Pels aiming for Allen

[BuddyBuckets]

Just wondering if this one passed CBA technicalities and if Cavs fans are not viscerally triggered by it....

Pels get - Jarrett Allen & Caris LeVert
Cavs get - Brandon Ingram, EJ Liddell, '24 Pels 1st & '26 Pels first.

Salaries are very close, question becomes is the draft compensation valuable to Cleveland? They can also follow on from this by moving Garland for a PF/C to work alongside Mobley. Pels covet a rim protector and Allen can fit the bill. LeVert would be a valuable bench wing while Trey Murphy gets a permanent starter role.

Mitchell/Straus/Ingram/(garland trade return)/Mobley

CJ/Herb/Murphy III/Zion/Allen

[Skybox]

Allen would be great in NOLA…I don’t think NOLA needs to add the picks, provided that Ingram agrees to an extension that CLE can stomach. I’m not a huge fan of Ingram, but I think his value as a scorer is significant…I guess the contract uncertainty is the negative…Allen is on a very fair deal.

[Whole Truth]

NO's let go in free agency a C that averaged 15/10/2 on 15m value, who was a top 2 performer in team injuries, accounting for around 15-20 of the 49 wins as a top 2 performer, when undermanned.

Only to trade the #2 option, who also carries the team in Zion's absence for a defensive fit at C. So you're effectively trading out the 2 players that carry the team in considerable injuries for Allen. Better pray for Zion's health because you will end up with a lotto team & an expiring Allen.

This idea is a slow train wreck & NO's fans are about to find out just how good Jonas was.

The issue with NO's/Zion, is & has always been offensive overlap & CJ's perimeter defense.

NO's fans - Jonas doesn't fit with Zion, 2 man pairing of starters Jonas +5, the highest.
NO's fans - BI & Zion don't fit, 100 minutes with Daniels defense over CJ +20 net rating.
NO's fans - CJ is an ideal spacing fit, CJ shot 42% on volume, Net 0 rating with Zion with a lot of their minutes together against bench units. Why? they're a poor defensive pairing & CJ's 45% usage dominates Zion's 60% usage for poor offensive overlap & hierarchy as CJ led the team in shots on most nights with Zion & or BI on court. That's on Green too,

[jbk1234]

I think Ingram's contract expectations are the entire deal hear. Either they're flexible and the Cavs will be interested, or they're inflexible and they won't be. The expectation is that the Cavs offer Mobley that 25% extension this summer and he takes it. The Cavs will be well over the cap once thst kicks in, and they can't put themselves on the position where Ingram walks for nothing or they max him as well.

[Whole Truth]

Perimeter defense, ball pressure, is directly related to rim protection. CJ's perimeter defense combined with Jonas slow feet led to poor rim protection.

As mentioned with Daniels over CJ. Stls, blks & rim protection all improved in his 10 games started.

Targeting Allen's rim protection is directly related to compensating CJ as Allen is a less than ideal offensive fit with ZIon. Both Nance & Jonas punished teams for leaving them open. Allen doesn't even attempt 3's. Adams full circle, instead of pick value, you're giving up your 2nd best player. lol

I hope if NO's do this, they keep starting CJ, I want to be entertained.

[Texas Chuck]

Almost no players in the entire league account for 15-20 victories. JV absolutely did not. If that is your expectation from any new center, you will be disappointed unless you get Embiid or Jokic, and you are not getting Embiid or Jokic.

[Whole Truth]

Almost no players in the entire league account for 15-20 victories. JV absolutely did not. If that is your expectation from any new center, you will be disappointed unless you get Embiid or Jokic, and you are not getting Embiid or Jokic.

Not solely, I stated in these wins he's a top 2 offensive performer with either ZIon or BI. They don't win these games without his production. I can list them.

I did a draft study years ago. Superstars in the top of the draft impact their lotto teams by roughly 20 wins.

[Texas Chuck]

Almost no players in the entire league account for 15-20 victories. JV absolutely did not. If that is your expectation from any new center, you will be disappointed unless you get Embiid or Jokic, and you are not getting Embiid or Jokic.

Not solely, I stated in these wins he's a top 2 offensive performer with either ZIon or BI. They don't win these games without his production. I can list them.

Don't.

Other players would score/rebound in his absence, all that production doesn't just disappear if he doesn't play. They likely still win most of those games without him and probably win some they lost with him playing. Most players of his level account for 1 or 2 wins over the course of a season. Nothing approaching 20.

[Whole Truth]

Almost no players in the entire league account for 15-20 victories. JV absolutely did not. If that is your expectation from any new center, you will be disappointed unless you get Embiid or Jokic, and you are not getting Embiid or Jokic.

Not solely, I stated in these wins he's a top 2 offensive performer with either ZIon or BI. They don't win these games without his production. I can list them.

Don't.

Other players would score/rebound in his absence, all that production doesn't just disappear if he doesn't play. They likely still win most of those games without him and probably win some they lost with him playing. Most players of his level account for 1 or 2 wins over the course of a season. Nothing approaching 20.

Underrating his impact if you think he accounted for 1-2 wins. NO's can't rebound without Jonas. NO's built the team for point Zion. There's no real playmaking guard on roster that controls pace. Without Jonas post gravity in Zion's absence I may be wrong in my estimation but they lose a lot more of those wins than you'd think.

[Texas Chuck]

if he was worth 15 wins he'd be a max player. Let it go mate. Go read some theory on this. Much better players then him aren't worth 20 wins.

[Whole Truth]

if he was worth 15 wins he'd be a max player. Let it go mate. Go read some theory on this. Much better players then him aren't worth 20 wins.

I admit my estimation is probably off but so is yours. Jonas averages 15/10/2 in 25 not 35 minutes on 12 APG, not 18. He's more impactful than you think.

I'm done there.

[Colbinii]

The Pelicans are filled with Michael Jordan-level impact players yet get swept by Green Bean Chet Holmgren and the Oklahoma City Thunderp in the 1st round.

Make it make sense.

[Whole Truth]

The Pelicans are filled with Michael Jordan-level impact players yet get swept by Green Bean Chet Holmgren and the Oklahoma City Thunderp in the 1st round.

Make it make sense.

My mistake was listing the amount of games Jonas was a top 2 performer in injuries. It was not meant to be a single player impact but a key ingredient.

Pels do this trade, I'd drop money on them to miss the PO's

[Colbinii]

if he was worth 15 wins he'd be a max player. Let it go mate. Go read some theory on this. Much better players then him aren't worth 20 wins.

I admit my estimation is probably off but so is yours. Jonas averages 15/10/2 in 25 not 35 minutes on 12 APG, not 18. He's more impactful than you think.

I'm done there.

I actually think some of JV's offense gets underrated. He ranked in the 89th percentile in Offensive EPM and given his skill-set [Offensive Rebounding, Efficienct Post-Offense, Unorthodox but makable 3P Shot], it makes sense.

The issue when defining his impact sort of crumbles due to multiple factors.

1) Inability to defend the rim at a high level for a Center
2) Inability to be an offensive playmaker/passing hub as a Center
3) Inability to routinely make the 3P SHot
4) Inability to switch onto wings
5) Inability to defend the P&R

Due to this, he is both relegated to lower minutes [24 MPG in the Regular Season, higher-impact Centers play 30-33 MPG, that's 33% more minutes]. Jonas is also a weakness in a playoff series as the opposing team has a lot of different avenue's to exploit JV and create mismatches and 4v3 opportunities offensively, which we saw OKC do regularly in their series.

I think JV is an excellent minutes eating center for a mediocre or bad team, could make sense as a back-up Center for a team like OKC where he could play more in the Regular Season but come post-season he is only used in certain matchups.

[Colbinii]

The Pelicans are filled with Michael Jordan-level impact players yet get swept by Green Bean Chet Holmgren and the Oklahoma City Thunderp in the 1st round.

Make it make sense.

My mistake was listing the amount of games Jonas was a top 2 performer in injuries. It was not meant to be a single player impact but a key ingredient.

Pels do this trade, I'd drop money on them to miss the PO's

Yeah, Pels could very likely miss the PO with Jonas Valanciunas as Center in 2024-2025 as well. What's the point?

The West is stacked and the Pels barely made the post-season this year.

[Whole Truth]

if he was worth 15 wins he'd be a max player. Let it go mate. Go read some theory on this. Much better players then him aren't worth 20 wins.

I admit my estimation is probably off but so is yours. Jonas averages 15/10/2 in 25 not 35 minutes on 12 APG, not 18. He's more impactful than you think.

I'm done there.

I actually think some of JV's offense gets underrated. He ranked in the 89th percentile in Offensive EPM and given his skill-set [Offensive Rebounding, Efficienct Post-Offense, Unorthodox but makable 3P Shot], it makes sense.

The issue when defining his impact sort of crumbles due to multiple factors.

1) Inability to defend the rim at a high level for a Center
2) Inability to be an offensive playmaker/passing hub as a Center
3) Inability to routinely make the 3P SHot
4) Inability to switch onto wings
5) Inability to defend the P&R

Due to this, he is both relegated to lower minutes [24 MPG in the Regular Season, higher-impact Centers play 30-33 MPG, that's 33% more minutes]. Jonas is also a weakness in a playoff series as the opposing team has a lot of different avenue's to exploit JV and create mismatches and 4v3 opportunities offensively, which we saw OKC do regularly in their series.

I think JV is an excellent minutes eating center for a mediocre or bad team, could make sense as a back-up Center for a team like OKC where he could play more in the Regular Season but come post-season he is only used in certain matchups.

Most slow footed big men play drop coverage. Jonas has played with Derozan in Toronto, Ja in Memphis & CJ in NO's. Some of the worse defensive guards in the league.

There's a reason I was against NO's trading for CJ & reason Daniels elite defense had the rotation with Jonas starting, +20.

OKC hunted CJ more than anyone & as a result Jonas got run. There's a lot of truth to your statement & why he shares minutes but there's also truth to usage & compensation affecting production.

Jonas started in Torotno, Memphis, NO's & all 3 teams managed a top 5 defense because of his offensive efficiency & rebounding. it's not a coincidence

[Whole Truth]

The Pelicans are filled with Michael Jordan-level impact players yet get swept by Green Bean Chet Holmgren and the Oklahoma City Thunderp in the 1st round.

Make it make sense.

My mistake was listing the amount of games Jonas was a top 2 performer in injuries. It was not meant to be a single player impact but a key ingredient.

Pels do this trade, I'd drop money on them to miss the PO's

Yeah, Pels could very likely miss the PO with Jonas Valanciunas as Center in 2024-2025 as well. What's the point?

The West is stacked and the Pels barely made the post-season this year.

Jonas was drafted to a 30 win Raptors team, traded to a 22 win Memphis team in place of Gasol, a non PO team in NO's & has only missed the PO's 2yrs of 13 starting by play in.

All 3 managed a top 5 defense.

1 PO appearance in Memphis with 3J missing the entire year.
1 PO appearance in NO's with Zion missing the entire year.

He's more impactful than people think.

[PistolPeteJR]

if he was worth 15 wins he'd be a max player. Let it go mate. Go read some theory on this. Much better players then him aren't worth 20 wins.

I admit my estimation is probably off but so is yours. Jonas averages 15/10/2 in 25 not 35 minutes on 12 APG, not 18. He's more impactful than you think.

I'm done there.

There's a reason he doesn't play 35mpg.

[Whole Truth]

if he was worth 15 wins he'd be a max player. Let it go mate. Go read some theory on this. Much better players then him aren't worth 20 wins.

I admit my estimation is probably off but so is yours. Jonas averages 15/10/2 in 25 not 35 minutes on 12 APG, not 18. He's more impactful than you think.

I'm done there.

There's a reason he doesn't play 35mpg.

He's match up dominant.

[PistolPeteJR]

I admit my estimation is probably off but so is yours. Jonas averages 15/10/2 in 25 not 35 minutes on 12 APG, not 18. He's more impactful than you think.

I'm done there.

There's a reason he doesn't play 35mpg.

He's match up dominant.

That's one reason, not the only one.

But let's focus on that reason alone: if he's matchup dominant, that means he's got limited value. And you still think he's good for 20 wins impact-wise?