When did Chris Paul peak for you?

ardee · Post #1 » by **ardee** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:57 am

I've seen a lot of talk now that his best years were at the end of his Clippers' tenure, in the '15-'17 range. I just can't agree with that. As good as he was then he never surpassed his New Orleans' self pre-injury for me.

The best he ever played was the 2009 regular season but then he got hurt and had a poor Playoffs, so I believe his best overall season was 2008. The speed off the dribble and sharpness just never came back after the 2010 injury. He made up for it in other ways, such as guile and strength, but I think it's no coincidence that 2008 was easily his best Playoff performance and it was in subsequent years that the questions about him in the postseason began to be raised.

One_and_Done · Post #2 » by **One_and_Done** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:35 am

I'd say he was already playing like a top 20 all-time player by 08. In 2008 he or KG or Lebron should have won MVP. That version of CP3 was already better than Kobe ever was or would be.

Colbinii · Post #3 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:56 pm

2nd half of 2008 through his 2009 season or 2015 season. The way he ended his 2015 season was incredible.

Last 15 games of season Paul is a whopping +18.1 per game while on the court. He puts up 22.1/11.1 with 1.9 Turnovers, 2.1 Steals and a blistering 52.1/46.1/94.8 shooting splits, 66.7 TS% and an individual Ortg of 141. The only loss on this stretch (14-1 overall) was to the eventual champion Warriors by 4 points (Paul was +4 in the game).

Dr Positivity · Post #4 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:24 pm

Peak athleticism version in 08 and 09.

Matt15 · Post #5 » by **Matt15** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 7:32 pm

Peaked in 2008 for me, had him #2 that year behind Kobe and ahead of KG.

DirtyDez · Post #6 » by **DirtyDez** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:32 pm

07-09’ CP3 might’ve been the most perfect version ever of a PG. Not sure what happened in that Denver series.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #7 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Jun 10, 2024 8:41 pm

08&09 was such a weird time because everyone was so certain that LeBron was the next guy to be in the 'top 5 of all time' type discussions but then Wade had already swooped in and gotten his title and was playing great in 09 and then here comes CP3 playing the way he was so there was question if LeBron was even going to be the best player of that generation. Then of course injuries sort of derailed Wade/CP3 and Dwight too who was becoming an mvp type player and LeBron went from mvp level to mvp++ with a ton of great playoffs under his belt but no one knew that would happen yet in that 08-09 period. It's kind of forgotten now in hindsight imo.

SashimiLover · Post #8 » by **SashimiLover** » Sun Jun 16, 2024 3:03 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:08&09 was such a weird time because everyone was so certain that LeBron was the next guy to be in the 'top 5 of all time' type discussions but then Wade had already swooped in and gotten his title and was playing great in 09 and then here comes CP3 playing the way he was so there was question if LeBron was even going to be the best player of that generation. Then of course injuries sort of derailed Wade/CP3 and Dwight too who was becoming an mvp type player and LeBron went from mvp level to mvp++ with a ton of great playoffs under his belt but no one knew that would happen yet in that 08-09 period. It's kind of forgotten now in hindsight imo.

Yeah, while Lebron probably had the most impressive individual stats back then, Kobe was considered the more skilled by many, and CP3, as a 6 ft PG, was regarded as impactful and pivotal as any MVP contender on their team during that time span

rk2023 · Post #9 » by **rk2023** » Sun Jun 16, 2024 4:26 am

2008/09, before the injury or whatever else happened against Denver. Just a lot more quick, aggressive at getting to the rim - I value that physical peak and motor sense more than I do his better BBIQ (still was surreal back then), shooting profile, and guard defense as a clipper.

DonaldSanders · Post #10 » by **DonaldSanders** » Sun Jun 16, 2024 5:23 am

Hornets CP3 for sure. His injury changed the course of his career, and possibly NBA history. Go back and watch him in those Hornet playoff games, he had so much spring in his step that he eventually lost.

Post #11 » by **Harry Palmer** » Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:43 am

Agreed on his post injury version. He’s such a cerebral player it was easier to overlook/forget how dynamic/mercurial he used to be out there with it.

homecourtloss · Post #12 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:36 pm

Colbinii wrote:2nd half of 2008 through his 2009 season or 2015 season. The way he ended his 2015 season was incredible.

Last 15 games of season Paul is a whopping +18.1 per game while on the court. He puts up 22.1/11.1 with 1.9 Turnovers, 2.1 Steals and a blistering 52.1/46.1/94.8 shooting splits, 66.7 TS% and an individual Ortg of 141. The only loss on this stretch (14-1 overall) was to the eventual champion Warriors by 4 points (Paul was +4 in the game).

CP3 in 2015 was absolutely incredible. Though they might not have beaten the Warriors, it was such poor management to let a zero defense chucker like Jamal Crawford get so many minutes and play so much with the ball in his hands. In non-CP3 paired minutes, Crawford was a -8 player in 2015. Then you had Hawes who was pretty much useless. With even slight upgrades, you’re likely looking at monster team with few weaknesses.

But there’s no guarantee about CP3’s health. As it is, it should have been a Warriors/Clippers WCF.

O_6 · Post #13 » by **O_6** » Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:46 pm

I’ve gone back and forth over the years between ‘08/‘09 CP3 and ‘13/‘15 CP3.

At the moment it happened and until maybe like 2017, I felt like the younger ‘08 CP3 season was the best. But as I looked more into the data and tried to put it in context, I started feeling like he became a better overall player in LA especially defensively. He struggled defending bigger PGs in NO, but he was doing a solid job defending much bigger players like Durant when he was with the Clippers. His outside shot was also a little better during this time.

But reading this thread got me thinking and I may just switch back to younger ‘08 CP3 due to the significant edge in quickness/ability to get easy points inside.

%FGA from 3ft or inside
2008 CP3: 23.0%
2015 CP3: 9.6%

The 23% isn’t some crazy number but to be expected from a normal sized human PG without Morant/Rose hops. However, that below 10% number in 2015 is striking for what is one of the best PG seasons in recent memory.

He ranked 252nd out of 267 qualifying players in terms of FGA% within 3ft. This is a 29 year old legendary HOF PG at his near best and he’s barely taking shots at the rim.

Now, these Clippers in 2015 had the best finishing frontcourt in Jordan/Griffin. They had the best ORtg that year. They had the 10th highest pace. They were 11th in Fastbreak points

Team FGA% within 3ft
2015 Clippers: 24.2% (29th/30… ahead of only 17 win Knicks at 24.1%)

Now maybe I’m nitpicking because they still finished as the best statistical offense in the league that year. But it’s just crazy to me that one of the great PGs of all-time led a Jordan/Griffin frontcourt to such an awful standing in terms of interior scoring. Those garbage Knicks were 30th in terms of fastbreak scoring, averaging 5.8 FBS less than the Clippers. That means the odds are very good that a Jordan/Griffin front-court with CP3 had the worst half-court interior scoring ratio of any team in the league!

2015 CP3 is the most complete version of him. He was an awesome floor general with a killer middy and a two-way defensive beast who could guard 1-3.

But in terms of what I like stylistically, I think that ‘08 version of him was just way too much more dynamic as a driver to take the older version of him in most “best player on team” contexts.

His first round series in ‘08 vs. Dallas with prime Dirk is the scariest he’s ever looked. Or maybe it was the 7 game series loss to the Spurs that year. Which is crazy to say because those were his very first 2 playoff series.

Legendary career. I have him 24th on my all-time list. He’s 20th on the RealGM 2023 list. I’ve been a fan. Definitely not a hater. But I do dock him a little for the lack of interior pressure created at a pretty early age for such a great guard.

One_and_Done · Post #14 » by **One_and_Done** » Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:54 pm

It's pretty embarrassing that CP3 was robbed of the 08 MVP just because fans can't wrap there head around the idea of a guy scoring 20ppg is better for offense than a guy getting 30ppg. Even when dumbing it down to the most simplistic logic it should be communicable. "If CP3 has 21ppg and 12apg, and Kobe has 28ppg and 5apg, isn't CP3 contributing (at a minimum) 45ppg to the team while Kobe is only contributing 38ppg?" Of course CP3 is really contributing much more from hockey assists and ball movement, etc, but that kind of 1 + 1 logic should really be sufficient to get the point across. He's also scoring the points more efficiently, and making his team score more efficiently.

Statlanta · Post #15 » by **Statlanta** » Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:19 am

One_and_Done wrote:It's pretty embarrassing that CP3 was robbed of the 08 MVP just because fans can't wrap there head around the idea of a guy scoring 20ppg is better for offense than a guy getting 30ppg.

This makes no sense because the media was two years removed from giving a below 20 point scorer B2B MVPs(rightfully imo).

One_and_Done · Post #16 » by **One_and_Done** » Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:23 am

Statlanta wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:It's pretty embarrassing that CP3 was robbed of the 08 MVP just because fans can't wrap there head around the idea of a guy scoring 20ppg is better for offense than a guy getting 30ppg.

This makes no sense because the media was two years removed from giving a below 20 point scorer B2B MVPs(rightfully imo).

I agree Nash was the rightful 2 time MVP, but I think he had some narrative advantages over Nash. I won't dwell on all of them, but I think the fact the team went from bad to contender level made it easier for casual fans to visualise the difference.

I mean a bunch of guys should have won the 08 MVP over Kobe, so that was basically just a bad vote.

TroubleS0me · Post #17 » by **TroubleS0me** » Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:54 am

One_and_Done wrote:
Statlanta wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:It's pretty embarrassing that CP3 was robbed of the 08 MVP just because fans can't wrap there head around the idea of a guy scoring 20ppg is better for offense than a guy getting 30ppg.

This makes no sense because the media was two years removed from giving a below 20 point scorer B2B MVPs(rightfully imo).

I agree Nash was the rightful 2 time MVP, but I think he had some narrative advantages over Nash. I won't dwell on all of them, but I think the fact the team went from bad to contender level made it easier for casual fans to visualise the difference.

I mean a bunch of guys should have won the 08 MVP over Kobe, so that was basically just a bad vote.

The talk of the time was who had the best record in the WEST . Whoever got it was gonna be MVP. Kobe never winning MVP and losing in 'the 06 MVP voting played a part in the voting.

One_and_Done · Post #18 » by **One_and_Done** » Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:59 am

Which was dumb.

Dee45 · Post #19 » by **Dee45** » Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:57 am

His peak was during the 2008-09 season. CP3 had such athleticism before the injuries during the 2009-10 season.

Jaqua92 · Post #20 » by **Jaqua92** » Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:17 pm

One_and_Done wrote:I'd say he was already playing like a top 20 all-time player by 08. In 2008 he or KG or Lebron should have won MVP. That version of CP3 was already better than Kobe ever was or would be.

He peaked then, as a top 5 player.

He stopped being a top 10 player by 2016.

Most overrated player in the history of the NBA. I don't get it.