2024 Draft Thread - Part II

[closg00]

Sarr's game tells me he doesn't want to play C. He is undersized for C and seems contact averse.

Doesn’t bode well if we need him to battle for rebounds and defend behemoth Centers, get Edey on this team somehow, Sarr PF/Edey C

[Dat2U]

I don’t see a league dominated by skilled smaller guards. I see one increasingly dominated by big guards and wings like Ant, SGA, Murray, Brown and Haliburton.

I'll give you (10) 6-3 and under guys that any team would love to have. Skill still matters. Ja is 6-2 174. Trae 6-1 164. I'm not worried about a guy like Dilly. I'm worried about a guy like Castle who lacks the skills to play PG but is demanding to play it lol.

Jalen Brunson
Kyrie Irving
Stephen Curry
Donovan Mitchell
Tyrese Maxey
Trae Young
Damian Lillard
De'Aaron Fox
Ja Morant
Fred VanVleet

I have nothing against 6-3 and smaller players. And, yes, skill still matters. But there’s a reason why my list of 5 players has 3 All-NBA players and your list of 10 players has 2.

Three of the best players on your list (Curry, Lillard, Irving) are over 30. All of the players on my list are 27 or younger.

There will always be a place in the NBA for skilled small guards, but it's pretty obvious that the future is trending toward longer, taller, bigger guards and wings who can score AND defend.

Ant & Brown are clearly wings. Most wings are 6-5 or taller. Are we having a discussion about PGs who tend to be the shortest guys on the court or about any position in general?

Haliburton is 6-4 but a terrible defender. Murray is 6-4 and poor defender. Height hasn't helped either defend.

***It also hasn't really mattered in terms of personal or team success since most PGs are not impactful defenders.

There's currently no active player that's a true two-way PG. This player only exists in theory atm: i.e. - A guy that's equally imposing offensively as he is defensively. If a PG is a good defender, by default he also a game manager ... it appears that it simply takes too much energy for PGs to be both the engine of the offense and a lock down POA defender***

I've even broken down the top 43 PGs based on their strengths.

Elite offense/no defense (11)
Luka Doncic
Jalen Brunson
Tyrese Haliburton
Damian Lillard
Kyrie Irving
Tyrese Maxey
Jamal Murray
LaMelo Ball
James Harden
Trae Young
Ja Morant

Elite offense/ok defense (3)
Donovan Mitchell
Stephen Curry
De'Aaron Fox

Good offense/bad defense (11)
C.J. McCollum
Malcolm Brogdon
D'Angelo Russell
T.J. McConnell
Bradley Beal
Dejounte Murray
Payton Pritchard
Immanuel Quickley
Darius Garland
Coby White
Tyus Jones

Good offense (game managers) /good defense (5)
Fred VanVleet
Mike Conley
Jrue Holiday
Tre Jones
Chris Paul

Ok offense / bad defense (4)
Josh Giddey
Jaden Ivey
Dennis Schroder
Tre Mann

Bad offense / ok defense (7)
Russell Westbrook
Kyle Lowry
Ben Simmons
Miles McBride
Cason Wallace
Patrick Beverley
Jordan Goodwin

Bad offense/elite defense (2)
Marcus Smart
Dennis Smith Jr

[DCZards]

When I read that 19 yr olds reportedly want to play a certain position in the NBA (PF for Sarr & PG for Castle) I take it with a grain of salt. I expect them to discover that their ability to play 2 or 3 positions will serve them (and their teams) well in today’s NBA.

Castle’s ability to play some PG, some SG and some SG in the league will be one of his strengths.

[tontoz]

Sarr's game tells me he doesn't want to play C. He is undersized for C and seems contact averse.

If he wants to play power forward, he has to become a MUCH better shooter.

Frankly, I'm pretty confident that Bilal will end up as a better power forward than Sarr will. If Sarr is worried about his fit in Atlanta because he wants to play PF, he needs to be just as worried about his fit here. We've got 3 guys who can play PF better than he can.

Which is why i havent been intersted in Sarr all season.

[tontoz]

Sarr's game tells me he doesn't want to play C. He is undersized for C and seems contact averse.

Doesn’t bode well if we need him to battle for rebounds and defend behemoth Centers, get Edey on this team somehow, Sarr PF/Edey C

A 300 pound traffic cone doesnt interest me either.

[nate33]

Ant & Brown are clearly wings. Most wings are 6-5 or taller. Are we having a discussion about PGs who tend to be the shortest guys on the court or about any position in general?

Haliburton is 6-4 but a terrible defender. Murray is 6-4 and poor defender. Height hasn't helped either defend.

***It also hasn't really mattered in terms of personal or team success since most PGs are not impactful defenders.

There's currently no active player that's a true two-way PG. This player only exists in theory atm: i.e. - A guy that's equally imposing offensively as he is defensively. If a PG is a good defender, by default he also a game manager ... it appears that it simply takes too much energy for PGs to be both the engine of the offense and a lock down POA defender***

I've even broken down the top 43 PGs based on their strengths.

Elite offense/no defense (11)
Luka Doncic
Jalen Brunson
Tyrese Haliburton
Damian Lillard
Kyrie Irving
Tyrese Maxey
Jamal Murray
LaMelo Ball
James Harden
Trae Young
Ja Morant

Elite offense/ok defense (3)
Donovan Mitchell
Stephen Curry
De'Aaron Fox

Good offense/bad defense (11)
C.J. McCollum
Malcolm Brogdon
D'Angelo Russell
T.J. McConnell
Bradley Beal
Dejounte Murray
Payton Pritchard
Immanuel Quickley
Darius Garland
Coby White
Tyus Jones

Good offense (game managers) /good defense (5)
Fred VanVleet
Mike Conley
Jrue Holiday
Tre Jones
Chris Paul

Ok offense / bad defense (4)
Josh Giddey
Jaden Ivey
Dennis Schroder
Tre Mann

Bad offense / ok defense (7)
Russell Westbrook
Kyle Lowry
Ben Simmons
Miles McBride
Cason Wallace
Patrick Beverley
Jordan Goodwin

Bad offense/elite defense (2)
Marcus Smart
Dennis Smith Jr

I disagree with some of your assessments, but I totally agree with the overall premise. Elite two-way PG's don't really exist. And for DCZards to use guys like Jaylen Brown and Ant as examples is disingenuous. Those guys are definitely not PGs.

I'd tweak some of your classifications to account for the fact that size does help on defense. So Luka isn't "no defense". He is probably closer to an average NBA defender because he can be hidden on the opposition's worst forward instead of having to actually guard a jitterbug PG one-on-one. Giddey is another guy who is less of a liability within a defensive scheme because he can guard forwards.

I also think it's a little harsh to label some of these guys as "no defense". Trae Young and Damian Lillard play no defense. But guys like Murray, Brunson and Morant are probably in the "bad defense" category. They're not complete liabilities.

[NatP4]

A few mocks have Nikola Topic falling as far as 20th!!

Could we move up from 26th to get him in early 20’s?

Take Sarr and Topic?!

NC just posted a good article on Topic:

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/magic-8-ballers-the-tantalizing-topic?r=37trdd&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Washington seems to be one of the only potential fits in the lottery, along with SAS and Utah. There’s a real chance he drops into the 11/12/13/14 range where he can be acquired in a Kuzma trade. Gotta make that trade.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Sarr's game tells me he doesn't want to play C. He is undersized for C and seems contact averse.

If he wants to play power forward, he has to become a MUCH better shooter.

Frankly, I'm pretty confident that Bilal will end up as a better power forward than Sarr will. If Sarr is worried about his fit in Atlanta because he wants to play PF, he needs to be just as worried about his fit here. We've got 3 guys who can play PF better than he : wink: can.

Which is why i havent been intersted in Sarr all season.

If he doesn’t want to play Center, I honestly think I might prefer Buzelis.

But maybe that’s just me (and maybe Jahidi ).

[DCZards]

Dat, I don’t disagree with most of your breakdown of PGs. What I disagreed with was your initial statement that the league is “still being dominated by skilled smaller guards.” That’s simply not true.

Nate, no where did I suggest that Brown and Ant are PGs. What I was trying to make clear is that players with the size and skills of Brown, Ant, and SGA are the current dominant force in the NBA, imo, and not small guards.

[tontoz]

:wink:

If he wants to play power forward, he has to become a MUCH better shooter.

Frankly, I'm pretty confident that Bilal will end up as a better power forward than Sarr will. If Sarr is worried about his fit in Atlanta because he wants to play PF, he needs to be just as worried about his fit here. We've got 3 guys who can play PF better than he : wink: can.

Which is why i havent been intersted in Sarr all season.

If he doesn’t want to play Center, I honestly think I might prefer Buzelis.

But maybe that’s just me (and maybe Jahidi ).

Buzelis is similar in that his shot needs to improve a lot to be effective at the 4. Plus we already have Deni and Bilal so the fit is an issue.

I want a legit C or pg, not another forward. I would take Sheppard/Clingan at 2 over Buzelis or Sarr.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

If we believe Shepperd can be at least an average defender, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of picking him. Sarr gives me, "struggles to figure things out with the team that drafts him, maybe becomes a rotational, journeyman big that might win a championship because he has name recognition and he eventually signs for the minimum with a title contender" vibes.

I like Clingan too, but maybe at 2 he's a stretch. Holland is intriguing, but a former Ignite players give me a bunch of pause. I just think being on the Ignite instills bad habits for pros right off the bat.

[NatP4]

Sarr's game tells me he doesn't want to play C. He is undersized for C and seems contact averse.

Yeah, really not a C, he’s a large 3/4 with a questionable jump shot.

People are way too quick to assume that he will develop all of the skills that Clingan already has: feel for drop coverage, blocking shots without leaving feet, physicality, offensive/defensive rebounding, boxing out, screen setting (Sarr didn’t set one good screen all year), finishing at the rim, rolling in PNR etc…

[dobrojim]

I like Sheppard but to get to the next level, we will need stronger defenders. That's what helped win Boston their title. OKC is going to get better and better with long defenders. Is Saar a poor man's Chet? Maybe not, but if he can defend most positions and his offense will get better by 2026-27, it's fine. Risacher would be fine at a lower pick, but I think you can say that about almost everybody in this draft. "Yeah, he's ok, but I don't want him at 2."

There's no reason to commit to the Boston model just because Boston won a title. Denver won a title the year before with mediocre defense at the center position and bad defense at the PG and SF positions. I don't see why Sheppard can't be at least as good defensively as Jamaal Murray.

Why are we acting like Sheppard can't play defence. His numbers are solid there it's not like he's a scrub you can't garud anyone.

My concern is based on what I saw in KY's early exit in the NCAAs. KY's defense struggled to stay
in front of people. Shep's individual numbers defensively, ie stocks (steals and blocks) were good.

So which are you gonna believe and/or how are you gonna decide how he will do defending at
the next level? That he is an elite shooter is proven. Not saying he's Durant but POR erred when
they took Oden after Durant had reportedly not missed a shot in his workout with them.
Shep, re Don MacLean, hit 25/25 in a 3 point drill which was unprecedented. That's elite (obviously).
What can he do in a game when the D is geared up to stop him remains to be seen.

I would lean towards taking him but I do trust the new FO to make a wise decision.

[NatP4]

If we believe Shepperd can be at least an average defender, I'm kind of starting to like the idea of picking him.

Sheppard is a well above average defender with a few bad habits, liked to gamble for steals/blocks.

He led Kentucky in defensive rating. Reaves, Wagner, Dillingham, and Edwards ranked bottom 4 on the team in defensive rating and were absolutely terrible on that end.

[dobrojim]

:wink:

If he wants to play power forward, he has to become a MUCH better shooter.

Frankly, I'm pretty confident that Bilal will end up as a better power forward than Sarr will. If Sarr is worried about his fit in Atlanta because he wants to play PF, he needs to be just as worried about his fit here. We've got 3 guys who can play PF better than he : wink: can.

Which is why i havent been intersted in Sarr all season.

If he doesn’t want to play Center, I honestly think I might prefer Buzelis.

But maybe that’s just me (and maybe Jahidi ).

At risk of stating the obvious, and maybe neither of these comps is that realistic,
but if Sarr can become something like Bam or Mobley, he's a very attractive choice.
On the plus side, he's young. Are these comments about him not wanting to play C
coming from him? That would be a bit of a red flag for him, a 19 yo telling his
future employer how he thinks he should be used. I can't know what he says
in private interviews.

[Frichuela]

Read on Twitter

[nate33]

I trust our talent evaluators. I'm glad they brought Sarr in, interviewed him, and worked him out. If they draft him, I'm going to assume it's because they have faith that Sarr will ultimately pan out as a center.

It's going to take a while though. As NatP4 points out, Sarr doesn't really do any of the things that a center needs to do. The next screen he sets will be his first; he's not comfortable at all in drop coverage against a pick-and-roll; and his defensive rebounding is pretty poor (though that might be explained by Perth's scheme as was discussed in an article I posted a while ago).

[Frichuela]

I trust our talent evaluators. I'm glad they brought Sarr in, interviewed him, and worked him out. If they draft him, I'm going to assume it's because they have faith that Sarr will ultimately pan out as a center.

It's going to take a while though. As NatP4 points out, Sarr doesn't really do any of the things that a center needs to do. The next screen he sets will be his first; he's not comfortable at all in drop coverage against a pick-and-roll; and his defensive rebounding is pretty poor (though that might be explained by Perth's scheme as was discussed in an article I posted a while ago).

Agreed. And this may be part of the plan, our FO may have faith in Sarr developing to an optimal level to play center in 3-4 years and, in the meantime, his shortcomings help the tank...let's not forget that our 2026 1st is only top-8 protected...

[Rafael122]

From Jake Fischer:

The Wizards are likely to remain at No. 2 as well, where Washington has the league convinced its focused on selecting Alex Sarr from the Perth Wildcats. The Wizards, according to people familiar with the situation, invested the most time and resources of any NBA club sending various personnel to Australia to evaluate Sarr. This situation is also considered the preferred outcome from Sarr’s camp, as it’s become well known that Sarr has so far declined to work out for Atlanta. Washington does also hold the No. 26 pick and is a prime candidate to potentially move up from that slot, sources said, in addition to the Wizards trying to find a third first-round choice.

Only way we get an additional first is if we trade Kuzma. I'd trade Kuzma for Huerter and the 13th pick. Pick up Sarr at 2, Bub at 13 and BPA at 26.

[DCZards]

From Jake Fischer:

The Wizards are likely to remain at No. 2 as well, where Washington has the league convinced its focused on selecting Alex Sarr from the Perth Wildcats. The Wizards, according to people familiar with the situation, invested the most time and resources of any NBA club sending various personnel to Australia to evaluate Sarr. This situation is also considered the preferred outcome from Sarr’s camp, as it’s become well known that Sarr has so far declined to work out for Atlanta. Washington does also hold the No. 26 pick and is a prime candidate to potentially move up from that slot, sources said, in addition to the Wizards trying to find a third first-round choice.

Only way we get an additional first is if we trade Kuzma. I'd trade Kuzma for Huerter and the 13th pick. Pick up Sarr at 2, Bub at 13 and BPA at 26.

I'd be very happy with Sarr and Carrington. Carrington could turn out to be one of the steals in this draft. I might draft him over some more highly ranked players, like Holland and Collier.

Don't think Carrington will be there at 26 though so we would have to move up to get him.