Mavs/Warriors/Raptors

[gswhoops]

The Warriors aren't looking to dump Wiggins, they're looking to improve the team by trading him and this doesn't do it. Wiggins is a top-5 defender at his position, much better than McDaniels and I think Maxi is well onto the downside of his career. THJ is not worth mentioning.

We'll keep Wiggins and use the MLE while staying below the tax.

It seems like the Mavs are the only team that improves in this trade.

I mean I think this is certainly a fair perspective. I too would prefer Wiggins on the court to Kleber especially considering the durability advantage.

There is some dispute as to the plans regarding Wiggins which the OP explained and gswhoops has confirmed multiple times so hence a thread.

I think all Warriors fans agree that the best possible outcome would be that we keep Wiggins and he returns to his 2022 form. But it has been nearly 2 years now since he has been a consistent impact player, and given his unreliability, the public comments by our FO about wanting to be more financially responsible, Klay's free agency, and Kuminga's upcoming extension, it is fair to believe that the Warriors' front office is ready and willing to move on from Wiggins. Especially since several unrelated media sources have suggested as such.

[gswhoops]

I think the bottom line here for Golden State is: we can't keep Wiggins, Klay, and Kuminga beyond this year without going deep into the tax (which the FO has signaled they are not willing to do).

To me, Wiggins is the clear odd man out of those three.

[islandboy53]

I mean, I know it's Toronto, and they don't deserve anything for anything, but, c'mon.

Can we not with this please?

It's fine to dispute value. And I even agreed the OP was light for Toronto.

But nobody is saying well its Toronto it just doesn't matter. And you know this. Or should.

Stick to the topic not the victim complex. It's exhausting.

I responded to the previous comment suggesting three 2nd round picks to Toronto was "way too much" with a reasonable rebuttal. The closing statement was a bit of frustration at the relatively common type of comment I see on threads involving Toronto players which tend to boil down to "Toronto is getting way too much here." You may not think it's valid, but please don't denigrate my otherwise quite reasonable contribution. You can do better.

[GQ Hot Dog]

The Warriors aren't looking to dump Wiggins, they're looking to improve the team by trading him and this doesn't do it. Wiggins is a top-5 defender at his position, much better than McDaniels and I think Maxi is well onto the downside of his career. THJ is not worth mentioning.

We'll keep Wiggins and use the MLE while staying below the tax.

It seems like the Mavs are the only team that improves in this trade.

That....is not what has been reported about the Warriors vis a vis Wiggins:

https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/nba-media-hive-over-andrew-wiggins-experience-19408691.php

NBA media hive? There's nothing of substance in this article. It's strictly media speculation.

[Texas Chuck]

I mean, I know it's Toronto, and they don't deserve anything for anything, but, c'mon.

Can we not with this please?

It's fine to dispute value. And I even agreed the OP was light for Toronto.

But nobody is saying well its Toronto it just doesn't matter. And you know this. Or should.

Stick to the topic not the victim complex. It's exhausting.

I responded to the previous comment suggesting three 2nd round picks to Toronto was "way too much" with a reasonable rebuttal. The closing statement was a bit of frustration at the relatively common type of comment I see on threads involving Toronto players which tend to boil down to "Toronto is getting way too much here." You may not think it's valid, but please don't denigrate my otherwise quite reasonable contribution. You can do better.

You have consistently stuck Toronto as the 3rd team into deals where they are not needed and demanded high values for their unnecessary participation. So yes you keep hearing Toronto is getting too much. But that's because in those cases Toronto is getting too much.

Not because people are on some anti-Toronto mission as you implied here. So yeah I will criticize that little comment that doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You have to be able to hear that sometimes other posters don't value Raptors assets as you do without seeing it as an attack on Toronto. Because its not. It's a different valuation. The end.

[gswhoops]

The Warriors aren't looking to dump Wiggins, they're looking to improve the team by trading him and this doesn't do it. Wiggins is a top-5 defender at his position, much better than McDaniels and I think Maxi is well onto the downside of his career. THJ is not worth mentioning.

We'll keep Wiggins and use the MLE while staying below the tax.

It seems like the Mavs are the only team that improves in this trade.

That....is not what has been reported about the Warriors vis a vis Wiggins:

https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/nba-media-hive-over-andrew-wiggins-experience-19408691.php

NBA media hive? There's nothing of substance in this article. It's strictly media speculation.

It's several different reporters, multiple with Bay Area/Warriors ties, opining that the team is ready to move on from Wiggins. That's hardly just "speculation."

This is a world of imperfect information. Dunleavy isn't going to hold a press conference and announce "we're sick of dealing with Wiggins' BS and we're going to trade him for whatever we can get this offseason."

[MessiahUjiri]

why would Toronto do this for a 2nd rd pick? They don't want to be operating over the cap while rebuilding and taking on contracts.

Toronto will likely over the cap assuming they exercise the TO on Brown (and trade him). They also get the MLE by operating over the cap.

But yeah, this trade ain’t enough for Toronto. That’s a lot of negative money for a single 2nd.

Also, GSW probably prefers Bruce Brown to THJ if they want to compete, as Brown’s defense / hustle complements Steph better. So you could send THJ to Toronto along with some additional assets and maybe this works. JoshG? Moody? Omax? I dunno something like that.

Here's a small modification of the original. Basically, Toronto moves out a small salary in Freeman-Liberty so that they can take on Looney's full salary. For the extra $1.7 million in net salary they get some centre depth who is probably movable at the deadline for something. Dallas still saves $3 million while getting Wiggins for a 2nd and parts. The Warriors reduce salary by almost $12 million next year, and more than that moving forward, which is why they're paying a bit.

Mavs Trade:THJ, Kleber, Powell, 25 TOR 2nd
Mavs Receive: Wiggins, Freeman-Liberty (waive or retain for trade filler)

Warriors trade: Wiggins , GPII, Looney, 26 Atl 2nd, 28 Atl 2nd
Warriors Receive: THJ, Maxi, McDaniels

Raptors trade: McDaniels, Freeman-Liberty
Raptors receive: GPII (into TPE), Powell, Looney, TOR 25 2nd, 26 Atl 2nd, 28 Atl 2nd

Here's a revision including Brown to Golden State. The Warriors savings are down to about $5 million, but they get a much more useful player, and pay accordingly.

Mavs Trade:THJ, Kleber, Powell, 25 TOR 2nd
Mavs Receive: Wiggins, Freeman-Liberty (waive or retain for trade filler)

Warriors trade: Wiggins , GPII, Looney, 25 GS 1st
Warriors Receive: Brown, Maxi, McDaniels

Raptors trade: McDaniels, Freeman-Liberty, Brown
Raptors receive: THJ, GPII, Powell (into TPE), Looney, TOR 25 2nd, 25 GS 1st

The bolded one is pretty interesting.

Warriors do it. Brown and Maxi can both contribute, and they unlock the MLE.

Raptors do it. Cashing out on Brown and cap space is exactly what they should do.

Mavericks do it if they’re interested in Wiggins. They should be, at this price.

[gswhoops]

Toronto will likely over the cap assuming they exercise the TO on Brown (and trade him). They also get the MLE by operating over the cap.

But yeah, this trade ain’t enough for Toronto. That’s a lot of negative money for a single 2nd.

Also, GSW probably prefers Bruce Brown to THJ if they want to compete, as Brown’s defense / hustle complements Steph better. So you could send THJ to Toronto along with some additional assets and maybe this works. JoshG? Moody? Omax? I dunno something like that.

Here's a small modification of the original. Basically, Toronto moves out a small salary in Freeman-Liberty so that they can take on Looney's full salary. For the extra $1.7 million in net salary they get some centre depth who is probably movable at the deadline for something. Dallas still saves $3 million while getting Wiggins for a 2nd and parts. The Warriors reduce salary by almost $12 million next year, and more than that moving forward, which is why they're paying a bit.

Mavs Trade:THJ, Kleber, Powell, 25 TOR 2nd
Mavs Receive: Wiggins, Freeman-Liberty (waive or retain for trade filler)

Warriors trade: Wiggins , GPII, Looney, 26 Atl 2nd, 28 Atl 2nd
Warriors Receive: THJ, Maxi, McDaniels

Raptors trade: McDaniels, Freeman-Liberty
Raptors receive: GPII (into TPE), Powell, Looney, TOR 25 2nd, 26 Atl 2nd, 28 Atl 2nd

Here's a revision including Brown to Golden State. The Warriors savings are down to about $5 million, but they get a much more useful player, and pay accordingly.

Mavs Trade:THJ, Kleber, Powell, 25 TOR 2nd
Mavs Receive: Wiggins, Freeman-Liberty (waive or retain for trade filler)

Warriors trade: Wiggins , GPII, Looney, 25 GS 1st
Warriors Receive: Brown, Maxi, McDaniels

Raptors trade: McDaniels, Freeman-Liberty, Brown
Raptors receive: THJ, GPII, Powell (into TPE), Looney, TOR 25 2nd, 25 GS 1st

The bolded one is pretty interesting.

Warriors do it. Brown and Maxi can both contribute, and they unlock the MLE.

Raptors do it. Cashing out on Brown and cap space is exactly what they should do.

Mavericks do it if they’re interested in Wiggins. They should be, at this price.

GS would cut Toronto out of this, keep their first, and look to dump GP2 elsewhere. Looney is only guaranteed for $3M so he can be stretch-waived without surrendering assets.

[GQ Hot Dog]

The Warriors aren't looking to dump Wiggins, they're looking to improve the team by trading him and this doesn't do it. Wiggins is a top-5 defender at his position, much better than McDaniels and I think Maxi is well onto the downside of his career. THJ is not worth mentioning.

We'll keep Wiggins and use the MLE while staying below the tax.

It seems like the Mavs are the only team that improves in this trade.

The Mavs may very well improve after this trade, but they also be stuck with a guy paid 80/3 and not interested in BB anymore also, I said in the OP it's a gamble, if there is no upside, there on point in risking the downside.
You don't have to like the trade, but you also don't need to belittle it, indeed, Warriors don't improve after this trade, they do however get a tool to improve (27M TPE), and dump a lot of money that will alow them to improve this year, and in the next years.
The Warriros were absolutely rumored to want to trade Wiggins.
The Warriors aren't getting better value for Wiggins IMO, they may want to keep him because they believe he can be better, they are the team that knows him the most, but he hasn't done anything since 2022 Finals to justify this contract, and it's been 2 years now.

Did I belittle the trade? I said the Warriors were looking to improve the team by trading Wiggins, but this trade only improves the Mavs, which you agreed with.

My perspective on Wiggins is that 2022-23 was a lost year due to what I think is/was a serious family illness. I don't think he spent any of that time staying in shape or keeping his game sharp and that's totally on him, it's not professional. But I also don't really know the nature of what he was dealing with.

So last season he comes in out of shape and not having picked up a basketball for a while and it showed. He improved as the season progressed but roster issues, such as Klay taking a big step back, put him in a position where he was miscast, similar to his time in Minny. He's great if you need a guy to fit in, defending the other team's best wing and being the 3rd/4th scorer. If you need him to step up into a marquee scoring role, which is what we really needed from him last season, it's not going to work.

So my hope is that he comes into camp in much better shape and with a normal off season regimen of skills work. But who knows? Maybe the FO is looking to dump him because they know what really happened behind the scenes and it was all total BS and Wiggins just gave up on the game after he got paid, total worst case scenario. In that case...yeah, I like the trade.

[GQ Hot Dog]

That....is not what has been reported about the Warriors vis a vis Wiggins:

https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/article/nba-media-hive-over-andrew-wiggins-experience-19408691.php

NBA media hive? There's nothing of substance in this article. It's strictly media speculation.

It's several different reporters, multiple with Bay Area/Warriors ties, opining that the team is ready to move on from Wiggins. That's hardly just "speculation."

This is a world of imperfect information. Dunleavy isn't going to hold a press conference and announce "we're sick of dealing with Wiggins' BS and we're going to trade him for whatever we can get this offseason."

There's no quotes from anyone with the team, there's nothing but a reporter asking a question to Wiggins. It's the definition of "just speculation". It's fluff. It's nothing. It's an attempt to attract eyeballs from writers that have nothing of substance.

[GQ Hot Dog]

I think the bottom line here for Golden State is: we can't keep Wiggins, Klay, and Kuminga beyond this year without going deep into the tax (which the FO has signaled they are not willing to do).

To me, Wiggins is the clear odd man out of those three.

For me, Klay is the odd man out. Klay can't adequately defend any position well enough to start anymore and that trumps everything. "Fiscal responsibility" is why Klay is testing free agency.

[islandboy53]

Can we not with this please?

It's fine to dispute value. And I even agreed the OP was light for Toronto.

But nobody is saying well its Toronto it just doesn't matter. And you know this. Or should.

Stick to the topic not the victim complex. It's exhausting.

I responded to the previous comment suggesting three 2nd round picks to Toronto was "way too much" with a reasonable rebuttal. The closing statement was a bit of frustration at the relatively common type of comment I see on threads involving Toronto players which tend to boil down to "Toronto is getting way too much here." You may not think it's valid, but please don't denigrate my otherwise quite reasonable contribution. You can do better.

You have consistently stuck Toronto as the 3rd team into deals where they are not needed and demanded high values for their unnecessary participation. So yes you keep hearing Toronto is getting too much. But that's because in those cases Toronto is getting too much.

Thanks for your opinion on my trade proposals. I will continue to put them forward from time to time as the spirit moves me, and you can expect that they will tend to have a high valuation for Toronto participation, but I will certainly not be demanding anything. Feel free to offer your thoughts on them. Your critiques are sometimes helpful.

Not because people are on some anti-Toronto mission as you implied here. So yeah I will criticize that little comment that doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You have to be able to hear that sometimes other posters don't value Raptors assets as you do without seeing it as an attack on Toronto. Because its not. It's a different valuation. The end.

I totally understand that there is back and forth here, and it's always interesting to see different perspectives on teams, players, proposals, etc. I don't see different valuation of Raptor assets as "an attack on Toronto". I am occasionally frustrated by posters who use the "too much for Toronto" line as a blanket statement without any rationale or justification, but it generally doesn't factor into my responses. As regards you responding to that singular instance of me expressing that frustration, I trust I'll see you make it your mission to criticize every comment that fails to "add anything to the discussion". I further trust that you'll do so without the editorial commentary on those folks trade proposals.

[gswhoops]

NBA media hive? There's nothing of substance in this article. It's strictly media speculation.

It's several different reporters, multiple with Bay Area/Warriors ties, opining that the team is ready to move on from Wiggins. That's hardly just "speculation."

This is a world of imperfect information. Dunleavy isn't going to hold a press conference and announce "we're sick of dealing with Wiggins' BS and we're going to trade him for whatever we can get this offseason."

There's no quotes from anyone with the team, there's nothing but a reporter asking a question to Wiggins. It's the definition of "just speculation". It's fluff. It's nothing. It's an attempt to attract eyeballs from writers that have nothing of substance.

I think it's unrealistic to hold out "someone from the team commenting on a player's availability" as the standard here.

[Texas Chuck]

.

Fair response. I overreacted to your little comment at the end. I do feel a need as a mod to tamp down on that kind of victim complex because the board gets overrun with it at times, but I could and should have made that point differently. My apologies.

[islandboy53]

.

Fair response. I overreacted to your little comment at the end. I do feel a need as a mod to tamp down on that kind of victim complex because the board gets overrun with it at times, but I could and should have made that point differently. My apologies.

All good. It’s tough being a mod. Many thanks for your hard work!!

[Crazy-Canuck]

The Warriors aren't looking to dump Wiggins, they're looking to improve the team by trading him and this doesn't do it. Wiggins is a top-5 defender at his position, much better than McDaniels and I think Maxi is well onto the downside of his career. THJ is not worth mentioning.

We'll keep Wiggins and use the MLE while staying below the tax.

It seems like the Mavs are the only team that improves in this trade.

The Mavs may very well improve after this trade, but they also be stuck with a guy paid 80/3 and not interested in BB anymore also, I said in the OP it's a gamble, if there is no upside, there on point in risking the downside.
You don't have to like the trade, but you also don't need to belittle it, indeed, Warriors don't improve after this trade, they do however get a tool to improve (27M TPE), and dump a lot of money that will alow them to improve this year, and in the next years.
The Warriros were absolutely rumored to want to trade Wiggins.
The Warriors aren't getting better value for Wiggins IMO, they may want to keep him because they believe he can be better, they are the team that knows him the most, but he hasn't done anything since 2022 Finals to justify this contract, and it's been 2 years now.

Did I belittle the trade? I said the Warriors were looking to improve the team by trading Wiggins, but this trade only improves the Mavs, which you agreed with.

My perspective on Wiggins is that 2022-23 was a lost year due to what I think is/was a serious family illness. I don't think he spent any of that time staying in shape or keeping his game sharp and that's totally on him, it's not professional. But I also don't really know the nature of what he was dealing with.

So last season he comes in out of shape and not having picked up a basketball for a while and it showed. He improved as the season progressed but roster issues, such as Klay taking a big step back, put him in a position where he was miscast, similar to his time in Minny. He's great if you need a guy to fit in, defending the other team's best wing and being the 3rd/4th scorer. If you need him to step up into a marquee scoring role, which is what we really needed from him last season, it's not going to work.

So my hope is that he comes into camp in much better shape and with a normal off season regimen of skills work. But who knows? Maybe the FO is looking to dump him because they know what really happened behind the scenes and it was all total BS and Wiggins just gave up on the game after he got paid, total worst case scenario. In that case...yeah, I like the trade.

Actually it was near impossible for him to workout and work on his skills last offseason with a fractured rib cartilage. From what i read, complete rest is the path to recovery. Game 5 vs the Lakers?

[GQ Hot Dog]

The Mavs may very well improve after this trade, but they also be stuck with a guy paid 80/3 and not interested in BB anymore also, I said in the OP it's a gamble, if there is no upside, there on point in risking the downside.
You don't have to like the trade, but you also don't need to belittle it, indeed, Warriors don't improve after this trade, they do however get a tool to improve (27M TPE), and dump a lot of money that will alow them to improve this year, and in the next years.
The Warriros were absolutely rumored to want to trade Wiggins.
The Warriors aren't getting better value for Wiggins IMO, they may want to keep him because they believe he can be better, they are the team that knows him the most, but he hasn't done anything since 2022 Finals to justify this contract, and it's been 2 years now.

Did I belittle the trade? I said the Warriors were looking to improve the team by trading Wiggins, but this trade only improves the Mavs, which you agreed with.

My perspective on Wiggins is that 2022-23 was a lost year due to what I think is/was a serious family illness. I don't think he spent any of that time staying in shape or keeping his game sharp and that's totally on him, it's not professional. But I also don't really know the nature of what he was dealing with.

So last season he comes in out of shape and not having picked up a basketball for a while and it showed. He improved as the season progressed but roster issues, such as Klay taking a big step back, put him in a position where he was miscast, similar to his time in Minny. He's great if you need a guy to fit in, defending the other team's best wing and being the 3rd/4th scorer. If you need him to step up into a marquee scoring role, which is what we really needed from him last season, it's not going to work.

So my hope is that he comes into camp in much better shape and with a normal off season regimen of skills work. But who knows? Maybe the FO is looking to dump him because they know what really happened behind the scenes and it was all total BS and Wiggins just gave up on the game after he got paid, total worst case scenario. In that case...yeah, I like the trade.

Actually it was near impossible for him to workout and work on his skills last offseason with a fractured rib cartilage. From what i read, complete rest is the path to recovery. Game 5 vs the Lakers?

Well then there's even more reason for optimism! I certainly haven't given up on seeing 2022 Wigging again. But if the FO accepts a trade like this, they clearly have.

[MessiahUjiri]

Here's a small modification of the original. Basically, Toronto moves out a small salary in Freeman-Liberty so that they can take on Looney's full salary. For the extra $1.7 million in net salary they get some centre depth who is probably movable at the deadline for something. Dallas still saves $3 million while getting Wiggins for a 2nd and parts. The Warriors reduce salary by almost $12 million next year, and more than that moving forward, which is why they're paying a bit.

Mavs Trade:THJ, Kleber, Powell, 25 TOR 2nd
Mavs Receive: Wiggins, Freeman-Liberty (waive or retain for trade filler)

Warriors trade: Wiggins , GPII, Looney, 26 Atl 2nd, 28 Atl 2nd
Warriors Receive: THJ, Maxi, McDaniels

Raptors trade: McDaniels, Freeman-Liberty
Raptors receive: GPII (into TPE), Powell, Looney, TOR 25 2nd, 26 Atl 2nd, 28 Atl 2nd

Here's a revision including Brown to Golden State. The Warriors savings are down to about $5 million, but they get a much more useful player, and pay accordingly.

Mavs Trade:THJ, Kleber, Powell, 25 TOR 2nd
Mavs Receive: Wiggins, Freeman-Liberty (waive or retain for trade filler)

Warriors trade: Wiggins , GPII, Looney, 25 GS 1st
Warriors Receive: Brown, Maxi, McDaniels

Raptors trade: McDaniels, Freeman-Liberty, Brown
Raptors receive: THJ, GPII, Powell (into TPE), Looney, TOR 25 2nd, 25 GS 1st

The bolded one is pretty interesting.

Warriors do it. Brown and Maxi can both contribute, and they unlock the MLE.

Raptors do it. Cashing out on Brown and cap space is exactly what they should do.

Mavericks do it if they’re interested in Wiggins. They should be, at this price.

GS would cut Toronto out of this, keep their first, and look to dump GP2 elsewhere. Looney is only guaranteed for $3M so he can be stretch-waived without surrendering assets.

Technically the trade for the warriors is:

Brown, Kleber, McDaniels, {Full MLE Player}
for
Wiggins, ‘25 1st, Looney, Payton


That’s a positive sum trade for GSW.