ORL/POR

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ORL/POR 

Post#1 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:40 pm

ORL sends: Jonathan Isaac, ORL 25 srp & #18
POR sends: Anfernee Simons, #14 & #34

On RealGM, both fanbases will hate this on the surface. I know - Isaac is disabled. I know - Simons is the worst defender in the history of the NBA and is strictly empty stats, but consider:

Selling high on Isaac, while he's ambulatory, has to at least be considered by ORL - despite his awesome impact. More and more, I envision Anthony Black as ORL's new Isaac - he's obviously not as long, but he's a defensive whirlwind, with enough length to cover 1-some 4's. Remember that Isaac does most of his damage on the perimeter. AB has much more offensive upside than Isaac but hasn't shown PG skills (yet?) - in the meantime, he can get more minutes and show more offense by hitting open 3's, cutting, and moving the ball. They're not the same player, but there is some overlap. Isaac's injury history makes POR fans cringe, but he is a perfect PF next to offense-only Ayton and he was terrific this season, with NO setbacks - POR should be seeing how to maximize Ayton's strengths by featuring him offensively and helping him on the other end. POR has pick #7 to pick up more shooting to replace Simons' (Knecht?), or just go BPA. I'm reluctant to include #18, but Isaac's contract status and injury history have to weigh into the valuation. POR has two srps, so giving up #34 is relatively painless. Saving $9m in salary is also significant to POR and, worst case, Isaac is an expiring deal.

ORL gets the shooter/scorer they need AND, imo, show confidence in AB's development but recognize that, for now at least, his defense is way ahead of his offensive creation. Putting him in the Jingles spot might give him the ability to shine in a lot of ways. Moving from #18 to #14 gives ORL more certainty of getting a keeper and #34 provides one of the useful upperclassmen that might contribute right away...I like Schierman here, if he's available. When the dust settles, I think he's this year's Podzmieski...a high-floor, high BBIQ, versatile, competitor. The entire trade results in a net usage of $ 9m, so ORL's summer is not done. Depending on which FA's they renounce, they should still have $3m+ to work with, if they choose.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#2 » by Myth » Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:47 pm

I don’t want Isaacs, which makes the rest of this really difficult to swallow. This is a big swing in the opposite direction of past discussions of using Simons to get more picks, by using him to downgrade picks.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#3 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:49 pm

I don't have Isaac worth more than Simons. So I have the incentives going the wrong way. I also have Portland as the wrong team for taking on Isaac. A team gambling on him for a year should be a team going places. I'd find a 3rd team.

Even more than that I like Orlando just trading Anthony/incentive for Simons. Portland ducks tax, gets incentives, opens up opportunity to see what they have in Scoot and Sharpe. Orlando keeps Isaac because if healthy he can be a major piece for them. And they have plenty of assets for Simons.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#4 » by nate33 » Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:53 pm

This trade proposal has a wildly inaccurate valuation of Isaac.

Isaac made a massive leap this year from "deadweight contract" to "useful role player", which is nice. But given his contract of $17M and his inability to play more than 20 minutes a game with any regularity, I'd say he is still a negative value contract. He certainly isn't worth a starter and two lotto picks.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#5 » by Village Idiot » Sat Jun 15, 2024 3:41 pm

I agree with the gents above me in the thread. Value-wise and directionally this is a no-go for Portland.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#6 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:08 pm

nate33 wrote:This trade proposal has a wildly inaccurate valuation of Isaac.

Isaac made a massive leap this year from "deadweight contract" to "useful role player", which is nice. But given his contract of $17M and his inability to play more than 20 minutes a game with any regularity, I'd say he is still a negative value contract. He certainly isn't worth a starter and two lotto picks.



Not sure where you saw the "starter and 2 Lotto picks"...ORL sends 18 and gets 14 - that's not a big jump, especially this year, and trades next year's srp for POR's srp this year (figuring they already have 2 other frps & another srp). I agree Simons is a starter. It's not far off from Simons for Isaac with very little else beyond a small jump up in a weak draft.

I also agree that Isaac was, when injured, a "deadweight contract" but he's far more than a useful role player when he's playing. If you watch any of his games, it's difficult to diminish his defensive impact - he's everywhere. He's the kind of player that could lead the league in blocks, deflections, or steals...or all of the above. The fallback, of course, is "yeah, if he's not on crutches". That's the risk, but he was great last year, ORL is notoriously patient with rehab and his minute limitations were precautionary...even at 20 mpg, he's a big difference-maker. POR is probably stuck with Ayton, which is only a bad thing if you want defense from your 7' monster in the middle - Isaac, I figure, is the way to salvage that commitment...the idea of POR drafting a defensive-minded Center with their high lottery pick, while Ayton eats up $35m per, is hard to stomach. Simons is odd man out with Scoot & Sharpe, I just figured the fit worked.

this is why I started with "both sides will hate this" :lol: I've been advocating for Simons for years but ORL board, maybe correctly, points out that he'll constantly be targeted and has ZERO interest or aptitude for defense and his 5.5 apg are almost accidental. I don't buy that either.

Both have concerns, both could be perfect fits...I think, when healthy, Isaac is one of the most impactful guys in the league. I would only consider giving him up because ORL has other exceptional defensive players and an elite defensive coach and for the fact that Isaac's contract will be up next summer - right when Paolo is signing his Max rookie extension and Franz & Suggs' rookie extensions hit the ledger. Isaac will either be waived/injured/unplayable or up for a significant and well-deserved raise...it's certainly a bet, but very high upside bet if he and Ayton find equilibrium and your young guards wake up.

I'd MUCH prefer to send Cole and a pick (I think Chuck said too) thinking that an offensive spark off the bench at $13m makes a lot more sense than Simons (effectively in the same role when Sharpe is healthy) for a rebuilding but over-budget POR team. Is Simons better than Cole?-of course, but by how much? When POR starts to turn the corner, Simons will be leaving or asking for a big raise based on his empty stats in POR. I have no illusions about Simons putting ORL on his back and continuing to score 25ppg...he'd settle into the appropriate role in the offensive hierarchy and try to be better at defense.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#7 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:11 pm

Myth wrote:I don’t want Isaacs, which makes the rest of this really difficult to swallow. This is a big swing in the opposite direction of past discussions of using Simons to get more picks, by using him to downgrade picks.


Simons' critics on ORL board seem to always call him Simmons...is "Isaacs" some kind of passive-aggressive dismissal or spell check ? :lol:
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#8 » by Wizenheimer » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 pm

wut?

the Blazers give up the best player, drop 4 slots in the draft + give up the 34th pick for a...2nd round pick? and a player who over the last 4 seasons has played in 69 games, missed 249 games, and only averaged 15 minutes in the few games he was able to play

that's nuts.

At minimum, the 14th shouldn't even be part of this equation (and neither should the 34th). Simons has his flaws, but the things he does well are things that Orlando needs, and they shouldn't be, and won't be, getting him along with extra assets for damaged goods like Issac
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#9 » by Myth » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:13 pm

Skybox wrote:
Myth wrote:I don’t want Isaacs, which makes the rest of this really difficult to swallow. This is a big swing in the opposite direction of past discussions of using Simons to get more picks, by using him to downgrade picks.


Simons' critics on ORL board seem to always call him Simmons...is "Isaacs" some kind of passive-aggressive dismissal or spell check ? :lol:

Lol, I guess it shows how little I have looked into him as a Blazers target.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#10 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:15 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:wut?

the Blazers give up the best player, drop 4 slots in the draft + give up the 34th pick for a...2nd round pick? and a player who over the last 4 seasons has played in 69 games, missed 249 games, and only averaged 15 minutes in the few games he was able to play

that's nuts.

At minimum, the 14th shouldn't even be part of this equation (and neither should the 34th). Simons has his flaws, but the things he does well are things that Orlando needs, and they shouldn't be, and won't be, getting him along with extra assets for damaged goods like Issac


Looking at ORL, what, in your opinion, would you think is a fair package for Simons? (assuming you can understand why keeping him in POR isn't that great a plan).
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#11 » by JRoy » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:29 pm

Hard pass for POR.

The idea of JI and RW3 sitting out the season with injuries is just too much.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#12 » by Myth » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:52 pm

Skybox wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:wut?

the Blazers give up the best player, drop 4 slots in the draft + give up the 34th pick for a...2nd round pick? and a player who over the last 4 seasons has played in 69 games, missed 249 games, and only averaged 15 minutes in the few games he was able to play

that's nuts.

At minimum, the 14th shouldn't even be part of this equation (and neither should the 34th). Simons has his flaws, but the things he does well are things that Orlando needs, and they shouldn't be, and won't be, getting him along with extra assets for damaged goods like Issac


Looking at ORL, what, in your opinion, would you think is a fair package for Simons? (assuming you can understand why keeping him in POR isn't that great a plan).

I’m fully onboard Black, 18, and Denver pick for Simons. I could potentially settle for Cole instead of Black.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#13 » by Wizenheimer » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:57 pm

Skybox wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:wut?

the Blazers give up the best player, drop 4 slots in the draft + give up the 34th pick for a...2nd round pick? and a player who over the last 4 seasons has played in 69 games, missed 249 games, and only averaged 15 minutes in the few games he was able to play

that's nuts.

At minimum, the 14th shouldn't even be part of this equation (and neither should the 34th). Simons has his flaws, but the things he does well are things that Orlando needs, and they shouldn't be, and won't be, getting him along with extra assets for damaged goods like Issac


Looking at ORL, what, in your opinion, would you think is a fair package for Simons? (assuming you can understand why keeping him in POR isn't that great a plan).


keep in mind, I have a lower opinion of Simons than a lot of Blazer fans. I've detailed his flaws before. And there certainly has been a lot of chatter about Simons-->Orlando. Whether or not that interest extends to the Magic F.O. I don't know. I do know, as I said above that the things Simons does well are things that would help the Magic quite a bit

I've looked at an Orlando destination for Simons before. The biggest thing I've noticed is that starting July 1 Orlando could hypothetically have over 30M in cap-space; but that depends on what happens with Fultz. But theoretically, Orlando could have enough room to make an unbalanced trade. How much room I'm not sure

*Simons for Ingles + 18 + 2025 Denver/Orlando 1st (more favorable/less favorable? or 2nds) (that won't be enough for Portland most likely and other Blazer fans will howl)

* Simons for Black + 18 (yeah, I know you'll nix that and Orlando might not have enough space)

* Simons + Timelord + Jaylin Williams/Aaron Wiggins ---> Orlando for WCJ + 18 + Ingles/Issac
- WCJ + 18 ---> OKC for Wiggins/Williams + 12
- 12 + Issac/Ingles to Portland for Simons

(I was trying to work all the permutations of that one without knowing how much Orlando or OKC fans would like it, or hate it. The Blazers could throw #34 into the mix as well as Thybulle. Both Orlando and OKC could have major cap-space in July so an delayed unbalanced 3-way could work. Further, a Holmgren/WCJ rotation/combo could work pretty well in OKC and they sure have a ton of future picks they could add for that kind of upgrade. Probably too many moving parts to be realistic)

bottom line is if Orlando wants to get Simons they will have to add more skin in the game than the trade in the OP
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#14 » by Wizenheimer » Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:59 pm

Myth wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:wut?

the Blazers give up the best player, drop 4 slots in the draft + give up the 34th pick for a...2nd round pick? and a player who over the last 4 seasons has played in 69 games, missed 249 games, and only averaged 15 minutes in the few games he was able to play

that's nuts.

At minimum, the 14th shouldn't even be part of this equation (and neither should the 34th). Simons has his flaws, but the things he does well are things that Orlando needs, and they shouldn't be, and won't be, getting him along with extra assets for damaged goods like Issac


Looking at ORL, what, in your opinion, would you think is a fair package for Simons? (assuming you can understand why keeping him in POR isn't that great a plan).

I’m fully onboard Black, 18, and Denver pick for Simons. I could potentially settle for Cole instead of Black.


I don't think Cole would fit in Portland and he has a long contract...too long for Portland. Rather just get Ingles or Issac and waive them, but I just won't think that will be enough for the Blazer FO or most Blazer fans
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#15 » by AaronB » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:04 pm

Hate this trade for both teams.

Isaac is a difference-maker. Admittedly, injured way too much, but difference makers are very hard to come by for teams wanting to make an impact in the playoffs, which is not the Blazers.

Blazers need to retool with young warm bodies that can play for a reasonable price (which neither Isaac nor Simons qualify).

Simons is also a difference-maker, but in the wrong direction.

Pretty sure the Blazers had a worse record with him on the floor than off up until their last push for lottery balls.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#16 » by Myth » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:36 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
Myth wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Looking at ORL, what, in your opinion, would you think is a fair package for Simons? (assuming you can understand why keeping him in POR isn't that great a plan).

I’m fully onboard Black, 18, and Denver pick for Simons. I could potentially settle for Cole instead of Black.


I don't think Cole would fit in Portland and he has a long contract...too long for Portland. Rather just get Ingles or Issac and waive them, but I just won't think that will be enough for the Blazer FO or most Blazer fans

Cole isn’t a great fit, but he is a cheaper, lesser version of Simons that requires less minutes than Simons and in this trade is coming with additional assets. With Simons and hopefully Brogdon traded, Cole would be a reasonable short term backup until we can hopefully trade him later for a different team looking for a bench scoring punch. But the main reason for including him was for Orlando, such that if they get Simons, they probably don’t want to be paying Cole to be a bit redundant with Simons.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#17 » by DiegoChara » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:38 pm

I continue to believe that Simons might end up a passable defender. He has + to ++ physical attributes. He doesn’t have a reputation as being lazy or selfish.

There’s no denying he’s been awful so far, but I think the context of the team hasn’t done him any favors. He’s never been in an environment where there was a culture of defense
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#18 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:50 pm

DiegoChara wrote:I continue to believe that Simons might end up a passable defender. He has + to ++ physical attributes. He doesn’t have a reputation as being lazy or selfish.

There’s no denying he’s been awful so far, but I think the context of the team hasn’t done him any favors. He’s never been in an environment where there was a culture of defense


Agree…and I think Isaac will be healthy :D
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#19 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:01 pm

I don't think any two teams can or will agree on Isaac's value. I hope he can be a success story for Orlando, they deserve to reap the rewards of him getting back to being a useful piece. There are some off court issues that I think make Portland a particularly awkward place (we don't do well with folks who are outspoken on their religious beliefs and what rights they think marginalized groups should or should not have) but that is kind of besides the point and secondary to us already having a player in Williams III we are hoping will stay healthy and be a defensive piece for us.

Portland is probably too greedy asking for Black so I think Cole and a couple non-lottery picks is appropriate for both sides. We might look for a 3rd team who values Cole more than we do but assuming Brogdon is also moved at some point this season and we don't draft another point guard having a backup is not the end of the world.

Portland has a lot of work to do selling off our vets for the best price possible. I don't think we should be looking for firesale any of them just to clear them off the books because they are fine players who could help the right team, but we do gotta jump on opportunities as they arise.
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Re: ORL/POR 

Post#20 » by Residual-Heat » Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:07 pm

Not trading Isaac and dont care to move up in this draft. Im sure the Blazers would rather get picks over Isaac and the Magic would rather do the same.

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