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[mkot]

The bad news are the Celtics are here to stay unlike '21 Suns who had a short window with 35+yo CP3 and decided to double down on short windows with KD. If healthy Celtics are in good shape to win titles in next 2-3 years, even beyond as surrounding still young Tatum and Brown won't be difficult at all.

Perhaps but they will also run into same 2nd apron issues as us as well. They just gave KP an extension last season (I believe), they gave Jrue a fat extension, White is due for one as he's expiring and Tatum will be extension eligible next month and he's going to worth $315 over 5 which will be like over $60m a year.

From what's been said publicly they are looking to keep the core together so assume they can they will be a 2nd apron team which means their bench will continue to suck. They are able to get away with a weak bench this time but things could be different if the Knicks, Sixers and Bucks are healthy come playoff time, and a different team with better overall talent and better balance of offense and defense comes out of the West i.e. Denver.

[Bogyo]

The bad news are the Celtics are here to stay unlike '21 Suns who had a short window with 35+yo CP3 and decided to double down on short windows with KD. If healthy Celtics are in good shape to win titles in next 2-3 years, even beyond as surrounding still young Tatum and Brown won't be difficult at all.

Perhaps but they will also run into same 2nd apron issues as us as well. They just gave KP an extension last season (I believe), they gave Jrue a fat extension, White is due for one as he's expiring and Tatum will be extension eligible next month and he's going to worth $315 over 5 which will be like over $60m a year.

From what's been said publicly they are looking to keep the core together so assume they can they will be a 2nd apron team which means their bench will continue to suck. They are able to get away with a weak bench this time but things could be different if the Knicks, Sixers and Bucks are healthy come playoff time, and a different team with better overall talent and better balance of offense and defense comes out of the West i.e. Denver.

They have (pretty much) all of their picks going forward, and with the new TV money coming in gradually, and the expansion teams coming in the next 2-3 years I don't think that finances will be really bad for them, even being a 2nd apron team. They will be contending in the next 4-5 years as they have their top5 signed through that period on fixed deals - which were calculated and made during the old CBA with the old TV money. 3 years from now the MLE will be above 20 mill and there will not be any team who will not have at least one 50mill/year contract on the team.

[lilfishi22]

Perhaps but they will also run into same 2nd apron issues as us as well. They just gave KP an extension last season (I believe), they gave Jrue a fat extension, White is due for one as he's expiring and Tatum will be extension eligible next month and he's going to worth $315 over 5 which will be like over $60m a year.

From what's been said publicly they are looking to keep the core together so assume they can they will be a 2nd apron team which means their bench will continue to suck. They are able to get away with a weak bench this time but things could be different if the Knicks, Sixers and Bucks are healthy come playoff time, and a different team with better overall talent and better balance of offense and defense comes out of the West i.e. Denver.

They have (pretty much) all of their picks going forward, and with the new TV money coming in gradually, and the expansion teams coming in the next 2-3 years I don't think that finances will be really bad for them, even being a 2nd apron team. They will be contending in the next 4-5 years as they have their top5 signed through that period on fixed deals - which were calculated and made during the old CBA with the old TV money. 3 years from now the MLE will be above 20 mill and there will not be any team who will not have at least one 50mill/year contract on the team.

Money/tax is one aspect for sure but the biggest obstacle are the other 2nd apron trade restrictions which has limited us. C's are clearly in a better position than us having better players on the roster but with the 2nd apron CBA, I think "dynasties" (ie contenders for 5+ years) are much harder to build and sustain now so I don't personally subscribe to idea that any team contending for the next 4-5 years is some foregone conclusion, even the C's. So I can easily buy they'll be the clear #1 contender again next season (assuming no crazy moves happen during the offseason) and likely the following season as well but after that, it's pretty foggy.

The Celtics now have all of Tatum, Brown, Holiday, Horford, Porzingis, Springer, Derrick White and Payton Pritchard signed through at least the 2024-25 season. White and Horford are set to become unrestricted free agents in 2025, but the Celtics will have the core of Tatum, Brown, Holiday and Porzingis locked up through 2025-26 once Tatum signs his inevitable supermax extension.

If the Celtics lose White or Horford as free agents in 2025, they'll likely have a tough time replacing either one. The same might even go for Porzingis in 2026 if he doesn't sign another extension before then. The second apron basically makes teams choose between retaining their own players or withering away slowly.

The Celtics front office can deal with those decisions later. For now, they've clearly asserted themselves as the best team in the NBA this season. After signing Holiday to an extension Wednesday, they're now poised to keep this group together until another team can catch up—in part because they don't have much of a choice.

The bolded part in particular is what I'm thinking about. If they say F it and go all in resigning both White, Horford and eventually KP to new deals over the next couple of seasons, they'll have a core with the Jays as the clear stars then you have Jrue in his mid-30's, Horford already in his late 30's White and KP as the next guys on the team who'll still be in their prime. Now KP is always a bit of a mystery as to his health but White should be a solid dude well into his 30's. What they do have going for them imo is that no one else in the East has really built a convincing future either like say the Thunder or Spurs in the West.

And having those picks will be helpful in allowing them to potentially extend their competitiveness and luckily they have a great scouting department but they'll be picking in the late 20's and they'll still need to hit on those as well. Or trade them in a package for other talent.

It's not inconceivable that they continue to be a top 5 contender for the next 4-5 years but with the way the 2nd apron works, it's far harder to predict too far in the future and I just have to see it happen in the 2nd apron era to believe it.

[bwgood77]

RIP Mavs.

Just didn't have the firepower against a stacked Celtics team.

If we by a miracle had made it to the finals we probably would have been swept with the Celtics winning by 30 and then in game 4 we would probably have been blown out by 40+ lol

If the Mavs in their current form have no chance against the Celtics what hope do we have with a team that lacks size and toughness at every position?

Just think, the Mavs are getting manhandled by the Celtics, or at least can't pull anything out, much like the TWolves couldn't against Dallas, going down in 5, after the TWolves took out the defending champ Nuggets by winning game 7 in Denver after sweeping us. Not only would we have gotten crushed by the Celtics, but we got crushed by a team that got crushed by the team getting crushed by Boston.

This is why I think we just don't have the assets to make a deep run in the playoffs next season even if we make all the rights moves it just ultimately won't be enough to solidify the bench because due to a lack of assets we can only make a couple moves which won't bring us to the level of the top 6 teams in the league.

We can use the #22 pick to fill one of our needs whether it's a point guard, center or forward and then maybe we could trade Grayson for another player but even then we still have to shore up our bench which is going to be hard to do when you only have the vet minimum to offer free agents.

We have the talent offensively, but just not the defense or depth, and are going to start getting worse as KD declines and we have few picks (and those will not be good ones).

If we can kill this draft pick and get a guy who immediately contributes in a way Derrick Lively did (perhaps Yves) or a PG who can make a big impact, like a middle class man's Brunson/Haliburton (Kolek) then maybe it helps a bit.

But the main thing is the west is just too tough, our window is closing, and other teams are younger and getting better. Even a team like Memphis, who will have a high pick, with Ja, JJJ and Bane, all still improving, plus Smart, Clarke, etc, who was the #2 seed just a year ago, and Houston, who was on fire at the end of the season, even without Sengun. Then SA will get better.

OKC, Minnesota, Denver and Dallas not going anywhere soon, with young rising stars not in their prime yet, like Shai, Ant, Luka (still just entering prime which is scary), and then Denver is young with a 3 time MVP. The Pelicans are deep and young too.

It will probably be tougher to make the playoffs next year. We could literally miss without a pick. We should be firmly in the hunt for a 5-8 seed but other younger teams are better...and we were very lucky KD was healthy the whole year...that's very unlikely going forward.

[Bogyo]

From what's been said publicly they are looking to keep the core together so assume they can they will be a 2nd apron team which means their bench will continue to suck. They are able to get away with a weak bench this time but things could be different if the Knicks, Sixers and Bucks are healthy come playoff time, and a different team with better overall talent and better balance of offense and defense comes out of the West i.e. Denver.

They have (pretty much) all of their picks going forward, and with the new TV money coming in gradually, and the expansion teams coming in the next 2-3 years I don't think that finances will be really bad for them, even being a 2nd apron team. They will be contending in the next 4-5 years as they have their top5 signed through that period on fixed deals - which were calculated and made during the old CBA with the old TV money. 3 years from now the MLE will be above 20 mill and there will not be any team who will not have at least one 50mill/year contract on the team.

Money/tax is one aspect for sure but the biggest obstacle are the other 2nd apron trade restrictions which has limited us. C's are clearly in a better position than us having better players on the roster but with the 2nd apron CBA, I think "dynasties" (ie contenders for 5+ years) are much harder to build and sustain now so I don't personally subscribe to idea that any team contending for the next 4-5 years is some foregone conclusion, even the C's. So I can easily buy they'll be the clear #1 contender again next season (assuming no crazy moves happen during the offseason) and likely the following season as well but after that, it's pretty foggy.

The Celtics now have all of Tatum, Brown, Holiday, Horford, Porzingis, Springer, Derrick White and Payton Pritchard signed through at least the 2024-25 season. White and Horford are set to become unrestricted free agents in 2025, but the Celtics will have the core of Tatum, Brown, Holiday and Porzingis locked up through 2025-26 once Tatum signs his inevitable supermax extension.

If the Celtics lose White or Horford as free agents in 2025, they'll likely have a tough time replacing either one. The same might even go for Porzingis in 2026 if he doesn't sign another extension before then. The second apron basically makes teams choose between retaining their own players or withering away slowly.

The Celtics front office can deal with those decisions later. For now, they've clearly asserted themselves as the best team in the NBA this season. After signing Holiday to an extension Wednesday, they're now poised to keep this group together until another team can catch up—in part because they don't have much of a choice.

The bolded part in particular is what I'm thinking about. If they say F it and go all in resigning both White, Horford and eventually KP to new deals over the next couple of seasons, they'll have a core with the Jays as the clear stars then you have Jrue in his mid-30's, Horford already in his late 30's White and KP as the next guys on the team who'll still be in their prime. Now KP is always a bit of a mystery as to his health but White should be a solid dude well into his 30's. What they do have going for them imo is that no one else in the East has really built a convincing future either like say the Thunder or Spurs in the West.

And having those picks will be helpful in allowing them to potentially extend their competitiveness and luckily they have a great scouting department but they'll be picking in the late 20's and they'll still need to hit on those as well. Or trade them in a package for other talent.

It's not inconceivable that they continue to be a top 5 contender for the next 4-5 years but with the way the 2nd apron works, it's far harder to predict too far in the future and I just have to see it happen in the 2nd apron era to believe it.

They will re-sign White, and probably let go of the geriatric Horford, and will get a young big with their draft picks. Getting a bench big is not a huge deal anyways, especially if you have a good scouting department, time to bring them along, and 2 good playmaking point guards in White and Jrue. I don't see how they will have any huge problems in the next 4 years, unless KP gets badly injured or one of their guys goes nuts and wants off the team.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Just think, the Mavs are getting manhandled by the Celtics, or at least can't pull anything out, much like the TWolves couldn't against Dallas, going down in 5, after the TWolves took out the defending champ Nuggets by winning game 7 in Denver after sweeping us. Not only would we have gotten crushed by the Celtics, but we got crushed by a team that got crushed by the team getting crushed by Boston.

This is why I think we just don't have the assets to make a deep run in the playoffs next season even if we make all the rights moves it just ultimately won't be enough to solidify the bench because due to a lack of assets we can only make a couple moves which won't bring us to the level of the top 6 teams in the league.

We can use the #22 pick to fill one of our needs whether it's a point guard, center or forward and then maybe we could trade Grayson for another player but even then we still have to shore up our bench which is going to be hard to do when you only have the vet minimum to offer free agents.

We have the talent offensively, but just not the defense or depth, and are going to start getting worse as KD declines and we have few picks (and those will not be good ones).

If we can kill this draft pick and get a guy who immediately contributes in a way Derrick Lively did (perhaps Yves) or a PG who can make a big impact, like a middle class man's Brunson/Haliburton (Kolek) then maybe it helps a bit.

But the main thing is the west is just too tough, our window is closing, and other teams are younger and getting better. Even a team like Memphis, who will have a high pick, with Ja, JJJ and Bane, all still improving, plus Smart, Clarke, etc, who was the #2 seed just a year ago, and Houston, who was on fire at the end of the season, even without Sengun. Then SA will get better.

OKC, Minnesota, Denver and Dallas not going anywhere soon, with young rising stars not in their prime yet, like Shai, Ant, Luka (still just entering prime which is scary), and then Denver is young with a 3 time MVP. The Pelicans are deep and young too.

It will probably be tougher to make the playoffs next year. We could literally miss without a pick. We should be firmly in the hunt for a 5-8 seed but other younger teams are better...and we were very lucky KD was healthy the whole year...that's very unlikely going forward.

So many inconvenient and abject truths! Everything that you said is 1000% spot on, and we critically need to be adding key impact pieces from this draft that address our defensive weaknesses and overall depth! Sure some of the offensive wings mentioned sound nice on the surface, but how much opportunities are they really going to get over the next couple of seasons to actually have the ball with our 3 ball dominant elite offensive stars needing high usage for us to even be competitive in a cut-throat western conference and rapidly evolving league that is laughably more athletic, more physical, more size and length and loaded with talent and moxy too! This draft is really shallow and devoid of high-end talent, BUT is flush throughout all ranges with role players, rotation options, depth pieces, and most importantly for our two greatest needs............................ a few ELITE defensive connectors/playmakers with some at center, very solid utility prospects, and on generational defensive prospect at wing too. Also, POA defenders, high IQ table setting, playmaking, floor general archetype guards, and even a few very athletic or versatile two-way wings/forwards that can add legit depth to our bench.

Basically, this draft is perfect to address our supplemental, utility, and positional depth needs for our rotation and bench with cost-controlled options. And then the 2025 draft is conveniently loaded with star-impact prospects to replenish what we'll lose post KD and as our superteam slowly degrades or leaves and is dismantled. We need to be loading up on at least two or three very solid positional depth options in this draft with plans after this coming season to pivot and start looking at KD trades, etc to get in on the 25' draft to try and somewhat replace KD, etc.

*** We desperately need elite defenders to take pressure off of our big three, and to also lock down opposing star players which in turn will help us sustain leads and become more dominant offensively in the process by virtue of our stars not having to fully shoulder that burden as much! Then they can focus on being offensively elite at a higher overall rate and destroy opponents more easily without exhausting themselves as quickly on the defensive end of the floor.

[MrMiyagi]

Scott Foster tonight. We going back to Boston

[garrick]

Just think, the Mavs are getting manhandled by the Celtics, or at least can't pull anything out, much like the TWolves couldn't against Dallas, going down in 5, after the TWolves took out the defending champ Nuggets by winning game 7 in Denver after sweeping us. Not only would we have gotten crushed by the Celtics, but we got crushed by a team that got crushed by the team getting crushed by Boston.

This is why I think we just don't have the assets to make a deep run in the playoffs next season even if we make all the rights moves it just ultimately won't be enough to solidify the bench because due to a lack of assets we can only make a couple moves which won't bring us to the level of the top 6 teams in the league.

We can use the #22 pick to fill one of our needs whether it's a point guard, center or forward and then maybe we could trade Grayson for another player but even then we still have to shore up our bench which is going to be hard to do when you only have the vet minimum to offer free agents.

We have the talent offensively, but just not the defense or depth, and are going to start getting worse as KD declines and we have few picks (and those will not be good ones).

If we can kill this draft pick and get a guy who immediately contributes in a way Derrick Lively did (perhaps Yves) or a PG who can make a big impact, like a middle class man's Brunson/Haliburton (Kolek) then maybe it helps a bit.

But the main thing is the west is just too tough, our window is closing, and other teams are younger and getting better. Even a team like Memphis, who will have a high pick, with Ja, JJJ and Bane, all still improving, plus Smart, Clarke, etc, who was the #2 seed just a year ago, and Houston, who was on fire at the end of the season, even without Sengun. Then SA will get better.

OKC, Minnesota, Denver and Dallas not going anywhere soon, with young rising stars not in their prime yet, like Shai, Ant, Luka (still just entering prime which is scary), and then Denver is young with a 3 time MVP. The Pelicans are deep and young too.

It will probably be tougher to make the playoffs next year. We could literally miss without a pick. We should be firmly in the hunt for a 5-8 seed but other younger teams are better...and we were very lucky KD was healthy the whole year...that's very unlikely going forward.

This is why Ishbia or JJ conveying 4 picks without any protections was a massive fail and shows a lack of critical thinking skills by the front office!

If we had a top 10 lottery that gives you the chance to pick up a solid pick like Mikail or Cam on the low end, on the high side you get someone like Shai or Book. Just total self owns that will prevent this team from being competitive for the next 5 years.

[mkot]

Scott Foster tonight. We going back to Boston

In all seriousness, the Mavs show a lot of pride tonight playing with real desperation and the Celtics playing like they want to go back to Boston to win and celebrate with their fans. The Mavs have the best player on their side so they always have a chance but down the roster they are just totally outmatched. Boston should finish this Monday.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

I wonder what the Pels would have to give up to get Allen from Cleveland? I also wonder/ hope that it means that the Pels will focus on a center in trade and free agency and not through the draft as they along with Miami and Chicago were/are prime targets for Missi and Ware picking before us.

OKC being under more pressure to select cody Williams, or a bigger bulkier center option in Edey so they can have Holmgren operate as a versatile long 4 and let Edey bang.

[Puff]

It is hard to argue with the results of the Celtics this year but I am with Charles Barkley and I can see the Mavs making history and winning this thing in seven. The only way I see Boston closing this out is with a productive Porzingis. The Celtic are too small without him.

Unless the Celtics can shoot a high percentage from three, they are in trouble. While I am not a Mavs or Celtics fan I love the roster that Dallas put together. That is what we need to follow. Build a team that will surround the Big Three with pure hustle rebounding and defense with the ability to make open threes.

Unlike some on this board I do not think that we are that far away. Cannot wait to see what we do in the draft and free agency. Our first 6 are pretty good. If we can add a couple more productive players I think we can be pretty good next year.

Go Suns

[mkot]

Unlike some on this board I do not think that we are that far away. Cannot wait to see what we do in the draft and free agency. Our first 6 are pretty good. If we can add a couple more productive players I think we can be pretty good next year.

Go Suns

Luka is among the top tier superstar in this league, Booker are in the next tier or maybe the tier under, I certainly wouldn't argue if he is put in tier 3. This Suns team got swept by the Wolves who got gentleman swept by this Mavs who at one point down 0-3 to the Celtics. We really aren't close to the teams at the top OKC, Nuggets, TWolves, Mavs are all better. We are in the next tier of team and the gap is huge between the 2 tiers. I think the Suns need to mimic the Celtics' model of team building if Booker is the one we build around, and no I'm not saying Booker is like Brown or Tatum who are both two-way players...

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Maybe we could operate as a 3rd team facilitator for Chicago while getting back Caruso and a 2nd rounder or two? Chicago would need to get up to the 4-6 range in a trade with one of San Antonio, Detroit, or Charlotte to be in range for Clingan.

Not too sure of three team frameworks here, but it'd likely require us sending out Nurkic as he's our largest salary that we can exchange in trade for Caruso's 9.8 million salary. Especially since Allen can't be traded until October.

San Antonio/ Chicago/ Phoenix 3 team trade

San Antonio-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Phoenix 2031 1st (top 4 protected)/ 11th pick.

Chicago-
Devonte Graham/ 4th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix
Caruso/ 35th and 48th picks.

Not the best deal for us giving up Nurkic for two 2nds, BUT we could just target a center at 22 ( Missi or Edey) and then take Ajay Mitchell at 35 and Keshad Johnson at 42? Otherwise with the 22nd, 35th and 38th picks, we could take Kolek at 22, Holmes or Comche at 35, and Johnson or Bridges at 48. Then sign Ariel Hukporti ( 7'0 ft Capela) from the undrafted range.

Chicago/Phoenix/ Detroit 3 team trade

Detroit-
Nurkic/ Caruso/ 22nd pick ( Phoenix) / Phoenix 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( protected 1-14).

Chicago-
Sasser/ Metu / 5th pick (Clingan).

Phoenix-
Carter/ Craig/ 11th pick/ 53rd pick.
**( We trade the 11th and 53rd picks to New York for their 24th, 25th and 38th picks).


Chicago/ Phoenix/ Charlotte 3 team trade

Charlotte-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Carter/ 22nd pick/ PHX 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( 1- 14 protected).

Chicago-
Bertans/ Micic/ 6th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix-
Caruso/ Craig/ Richards/ 11th pick.
** ( We trade the 11th pick to either New York or Utah for):

New York-
24th, 25th, 38th picks.

Utah-
Little ( salary)/ 11th pick for Walker Kessler/ Micah Potter/ 29th and 32nd picks. Kessler becomes our more mobile starting center. Micah potter is a 6'10 245 lb budget version of Maxi Kleber ( can hit threes). So we've upgraded our frontcourt a bit and can use the 29th pick for Daron Holmes or Ulriche Comche. And the 32nd pick for Ajay Mitchell. Sign Ariel Hukporti or Joel Soriano from the undrafted range pool for backup center.

Beal/ Booker/ Batum/ KD / Kessler.
Caruso/ Allen/ O' neale/ Potter/ Richards.
Mitchell/ D Lee/ Bol Bol/ Comche/ Soriano.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

Maybe we could operate as a 3rd team facilitator for Chicago while getting back Caruso and a 2nd rounder or two? Chicago would need to get up to the 4-6 range in a trade with one of San Antonio, Detroit, or Charlotte to be in range for Clingan.

Not too sure of three team frameworks here, but it'd likely require us sending out Nurkic as he's our largest salary that we can exchange in trade for Caruso's 9.8 million salary. Especially since Allen can't be traded until October.

San Antonio/ Chicago/ Phoenix 3 team trade

San Antonio-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Phoenix 2031 1st (top 4 protected)/ 11th pick.

Chicago-
Devonte Graham/ 4th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix
Caruso/ 35th and 48th picks.

Not the best deal for us giving up Nurkic for two 2nds, BUT we could just target a center at 22 ( Missi or Edey) and then take Ajay Mitchell at 35 and Keshad Johnson at 42? Otherwise with the 22nd, 35th and 38th picks, we could take Kolek at 22, Holmes or Comche at 35, and Johnson or Bridges at 48. Then sign Ariel Hukporti ( 7'0 ft Capela) from the undrafted range.

Chicago/Phoenix/ Detroit 3 team trade

Detroit-
Nurkic/ Caruso/ 22nd pick ( Phoenix) / Phoenix 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( protected 1-14).

Chicago-
Sasser/ Metu / 5th pick (Clingan).

Phoenix-
Carter/ Craig/ 11th pick/ 53rd pick.
**( We trade the 11th and 53rd picks to New York for their 24th, 25th and 38th picks).


Chicago/ Phoenix/ Charlotte 3 team trade

Charlotte-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Carter/ 22nd pick/ PHX 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( 1- 14 protected).

Chicago-
Bertans/ Micic/ 6th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix-
Caruso/ Craig/ Richards/ 11th pick.
** ( We trade the 11th pick to either New York or Utah for):

New York-
24th, 25th, 38th picks.

Utah-
Little ( salary)/ 11th pick for Walker Kessler/ Micah Potter/ 29th and 32nd picks. Kessler becomes our more mobile starting center. Micah potter is a 6'10 245 lb budget version of Maxi Kleber ( can hit threes). So we've upgraded our frontcourt a bit and can use the 29th pick for Daron Holmes or Ulriche Comche. And the 32nd pick for Ajay Mitchell. Sign Ariel Hukporti or Joel Soriano from the undrafted range pool for backup center.

Beal/ Booker/ Batum/ KD / Kessler.
Caruso/ Allen/ O' neale/ Potter/ Richards.
Mitchell/ D Lee/ Bol Bol/ Comche/ Soriano.

Have you ever considered a 2 team trade?

[lilfishi22]

Unlike some on this board I do not think that we are that far away. Cannot wait to see what we do in the draft and free agency. Our first 6 are pretty good. If we can add a couple more productive players I think we can be pretty good next year.

Go Suns

Luka is among the top tier superstar in this league, Booker are in the next tier or maybe the tier under, I certainly wouldn't argue if he is put in tier 3. This Suns team got swept by the Wolves who got gentleman swept by this Mavs who at one point down 0-3 to the Celtics. We really aren't close to the teams at the top OKC, Nuggets, TWolves, Mavs are all better. We are in the next tier of team and the gap is huge between the 2 tiers. I think the Suns need to mimic the Celtics' model of team building if Booker is the one we build around, and no I'm not saying Booker is like Brown or Tatum who are both two-way players...

While I agree Luka and Book being at least a tier apart, I don't think the Suns getting swept then Wolves getting gentlemen swept means Mavs are then necessarily multiple tiers above us. That's not how match ups work. For example, I think Denver could've dismantled the Mavs and give the C's a really good run for their money but they ran into a team that just had the size and the players to make it really tough for the Nuggets and Jokic to execute their elite offense consistently. Match ups and peaking at the right time really goes a long way. I thought we had a good match up with the Wolves but while we were still finding our feet, they were absolutely starting to peak and they just brought it whereas we didn't.

I think we can certainly improve on multiple fronts and shore up some of those offensive issues we had and make another run. We're always going to be going into the next season with some unaddressed weaknesses but basically no team is without some big flaw (which is why only one team gets to be the champ each season) so it's just how we can reduce the impact of those weaknesses while elevating our strengths.

[King4Day]

Read on Twitter

Maybe we could operate as a 3rd team facilitator for Chicago while getting back Caruso and a 2nd rounder or two? Chicago would need to get up to the 4-6 range in a trade with one of San Antonio, Detroit, or Charlotte to be in range for Clingan.

Not too sure of three team frameworks here, but it'd likely require us sending out Nurkic as he's our largest salary that we can exchange in trade for Caruso's 9.8 million salary. Especially since Allen can't be traded until October.

San Antonio/ Chicago/ Phoenix 3 team trade

San Antonio-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Phoenix 2031 1st (top 4 protected)/ 11th pick.

Chicago-
Devonte Graham/ 4th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix
Caruso/ 35th and 48th picks.

Not the best deal for us giving up Nurkic for two 2nds, BUT we could just target a center at 22 ( Missi or Edey) and then take Ajay Mitchell at 35 and Keshad Johnson at 42? Otherwise with the 22nd, 35th and 38th picks, we could take Kolek at 22, Holmes or Comche at 35, and Johnson or Bridges at 48. Then sign Ariel Hukporti ( 7'0 ft Capela) from the undrafted range.

Chicago/Phoenix/ Detroit 3 team trade

Detroit-
Nurkic/ Caruso/ 22nd pick ( Phoenix) / Phoenix 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( protected 1-14).

Chicago-
Sasser/ Metu / 5th pick (Clingan).

Phoenix-
Carter/ Craig/ 11th pick/ 53rd pick.
**( We trade the 11th and 53rd picks to New York for their 24th, 25th and 38th picks).


Chicago/ Phoenix/ Charlotte 3 team trade

Charlotte-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Carter/ 22nd pick/ PHX 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( 1- 14 protected).

Chicago-
Bertans/ Micic/ 6th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix-
Caruso/ Craig/ Richards/ 11th pick.
** ( We trade the 11th pick to either New York or Utah for):

New York-
24th, 25th, 38th picks.

Utah-
Little ( salary)/ 11th pick for Walker Kessler/ Micah Potter/ 29th and 32nd picks. Kessler becomes our more mobile starting center. Micah potter is a 6'10 245 lb budget version of Maxi Kleber ( can hit threes). So we've upgraded our frontcourt a bit and can use the 29th pick for Daron Holmes or Ulriche Comche. And the 32nd pick for Ajay Mitchell. Sign Ariel Hukporti or Joel Soriano from the undrafted range pool for backup center.

Beal/ Booker/ Batum/ KD / Kessler.
Caruso/ Allen/ O' neale/ Potter/ Richards.
Mitchell/ D Lee/ Bol Bol/ Comche/ Soriano.

Have you ever considered a 2 team trade?

Suns can't receive more than one player back if they trade with one team. That's why we hired that guy from the Nets (likely GoK in disguise ), since he's great at 3 team deals

Though, I don't think we can get back more than one player per team. So 2 in, as long as it's one per team.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Maybe we could operate as a 3rd team facilitator for Chicago while getting back Caruso and a 2nd rounder or two? Chicago would need to get up to the 4-6 range in a trade with one of San Antonio, Detroit, or Charlotte to be in range for Clingan.

Not too sure of three team frameworks here, but it'd likely require us sending out Nurkic as he's our largest salary that we can exchange in trade for Caruso's 9.8 million salary. Especially since Allen can't be traded until October.

San Antonio/ Chicago/ Phoenix 3 team trade

San Antonio-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Phoenix 2031 1st (top 4 protected)/ 11th pick.

Chicago-
Devonte Graham/ 4th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix
Caruso/ 35th and 48th picks.

Not the best deal for us giving up Nurkic for two 2nds, BUT we could just target a center at 22 ( Missi or Edey) and then take Ajay Mitchell at 35 and Keshad Johnson at 42? Otherwise with the 22nd, 35th and 38th picks, we could take Kolek at 22, Holmes or Comche at 35, and Johnson or Bridges at 48. Then sign Ariel Hukporti ( 7'0 ft Capela) from the undrafted range.

Chicago/Phoenix/ Detroit 3 team trade

Detroit-
Nurkic/ Caruso/ 22nd pick ( Phoenix) / Phoenix 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( protected 1-14).

Chicago-
Sasser/ Metu / 5th pick (Clingan).

Phoenix-
Carter/ Craig/ 11th pick/ 53rd pick.
**( We trade the 11th and 53rd picks to New York for their 24th, 25th and 38th picks).


Chicago/ Phoenix/ Charlotte 3 team trade

Charlotte-
Nurkic/ Terry/ Carter/ 22nd pick/ PHX 2031 1st/ 25' POR 1st ( 1- 14 protected).

Chicago-
Bertans/ Micic/ 6th pick ( Clingan).


Phoenix-
Caruso/ Craig/ Richards/ 11th pick.
** ( We trade the 11th pick to either New York or Utah for):

New York-
24th, 25th, 38th picks.

Utah-
Little ( salary)/ 11th pick for Walker Kessler/ Micah Potter/ 29th and 32nd picks. Kessler becomes our more mobile starting center. Micah potter is a 6'10 245 lb budget version of Maxi Kleber ( can hit threes). So we've upgraded our frontcourt a bit and can use the 29th pick for Daron Holmes or Ulriche Comche. And the 32nd pick for Ajay Mitchell. Sign Ariel Hukporti or Joel Soriano from the undrafted range pool for backup center.

Beal/ Booker/ Batum/ KD / Kessler.
Caruso/ Allen/ O' neale/ Potter/ Richards.
Mitchell/ D Lee/ Bol Bol/ Comche/ Soriano.

Have you ever considered a 2 team trade?

Suns can't receive more than one player back if they trade with one team. That's why we hired that guy from the Nets (likely GoK in disguise ), since he's great at 3 team deals

Though, I don't think we can get back more than one player per team. So 2 in, as long as it's one per team.

My bad man!
I thought that as long as the salaries incoming were "dollar for dollar or less than the salary we'd be sending out, then we could get back a couple of players cumulatively. Like if sending out 18 million in salary from Nurkic, as long as we got back say Caruso (9.8 million) and Craig ( 2,8 million) would be under Nurkics' 18 million salary at 12.6 million. I may be wrong on this, but my understanding was/is that as a 2nd apron team, it's a "dollar for dollar" matching of salaries or a lesser amount coming back. But not sure that we can't receive multiple players back as long as it doesn't exceed the outgoing salary from us, WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT we can't aggregate salaries and another 2nd apron team can't either, BUT if the team/teams we're trading with are not 2nd apron teams, then they can absorb our salary or send back cumulative salaries UP TO the 18 million we're sending out, but not a dollar more. I hope that's correct and makes sense somewhat?

[dremill24]

There are many considerations that must be taken into account based on the trade partner(s), but on principle, the Suns (independent of the trade partner) are allowed to receive more than one player in a trade, provided it meets all other applicable rules.

[mkot]

While I agree Luka and Book being at least a tier apart, I don't think the Suns getting swept then Wolves getting gentlemen swept means Mavs are then necessarily multiple tiers above us. That's not how match ups work. For example, I think Denver could've dismantled the Mavs and give the C's a really good run for their money but they ran into a team that just had the size and the players to make it really tough for the Nuggets and Jokic to execute their elite offense consistently. Match ups and peaking at the right time really goes a long way. I thought we had a good match up with the Wolves but while we were still finding our feet, they were absolutely starting to peak and they just brought it whereas we didn't.

I meant we are a tier below those top teams but the gap is huge IMO.

The Wolves definitely peaked at the right time, I still think Denver is the better team. They lost G7 because Malone only played 6 guys running Jokić and a already limping Murray to the ground. I was pretty high on the Wolves before the playoff and after our series, but after what I saw in the Denver series then in the Mavs series, I think they are less then what they showed. Denver actually had the blue print but they don't have a consistent secondary guy as a release point to Murray, and the Mavs have Kyrie and even Exum to help on that part. We see when their ball pressure doesn't work, they really don't have plan B.

Anyway I don't want to make this long but my point is, as it stands, Nuggets, Mavs, Wolves are on a tier of their own. OKC is close but I think they are clearly below the above 3 teams and like you said, matchup is a thing and teams like the Lakers can give them problems. After OKC it's the rest of the above .500 team in the West and I like our chance against any team in this tier maybe besides the Lakers. The only way I see us break through and have a shot at the top 4 teams above is if we get a starter caliber PG or Wing that can handle the ball and set guys up. The fact that James Jones and Matt Ishbia came out and said we don't really need one give me 0 hope at climbing to the top.

[garrick]

While I agree Luka and Book being at least a tier apart, I don't think the Suns getting swept then Wolves getting gentlemen swept means Mavs are then necessarily multiple tiers above us. That's not how match ups work. For example, I think Denver could've dismantled the Mavs and give the C's a really good run for their money but they ran into a team that just had the size and the players to make it really tough for the Nuggets and Jokic to execute their elite offense consistently. Match ups and peaking at the right time really goes a long way. I thought we had a good match up with the Wolves but while we were still finding our feet, they were absolutely starting to peak and they just brought it whereas we didn't.

I meant we are a tier below those top teams but the gap is huge IMO.

The Wolves definitely peaked at the right time, I still think Denver is the better team. They lost G7 because Malone only played 6 guys running Jokić and a already limping Murray to the ground. I was pretty high on the Wolves before the playoff and after our series, but after what I saw in the Denver series then in the Mavs series, I think they are less then what they showed. Denver actually had the blue print, but they don't have a consistent secondary guy as a release point to Murray, and the Mavs have Kyrie and even Exum to help on that part. We see when their ball pressure doesn't work, they really don't have plan B.

Anyway I don't want to make this long but my point is, as it stands, Nuggets, Mavs, Wolves are on a tier of their own. OKC is close but I think they are clearly below the above 3 teams and like you said, match up is a thing and teams like the Lakers can give them problems. After OKC it's the rest of the .500 team in the West and I like our chance against any team in this tier maybe besides the Lakers. The only way I see them break through and have a shot at the top 4 teams above us is if we get a starter caliber PG or Wing that can handle the ball and set guys up. The fact that James Jones and Matt Ishbia came out and said we don't really need one give me 0 hope at climbing to the top.

Agreed.

I think the standings this season were mostly quite a reflection of the various playoff teams actual talent level at least in the West.

I would say 1-3 are Denver, OKC and Dallas, Wolves are #4 and then for 5-8 it's the rest of the teams which we unfortunately fall into and we were very close to even missing the playoffs altogether had Beal not stepped up for the final few games to close out the season.

It is going to be very hard to improve his roster without draft picks, if you look at the recent trades that have made the Mavs and Celtics contenders most of the trades involved 1st round draft picks which we obviously are in short supply of.

Even having 2nd round picks would have been immensely helpful but it looks like the next time we have one is in 2028 and it seems like we can't just buy picks like in the old days, with better scouting it seems like it's a lot easier to find real talent in the 2nd round compared to the old days when it was a rarity to find anyone in the 2nd round that were actually any good.