting that many easy baskets. Purdue just didn't have the talent to run more PnRs and play Zach more off the ball. Braden Smith and the rest played off of Edey.
There are rim-running bigs in the NBA getting 3-4 cuts per game. Guys like Rudy, Capela, Poetl, Sabonis and more are some examples. A perimeter creator like Trae would have Zach feasting.
Big J wrote:FrodoBaggins wrote:QingJames wrote:Gasol also anchored one of the best defensive teams to win a championship at age 34 - and all in the modern era.
He was also the starting center anchoring the #1 defense (-5.2 rDRtg) for the majority of the season at 36 in his last season with LA. Some one-number metrics like LEBRON had him as a top 6 defender on a per 100 possession basis.
Yes, and Rudy Gobert was the DPOY, and 10x more mobile than Edey, yet was continually hunted and cooked on the perimeter in the playoffs.
eyeatoma wrote:You guys still dont' get it. Playoff accomplishment don't matter when you're up for your 1st MVP. When you're up for your 3rd in a row, damn straight it matters, as the only ones who done it are top 15 players of all time who have won rings.
QingJames wrote:Big J wrote:FrodoBaggins wrote:He was also the starting center anchoring the #1 defense (-5.2 rDRtg) for the majority of the season at 36 in his last season with LA. Some one-number metrics like LEBRON had him as a top 6 defender on a per 100 possession basis.
Yes, and Rudy Gobert was the DPOY, and 10x more mobile than Edey, yet was continually hunted and cooked on the perimeter in the playoffs.
That’s a scheme issue though. Or are you one of those “Gobert is actually a bad defender” folks?
Edey’s weakest skillset is on the defensive end and I don’t think his footwork or awareness is good enough to actually become a positive defender, even under a drop scheme that keeps him close to the rim. That’s why I don’t think he should be drafted within the lottery. But if the argument is that you can’t draft a big who will get cooked if you continually make him guard on the perimeter, that’s a terrible argument. As with Gobert, the issue is usually scheme and surrounding, exploitable personnel rather than an innate failing on the part of the big man.
Put another way: you can count on one hand the bigs in the league who can competently defend on the perimeter. Bam, Mobley, Wemby (gets blown by all the time but obviously able to recover to a freakish degree). That’s pretty much it. Yet look at the teams in the finals - Al’s lack of mobility and Lively’s poor perimeter defense obviously didn’t sink those teams.
People REALLY overstate the “he’s big and can’t guard at the perimeter” for big man prospects. If you want to have a go at Edey’s defense you should be really targeting his bad footwork and seemingly slow awareness/recognition. That’s the stuff that would keep me from drafting him because I don’t think defensive awareness is something that most players have proven capable of improving once they hit an NBA level. You have it or you don’t.
Big J wrote:QingJames wrote:Big J wrote:
Yes, and Rudy Gobert was the DPOY, and 10x more mobile than Edey, yet was continually hunted and cooked on the perimeter in the playoffs.
That’s a scheme issue though. Or are you one of those “Gobert is actually a bad defender” folks?
Edey’s weakest skillset is on the defensive end and I don’t think his footwork or awareness is good enough to actually become a positive defender, even under a drop scheme that keeps him close to the rim. That’s why I don’t think he should be drafted within the lottery. But if the argument is that you can’t draft a big who will get cooked if you continually make him guard on the perimeter, that’s a terrible argument. As with Gobert, the issue is usually scheme and surrounding, exploitable personnel rather than an innate failing on the part of the big man.
Put another way: you can count on one hand the bigs in the league who can competently defend on the perimeter. Bam, Mobley, Wemby (gets blown by all the time but obviously able to recover to a freakish degree). That’s pretty much it. Yet look at the teams in the finals - Al’s lack of mobility and Lively’s poor perimeter defense obviously didn’t sink those teams.
People REALLY overstate the “he’s big and can’t guard at the perimeter” for big man prospects. If you want to have a go at Edey’s defense you should be really targeting his bad footwork and seemingly slow awareness/recognition. That’s the stuff that would keep me from drafting him because I don’t think defensive awareness is something that most players have proven capable of improving once they hit an NBA level. You have it or you don’t.
The difference in mobility between Edey and Al/Lively is night and day though. Luka isn't even forcing Al into the action that often. He's pulling Tatum on him to wear him down, and Boston is doing the same to Luka. However, if Edey was out there playing for Boston you damn sure better believe that Luka & Kyrie be hunting him every single time down the court. He would singlehandedly tank Bostons defense.
tester551 wrote:Big J wrote:QingJames wrote:That’s a scheme issue though. Or are you one of those “Gobert is actually a bad defender” folks?
Edey’s weakest skillset is on the defensive end and I don’t think his footwork or awareness is good enough to actually become a positive defender, even under a drop scheme that keeps him close to the rim. That’s why I don’t think he should be drafted within the lottery. But if the argument is that you can’t draft a big who will get cooked if you continually make him guard on the perimeter, that’s a terrible argument. As with Gobert, the issue is usually scheme and surrounding, exploitable personnel rather than an innate failing on the part of the big man.
Put another way: you can count on one hand the bigs in the league who can competently defend on the perimeter. Bam, Mobley, Wemby (gets blown by all the time but obviously able to recover to a freakish degree). That’s pretty much it. Yet look at the teams in the finals - Al’s lack of mobility and Lively’s poor perimeter defense obviously didn’t sink those teams.
People REALLY overstate the “he’s big and can’t guard at the perimeter” for big man prospects. If you want to have a go at Edey’s defense you should be really targeting his bad footwork and seemingly slow awareness/recognition. That’s the stuff that would keep me from drafting him because I don’t think defensive awareness is something that most players have proven capable of improving once they hit an NBA level. You have it or you don’t.
The difference in mobility between Edey and Al/Lively is night and day though. Luka isn't even forcing Al into the action that often. He's pulling Tatum on him to wear him down, and Boston is doing the same to Luka. However, if Edey was out there playing for Boston you damn sure better believe that Luka & Kyrie be hunting him every single time down the court. He would singlehandedly tank Bostons defense.
I don't disagree here.
But why is this such a big concern for Edey to make him 'undraftable' to some - while Clingan is getting top 5 consideration while being just as slow?
Big J wrote:tester551 wrote:Big J wrote:
The difference in mobility between Edey and Al/Lively is night and day though. Luka isn't even forcing Al into the action that often. He's pulling Tatum on him to wear him down, and Boston is doing the same to Luka. However, if Edey was out there playing for Boston you damn sure better believe that Luka & Kyrie be hunting him every single time down the court. He would singlehandedly tank Bostons defense.
I don't disagree here.
But why is this such a big concern for Edey to make him 'undraftable' to some - while Clingan is getting top 5 consideration while being just as slow?
Clingan isn’t as slow. He’s also an elite defensive big.
Hoopz Afrik wrote:Big J wrote:tester551 wrote:I don't disagree here.
But why is this such a big concern for Edey to make him 'undraftable' to some - while Clingan is getting top 5 consideration while being just as slow?
Clingan isn’t as slow. He’s also an elite defensive big.
Trust and believe Luka and Kyrie would hunt Donovan Clingan every time down the court too if they saw him on the other side. 95% of bigs are a fish out of water against elite perimeter creators yet somehow it's only a knock against Zach Edey.
Big J wrote:Hoopz Afrik wrote:Big J wrote:
Clingan isn’t as slow. He’s also an elite defensive big.
Trust and believe Luka and Kyrie would hunt Donovan Clingan every time down the court too if they saw him on the other side. 95% of bigs are a fish out of water against elite perimeter creators yet somehow it's only a knock against Zach Edey.
Because Edey is slow as freaking molasses. Clingan might get hunted by those guys, but the difference between him and Edey is there is a chance of him actually making a stop. Edey is just an easy blow by.
eyeatoma wrote:You guys still dont' get it. Playoff accomplishment don't matter when you're up for your 1st MVP. When you're up for your 3rd in a row, damn straight it matters, as the only ones who done it are top 15 players of all time who have won rings.
QingJames wrote:Big J wrote:Hoopz Afrik wrote:
Trust and believe Luka and Kyrie would hunt Donovan Clingan every time down the court too if they saw him on the other side. 95% of bigs are a fish out of water against elite perimeter creators yet somehow it's only a knock against Zach Edey.
Because Edey is slow as freaking molasses. Clingan might get hunted by those guys, but the difference between him and Edey is there is a chance of him actually making a stop. Edey is just an easy blow by.
Clingan is not stopping any elite self-creator on the perimeter. What he might be able to do is smartly funnel that creator toward help defense on the block. If you think Clingan is clamping guys on the perimeter like Bam, I have to question how much you’ve actually seen of him.
The big difference between Edey and Clingan on the defensive end is awareness and footwork, not speed or athleticism. Clingan is getting cooked in the NBA every time he is brought up to the arc against a great ball handler, believe it.
lastb1ckman wrote:QingJames wrote:Big J wrote:
Because Edey is slow as freaking molasses. Clingan might get hunted by those guys, but the difference between him and Edey is there is a chance of him actually making a stop. Edey is just an easy blow by.
Clingan is not stopping any elite self-creator on the perimeter. What he might be able to do is smartly funnel that creator toward help defense on the block. If you think Clingan is clamping guys on the perimeter like Bam, I have to question how much you’ve actually seen of him.
The big difference between Edey and Clingan on the defensive end is awareness and footwork, not speed or athleticism. Clingan is getting cooked in the NBA every time he is brought up to the arc against a great ball handler, believe it.
It's the same reason Gobert gets cooked against great ball handlers on the perimeter. None of these 7+ footers can hang with them, you have to scheme properly to make up for it, or have them funnel the ball handler to help. The centers that actually slow down the Lukas and Kyries of the world are like Bam, or prime Time lord, or AD. Maybe Claxton and Mobley.
lastb1ckman wrote:lastb1ckman wrote:QingJames wrote:Clingan is not stopping any elite self-creator on the perimeter. What he might be able to do is smartly funnel that creator toward help defense on the block. If you think Clingan is clamping guys on the perimeter like Bam, I have to question how much you’ve actually seen of him.
The big difference between Edey and Clingan on the defensive end is awareness and footwork, not speed or athleticism. Clingan is getting cooked in the NBA every time he is brought up to the arc against a great ball handler, believe it.
It's the same reason Gobert gets cooked against great ball handlers on the perimeter. None of these 7+ footers can hang with them, you have to scheme properly to make up for it, or have them funnel the ball handler to help. The centers that actually slow down the Lukas and Kyries of the world are like Bam, or prime Time lord, or AD. Maybe Claxton and Mobley.
Along with this, if you look at the list of active centers in the league there's a lot more of the big traditional drop bigs that get cooked on the perimeter than the ones that don't. everyone talks about switchability and holding up aganist top guards, because it's a rare ability. Most centers can't and never will.
