Raptors attempting to trade up in the draft

[ciueli]

The downside is having to pay 4 rookies at the same time when their contact extension comes up. Plus it's hard to prioritize 4 rookies at once to develop. We are so early into our rebuild, putting all your eggs into this draft makes little sense.
We have 3 picks over the next 2 following draft, getting another pick in either 2025 or 2026 makes more sense than loading up in this draft.

It's not like we have a bunch of players blocking rookies from getting minutes though. The players we care about on the roster now are IQ, RJ, Scottie, Jak, and Gradey, it's arguable Jak should be traded if we aren't trying to win.

The rest are all fungible, Kelly Olynk is at the end of his career, Gary Trent Jr. might not be back, Bruce Brown and Chris Boucher are for trade, Jalen McDaniels is probably not an NBA calibre player, ditto for Agbaji, Freeman-Liberty is another end of bench prospect already in his mid-20s who has done nothing. None of these guys are worth prioritizing over getting rookies minutes and developing them.

Sure, getting a pick in 2025 or 2026 makes more sense but those are the picks that teams are unwilling to part with because they are looking like stronger drafts, we aren't going to get a quality first round pick in a deal for Bruce Brown or Chris Boucher, we couldn't even get more than a likely late 2026 pick for Pascal Siakam from the Pacers.

[KrazyP]

Who has drafted 4 players in the same draft and ever come close to hitting on all 4?

You guys are all ignoring the diminishing returns factor. Even in a bad draft half of the actual NBA level players will be drafted before 19. If you have 4 picks, by the time you’re picking in the 30’s you’re drafting a player you aren’t overly high on and you’re making a pick for the sake of a pick.

Want to know why having 4 picks in this draft is a bad idea: we already traded a late 1st for Agbaji. That’s what the front office thinks of this draft. They’d rather take on a borderline player with only 2 years left on their deal than actually draft someone. Why trade for a draft pick that we are going to use on a guy we aren’t even that high on? (because we’ve already drafted the guys we’re high on)

This “4 picks” strategy might make sense with picks before #20 (when the majority of talent is drafted) but it doesn’t make sense later in a bad draft. And I’ll ask again: who has ever come close to successfully hitting on 3 or more picks in the same draft? There are easier (and more efficient) ways of making this team bad next year then taking fliers on a bunch of guys in a bad draft.

That's not the main problem. We got Poeltl #9, Siakam #27 and FVV undrafted in one year. We've also worked out a bunch of dudes projected to be undrafted.

I think the problem is more so potentially getting 3-4 guys who can't contribute right away taking up roster spots. If a few of them bust or take a while to develop, they'll just be taking up space for a few years.

That’s still 3 guys, not 4 as is being suggested here. FVV also cost us nothing. That was also probably one of the best scouting/drafts of all-time by our front office. Hitting on 2 all-stars and a solid role player. Replicating that is extremely unlikely. I do agree with the playing time issues.

The front office has already tipped their hand when it comes to this draft. We know they did not value a late 1st very highly. If they are trading for another pick in the 30’s they are drafting someone with lower potential than Agbaji. This isn’t even just a speculative case of “wish we had another pick”. We literally traded one away because of how little we think about the back half of this draft. If the front office had identified draft-worthy targets they never would have traded for Agbaji. That should tell us all we need to know about their evaluation of this draft. Maybe in a different draft they’d have felt differently but the fact we moved off a late pick should be a strong indicator as to how they’ve evaluated this draft.

I would also add that those 3 players (Poeltl, Siakam and VanVleet) were drafted and then integrated into a 56-win team which already had strong team chemistry and roster balance. It was an environment conducive to proper player development.

I think some people underestimate how important team culture, roster structure and overall environment is to player development success. Adding 3-4 rookies from this weak draft to a 25-win team who's core players (Barnes, RJ, IQ, Dick) are also young would potentially create a terrible environment for player development.

I could see the Raps using exsiting assets to try and trade up in this draft for a player they really like but I highly doubt they want to just collect more picks.

[Scase]

That's not the main problem. We got Poeltl #9, Siakam #27 and FVV undrafted in one year. We've also worked out a bunch of dudes projected to be undrafted.

I think the problem is more so potentially getting 3-4 guys who can't contribute right away taking up roster spots. If a few of them bust or take a while to develop, they'll just be taking up space for a few years.

That’s still 3 guys, not 4 as is being suggested here. FVV also cost us nothing. That was also probably one of the best scouting/drafts of all-time by our front office. Hitting on 2 all-stars and a solid role player. Replicating that is extremely unlikely. I do agree with the playing time issues.

The front office has already tipped their hand when it comes to this draft. We know they did not value a late 1st very highly. If they are trading for another pick in the 30’s they are drafting someone with lower potential than Agbaji. This isn’t even just a speculative case of “wish we had another pick”. We literally traded one away because of how little we think about the back half of this draft. If the front office had identified draft-worthy targets they never would have traded for Agbaji. That should tell us all we need to know about their evaluation of this draft. Maybe in a different draft they’d have felt differently but the fact we moved off a late pick should be a strong indicator as to how they’ve evaluated this draft.

I would also add that those 3 players (Poeltl, Siakam and VanVleet) were drafted and then integrated into a 56-win team which already had strong team chemistry and roster balance. It was an environment conducive to proper player development.

I think some people underestimate how important team culture, roster structure and overall environment is to player development success. Adding 3-4 rookies from this weak draft to a 25-win team who's core players (Barnes, RJ, IQ, Dick) are also young would potentially create a terrible environment for player development.

I could see the Raps using exsiting assets to try and trade up in this draft for a player they really like but I highly doubt they want to just collect more picks.

Yep, middling picks in the 20's and 30's aren't going to develop at any impressive rate in this environment, or even in general, but especially not in this environment. You need high talent players who will show out regardless of team comp, and then build from there.

If you had 3 top 10 picks, yeah thats a good problem to have, you figure that out. But if it's 3 mediocre to bad picks, why bother. Try and package them to move up.

[Pointgod]

ya probably not, the point is they should.

What I just outlined has way more value to the rebuild then the alternative.

All these veterans we know what they are (ex.trent), likely aren't part of the future, and we're still gonna suck this year anyway.

We should be extracting as much value possible out of where we are (beginning of rebuild).

the alternative is a total waste ( big picture) which is all that really matters.

Yeah like there’s literally no downside to this approach. The upside is that you get guys minutes, build up their trade value, generate a better pick in next year’s draft and if you want to make a win now move for next year, we have more assets to put in a trade and some cap space. Don’t know why posters are scared of copying a formula that other teams have used successfully

Who has drafted 4 players in the same draft and ever come close to hitting on all 4?

You guys are all ignoring the diminishing returns factor. Even in a bad draft half of the actual NBA level players will be drafted before 19. If you have 4 picks, by the time you’re picking in the 30’s you’re drafting a player you aren’t overly high on and you’re making a pick for the sake of a pick.

Want to know why having 4 picks in this draft is a bad idea: we already traded a late 1st for Agbaji. That’s what the front office thinks of this draft. They’d rather take on a borderline player with only 2 years left on their deal than actually draft someone. Why trade for a draft pick that we are going to use on a guy we aren’t even that high on? (because we’ve already drafted the guys we’re high on)

This “4 picks” strategy might make sense with picks before #20 (when the majority of talent is drafted) but it doesn’t make sense later in a bad draft. And I’ll ask again: who has ever come close to successfully hitting on 3 or more picks in the same draft? There are easier (and more efficient) ways of making this team bad next year then taking fliers on a bunch of guys in a bad draft.

The multiple picks strategy is giving yourself as many swings at the ball in a short period of time and setting up ourselves for next season where we can get a chance for a difference maker.

Of course we won’t hit on all 4 picks but this approach allows us to see early who’s promising and if they can earn minutes quickly, even better. Ideally you want more picks in the 2025 draft but I don’t think too many of our guys can fetch a solid first round pick in 2025. It’s more about our own 2025 pick and clearing minutes to build up the value of young assets

[PhilBlackson]

Yeah like there’s literally no downside to this approach. The upside is that you get guys minutes, build up their trade value, generate a better pick in next year’s draft and if you want to make a win now move for next year, we have more assets to put in a trade and some cap space. Don’t know why posters are scared of copying a formula that other teams have used successfully

Who has drafted 4 players in the same draft and ever come close to hitting on all 4?

You guys are all ignoring the diminishing returns factor. Even in a bad draft half of the actual NBA level players will be drafted before 19. If you have 4 picks, by the time you’re picking in the 30’s you’re drafting a player you aren’t overly high on and you’re making a pick for the sake of a pick.

Want to know why having 4 picks in this draft is a bad idea: we already traded a late 1st for Agbaji. That’s what the front office thinks of this draft. They’d rather take on a borderline player with only 2 years left on their deal than actually draft someone. Why trade for a draft pick that we are going to use on a guy we aren’t even that high on? (because we’ve already drafted the guys we’re high on)

This “4 picks” strategy might make sense with picks before #20 (when the majority of talent is drafted) but it doesn’t make sense later in a bad draft. And I’ll ask again: who has ever come close to successfully hitting on 3 or more picks in the same draft? There are easier (and more efficient) ways of making this team bad next year then taking fliers on a bunch of guys in a bad draft.

The multiple picks strategy is giving yourself as many swings at the ball in a short period of time and setting up ourselves for next season where we can get a chance for a difference maker.

Of course we won’t hit on all 4 picks but this approach allows us to see early who’s promising and if they can earn minutes quickly, even better. Ideally you want more picks in the 2025 draft but I don’t think too many of our guys can fetch a solid first round pick in 2025. It’s more about our own 2025 pick and clearing minutes to build up the value of young assets

I think most people understand the philosphy of having 4 rookies, I just don't think in reality the franchise does it (period). There's VERY few teams in the league that will unless they're fully committed to tanking....which ofc has never been this FO's style.

[WuTang_CMB]

Who has drafted 4 players in the same draft and ever come close to hitting on all 4?

You guys are all ignoring the diminishing returns factor. Even in a bad draft half of the actual NBA level players will be drafted before 19. If you have 4 picks, by the time you’re picking in the 30’s you’re drafting a player you aren’t overly high on and you’re making a pick for the sake of a pick.

Want to know why having 4 picks in this draft is a bad idea: we already traded a late 1st for Agbaji. That’s what the front office thinks of this draft. They’d rather take on a borderline player with only 2 years left on their deal than actually draft someone. Why trade for a draft pick that we are going to use on a guy we aren’t even that high on? (because we’ve already drafted the guys we’re high on)

This “4 picks” strategy might make sense with picks before #20 (when the majority of talent is drafted) but it doesn’t make sense later in a bad draft. And I’ll ask again: who has ever come close to successfully hitting on 3 or more picks in the same draft? There are easier (and more efficient) ways of making this team bad next year then taking fliers on a bunch of guys in a bad draft.

The multiple picks strategy is giving yourself as many swings at the ball in a short period of time and setting up ourselves for next season where we can get a chance for a difference maker.

Of course we won’t hit on all 4 picks but this approach allows us to see early who’s promising and if they can earn minutes quickly, even better. Ideally you want more picks in the 2025 draft but I don’t think too many of our guys can fetch a solid first round pick in 2025. It’s more about our own 2025 pick and clearing minutes to build up the value of young assets

I think most people understand the philosphy of having 4 rookies, I just don't think in reality the franchise does it (period). There's VERY few teams in the league that will unless they're full committed tanking....which ofc has never been this FO's style.

yeah they wont, it's useless to think that way especially when this FO's already showed us their cards by dealing OG for 2 starters. If OG was dealt for a pick package and they were full on tanking, then maybe I could see it. This team wants to build next year so they are going to go into the season hoping to win games and get the core better. If we are really bad come the deadline, then they should be selling off guys like Poeltl

[deeps6x]

ya probably not, the point is they should.

What I just outlined has way more value to the rebuild then the alternative.

All these veterans we know what they are (ex.trent), likely aren't part of the future, and we're still gonna suck this year anyway.

We should be extracting as much value possible out of where we are (beginning of rebuild).

the alternative is a total waste ( big picture) which is all that really matters.

Yeah like there’s literally no downside to this approach. The upside is that you get guys minutes, build up their trade value, generate a better pick in next year’s draft and if you want to make a win now move for next year, we have more assets to put in a trade and some cap space. Don’t know why posters are scared of copying a formula that other teams have used successfully

The downside is having to pay 4 rookies at the same time when their contact extension comes up. Plus it's hard to prioritize 4 rookies at once to develop. We are so early into our rebuild, putting all your eggs into this draft makes little sense.
We have 3 picks over the next 2 following draft, getting another pick in either 2025 or 2026 makes more sense than loading up in this draft.

We would be insanely lucky to have 2 of the 4 become actual rotation players. Those two would be the ones that would be extended. If we happened to draft four players and they ALL became quality rotation players, that would be amazing. Excellent. It would give us two extra highly desirable players that could be packaged into an upgrade somewhere for an all-star.

Having 4 out of 4 winners in this crap draft is NOT a problem. It's a GIFT.

[Pointgod]

Who has drafted 4 players in the same draft and ever come close to hitting on all 4?

You guys are all ignoring the diminishing returns factor. Even in a bad draft half of the actual NBA level players will be drafted before 19. If you have 4 picks, by the time you’re picking in the 30’s you’re drafting a player you aren’t overly high on and you’re making a pick for the sake of a pick.

Want to know why having 4 picks in this draft is a bad idea: we already traded a late 1st for Agbaji. That’s what the front office thinks of this draft. They’d rather take on a borderline player with only 2 years left on their deal than actually draft someone. Why trade for a draft pick that we are going to use on a guy we aren’t even that high on? (because we’ve already drafted the guys we’re high on)

This “4 picks” strategy might make sense with picks before #20 (when the majority of talent is drafted) but it doesn’t make sense later in a bad draft. And I’ll ask again: who has ever come close to successfully hitting on 3 or more picks in the same draft? There are easier (and more efficient) ways of making this team bad next year then taking fliers on a bunch of guys in a bad draft.

The multiple picks strategy is giving yourself as many swings at the ball in a short period of time and setting up ourselves for next season where we can get a chance for a difference maker.

Of course we won’t hit on all 4 picks but this approach allows us to see early who’s promising and if they can earn minutes quickly, even better. Ideally you want more picks in the 2025 draft but I don’t think too many of our guys can fetch a solid first round pick in 2025. It’s more about our own 2025 pick and clearing minutes to build up the value of young assets

I think most people understand the philosphy of having 4 rookies, I just don't think in reality the franchise does it (period). There's VERY few teams in the league that will unless they're fully committed to tanking....which ofc has never been this FO's style.

Oh yeah we’re just spit balling here. I’m talking about what the front office should do given the little downside, not what they will do. This front office is pretty conservative and is content to just keep things steady rather than be more forward thinking. I completely disagree with the approach but agree with you they likely won’t be aggressive with draft picks which makes no sense since drafting is this front office’s bread and butter and they hired a developmental coach but over indexed with vets

[DreamTeam09]

Yeah like there’s literally no downside to this approach. The upside is that you get guys minutes, build up their trade value, generate a better pick in next year’s draft and if you want to make a win now move for next year, we have more assets to put in a trade and some cap space. Don’t know why posters are scared of copying a formula that other teams have used successfully

The downside is having to pay 4 rookies at the same time when their contact extension comes up. Plus it's hard to prioritize 4 rookies at once to develop. We are so early into our rebuild, putting all your eggs into this draft makes little sense.
We have 3 picks over the next 2 following draft, getting another pick in either 2025 or 2026 makes more sense than loading up in this draft.

We would be insanely lucky to have 2 of the 4 become actual rotation players. Those two would be the ones that would be extended. If we happened to draft four players and they ALL became quality rotation players, that would be amazing. Excellent. It would give us two extra highly desirable players that could be packaged into an upgrade somewhere for an all-star.

Having 4 out of 4 winners in this crap draft is NOT a problem. It's a GIFT.

So why not just focus on the two picks we have. Like I get the notion of more darts at the board typa thing. I just don't think this is the draft, and still, 4 1st is a lot. Last team I remember with 4 ist was Minny and they took 4 PGS for some odd reason lol. I'd rather use the 3 of the 4 picks to move up.
Did Houston have 4 picks the JGreen/Sengun/Josh Christopher/D.nix draft...

[Duffman100]

There is an argument that 4 rookies strains internal resources.

If you consider you have finite resources to support and develop players. Rookies are almost always going to require more support from almost every level. Diet, travel, financial, physical / body, not even getting into the actual basketball.

At some point those resources are strained and rookies aren't getting the best situation to develop and grow.

What is that number? Maybe it's 3? 5?

[Pointgod]

The downside is having to pay 4 rookies at the same time when their contact extension comes up. Plus it's hard to prioritize 4 rookies at once to develop. We are so early into our rebuild, putting all your eggs into this draft makes little sense.
We have 3 picks over the next 2 following draft, getting another pick in either 2025 or 2026 makes more sense than loading up in this draft.

We would be insanely lucky to have 2 of the 4 become actual rotation players. Those two would be the ones that would be extended. If we happened to draft four players and they ALL became quality rotation players, that would be amazing. Excellent. It would give us two extra highly desirable players that could be packaged into an upgrade somewhere for an all-star.

Having 4 out of 4 winners in this crap draft is NOT a problem. It's a GIFT.

So why not just focus on the two picks we have. Like I get the notion of more darts at the board typa thing. I just don't think this is the draft, and still, 4 1st is a lot. Last team I remember with 4 ist was Minny and they took 4 PGS for some odd reason lol. I'd rather use the 3 of the 4 picks to move up.
Did Houston have 4 picks the JGreen/Sengun/Josh Christopher/D.nix draft...

OKC drafted 4 picks just 2 years ago and 3 of them are already contributing on a playoff team and they already have a ton of young players on their roster. Like this isn’t something crazy to do, especially for a team that needs way more young bench talent. Again just a thought even though it won’t happen