Pels aiming for Allen

[Whole Truth]

I mean, let's say that they made the Ingram/Miller trade (and this assumes the Hornets agree of which I'm skeptical). As nice as Miller looked in a developmental setting, he would not have replaced Ingram's production in the regular season. He couldn't have started in the playoffs. The Pelicans wouldn't have made the play-in last season and the odds of them making the playoffs this season would still be heavily dependent upon Zion's health.

Either get all the way in or all the way out IMO. Be good enough to make the playoffs, even if Zion misses regular season games, and pray Zion can be healthy for the playoffs, or, move Zion and reset.

All hypotheticals & assumptions geared to perception.

Charlotte accepting BI for Miller is irrelevant. The point was about directional choice, I don't know if Hawks would accept trading Sarr either but it's the same approach & goal of a soft reset. As mentioned, if my target last year was Scoot instead of Miller, the approach would have had an unfavorable result because every decision has it's own risk.

Pelicans would have had a lotto pick, a cost controlled Miller over BI's 50m extension & not been swept because Zion got injured. Instead you self among other posters telling me about BI's contract risk. Guess what I was trying to avoid last year when BI held more value coming off the Suns PO run.

My modus operandi is don't force things, progress is made in a collection of good decisions not rash ones.

Success & failure exists in every decision made. Pushing all in with Allen guarantees what?

[PistolPeteJR]

I know your trying to say that everyone contributed & they obviously do but Jonas has filled a bigger role in injuries than a normal role player would, is that clearer ?

If by "clearer" you mean that's what you're saying, yes, it's clear.
If by "clearer" you mean that it's now clear to me why he's worth 15-20 wins, absolutely not. I don't think you'll convince anyone at all that he's worth that much with any lens.

I already clarified that the mention of 15-20 wins was to reference he was a top 2 performer in those injury games. I conceded I was wrong to reference it the way I did. As it came off he was solely responsible for those 15-20 wins. When I was more trying to say he had a big impact in them.

You good now.

Sure, he had some impact. Big impact? Top-2? Not so sure I agree, but at least there's a potential debate to be had here haha.

[BuddyBuckets]

Interesting debate in the thread, thanks for the discussion.

I know from watching quite a lot of Pels games how valuable Jonas is, especially his ability to be a 'big 3' type offensive presence whenever Zion or Ingram is out.

Even though BI had a horrible series against OKC I don't forget how impactful he is and how consistent he is overall. Obviously moving BI and Jonas creates a hole to fill on offense and LeVert as a bench spark doesn't cut it and Allen's low post game isn't enough. But with a healthy rotation of useful scorers:

Herb is growing offensively, as is Trey Murphy. Dyson can and should be more aggressive offensively, Hawkins is streaky now but could be a real offensive weapon in time....

There are pieces that, along with CJ, could keep the win column ticking along even if Zion is out for periods of time.

Allen/Murphy III/Herb/LeVert/CJ
Nance/Naji/Dyson/Hawkins/Jose

It feels light for star power but it's a squad that can still score 115 points a night.

[Whole Truth]

If by "clearer" you mean that's what you're saying, yes, it's clear.
If by "clearer" you mean that it's now clear to me why he's worth 15-20 wins, absolutely not. I don't think you'll convince anyone at all that he's worth that much with any lens.

I already clarified that the mention of 15-20 wins was to reference he was a top 2 performer in those injury games. I conceded I was wrong to reference it the way I did. As it came off he was solely responsible for those 15-20 wins. When I was more trying to say he had a big impact in them.

You good now.

Sure, he had some impact. Big impact? Top-2? Not so sure I agree, but at least there's a potential debate to be had here haha.

I don't expect anyone to capitulate to my opinion.

I kind of want this trade to go through.

[jbk1234]

I mean, let's say that they made the Ingram/Miller trade (and this assumes the Hornets agree of which I'm skeptical). As nice as Miller looked in a developmental setting, he would not have replaced Ingram's production in the regular season. He couldn't have started in the playoffs. The Pelicans wouldn't have made the play-in last season and the odds of them making the playoffs this season would still be heavily dependent upon Zion's health.

Either get all the way in or all the way out IMO. Be good enough to make the playoffs, even if Zion misses regular season games, and pray Zion can be healthy for the playoffs, or, move Zion and reset.

All hypotheticals & assumptions geared to perception.

Charlotte accepting BI for Miller is irrelevant. The point was about directional choice, I don't know if Hawks would accept trading Sarr either but it's the same approach & goal of a soft reset. As mentioned, if my target last year was Scoot instead of Miller, the approach would have had an unfavorable result because every decision has it's own risk.

Pelicans would have had a lotto pick, a cost controlled Miller over BI's 50m extension & not been swept because Zion got injured. Instead you self among other posters telling me about BI's contract risk. Guess what I was trying to avoid last year when BI held more value coming off the Suns PO run.

My modus operandi is don't force things, progress is made in a collection of good decisions not rash ones.

Success & failure exists in every decision made. Pushing all in with Allen guarantees what?

Jtbc, I'd rather not move Allen (or Garland) so I'm good if the Pelicans decide to pivot. But you're singularly focused on a trade that requires the agreement of three other teams, before the draft, in order to land a raw prospect who would likely struggle to meaningfully contribute in year 1.

There are a couple of possible S&T opportunities out there with Hartenstein and Claxton. I think JV's market is softer than you do. I wouldn't be so dismissive of the ability to bring him back on the MLE. You might have to add a year, but that's workeable.

[Whole Truth]

Interesting debate in the thread, thanks for the discussion.

I know from watching quite a lot of Pels games how valuable Jonas is, especially his ability to be a 'big 3' type offensive presence whenever Zion or Ingram is out.

Even though BI had a horrible series against OKC I don't forget how impactful he is and how consistent he is overall. Obviously moving BI and Jonas creates a hole to fill on offense and LeVert as a bench spark doesn't cut it and Allen's low post game isn't enough. But with a healthy rotation of useful scorers:

Herb is growing offensively, as is Trey Murphy. Dyson can and should be more aggressive offensively, Hawkins is streaky now but could be a real offensive weapon in time....

There are pieces that, along with CJ, could keep the win column ticking along even if Zion is out for periods of time.

Allen/Murphy III/Herb/LeVert/CJ
Nance/Naji/Dyson/Hawkins/Jose

It feels light for star power but it's a squad that can still score 115 points a night.

Keep this in mind. Building around Zion is going to increase his usage & work load where he's to date been unable to stay healthy under a lighter load over a 5yr period, so it's a considerable sample.

It's for this reason I have priority on potential, cost & control in targeting fit, over pushing in on a volatile situation with limited control.

With a healthy Zion/foundation, nothing wrong with your trade or approach.

Having said that my opinion is a defensive play making guard upgrading CJ is more important than a rim protector over Jonas.

Nance who was a defensive upgrade & shot 45% from 3 punishing teams for leaving him open on nearly every other shot was -6.5 with the starters. Where Allen doesn't even attempt 3's. This is not the typical mid range game for him either, there will be 3-4 players sitting in the paint where Allen is most efficient at the rim. Same way NO's thought Adams was going to be the missing piece, full circle.

Daniels 12% offensive usage & 30% spacing was a whopping +20 with the starters over CJ's elite spacing because he provided elite ball pressure. Daniels with a 3pt shot that can punish teams for leaving him open makes a trade target like Murray unnecessary. His rookie scale also better cost control than Murray's value 30m contract, allowing for a BI extension/risk. I think NO's could successfully platoon Murphy & Daniels in CJ spot if they can trade him for a C, cap space & or both.

CJ trade - #21
Zion - Nance
BI - Murphy
Herb/Myrphy - Hawkins/Daniels
Herb/Daniels - Jose

[Whole Truth]

I mean, let's say that they made the Ingram/Miller trade (and this assumes the Hornets agree of which I'm skeptical). As nice as Miller looked in a developmental setting, he would not have replaced Ingram's production in the regular season. He couldn't have started in the playoffs. The Pelicans wouldn't have made the play-in last season and the odds of them making the playoffs this season would still be heavily dependent upon Zion's health.

Either get all the way in or all the way out IMO. Be good enough to make the playoffs, even if Zion misses regular season games, and pray Zion can be healthy for the playoffs, or, move Zion and reset.

All hypotheticals & assumptions geared to perception.

Charlotte accepting BI for Miller is irrelevant. The point was about directional choice, I don't know if Hawks would accept trading Sarr either but it's the same approach & goal of a soft reset. As mentioned, if my target last year was Scoot instead of Miller, the approach would have had an unfavorable result because every decision has it's own risk.

Pelicans would have had a lotto pick, a cost controlled Miller over BI's 50m extension & not been swept because Zion got injured. Instead you self among other posters telling me about BI's contract risk. Guess what I was trying to avoid last year when BI held more value coming off the Suns PO run.

My modus operandi is don't force things, progress is made in a collection of good decisions not rash ones.

Success & failure exists in every decision made. Pushing all in with Allen guarantees what?

Jtbc, I'd rather not move Allen (or Garland) so I'm good if the Pelicans decide to pivot. But you're singularly focused on a trade that requires the agreement of three other teams, before the draft, in order to land a raw prospect who would likely struggle to meaningfully contribute in year 1.

There are a couple of possible S&T opportunities out there with Hartenstein and Claxton. I think JV's market is softer than you do. I wouldn't be so dismissive of the ability to bring him back on the MLE. You might have to add a year, but that's workeable.

I have OCD & can be a bit repetitive, can't help it.

I'm aware my suggestion is not a reality, just stating preferences.

JV is a bargain at 15m if NO's get him cheaper than that, they'd be IMO foolish not to.