Superior defender: MJ or LeBron?

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Superior defender: MJ or LeBron?

Jordan
205
67%
LeBron
93
30%
It's a draw
9
3%
 
Total votes: 307

Tottery
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#21 » by Tottery » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:15 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
Lo Wang wrote:
Jordan…recorded 200 steals and 100 blocks in 2 seasons.

.


Unfortunately these type of Jordan stats are no longer admissible in bball discussions. Those are the rules now.


Lets say we allow them. But then we have to us them with the other statement. That Jordan was CLEARLY the best defender over guys like Hakeem.

Block + Steal

87 Jordan 383 Hakeem 360
88 Jordan 390 Hakeem 376

Why don't I see a CLEAR lead here? I see a small one that's mostly due to Hakeem missing a few games.


If Hakeem hit his averages for the 3 games missed in 87-88, he'd still be down. There's no award for "close to being tied for 1st."

To answer the OP's question, it's Jordan. James had flashes of being great, but ultimately stopped giving that effort.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#22 » by EmpireFalls » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:16 pm

Peak for peak, LeBron (more impactful, was a legit rim protector, essentially anchored a title winning defense in 2016)… his ability to switch and help basically held the Heat and Cavs together. Jordan meanwhile wasn’t even the best defender on his own team.

Overall though Jordan gave more effort on that end across their careers. But in terms of actually providing impact the bigger guy is almost always the answer. And I think you guys are really stupid for not realizing this.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#23 » by CBS7 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:16 pm

LeBron was more versatile when he was trying, I'll give him that. He could definitely "guard 1-5" in stretches.
Jordan was unequivocally better at defending positions he's supposed to, though. Tenacious perimeter defender in his prime.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#24 » by dolphinatik » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:17 pm

LeBron could help makeup for team deficiencies on defense but 1:1 defence it's mj and it's not close.

Edit. Let me add Jordan would physically and verbally demoralize his opponents and remove their will to play. He was savage.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#25 » by Bornstellar » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:17 pm

I think peak LeBron had the ability to be a more impactful defensive player and was a legit DPOY candidate, but that was only for like 3-4 seasons. However, over the course of their careers, I'd go with Jordan
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#26 » by fanofthegreats » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:18 pm

Easily LeBron based off available evidence and considering the strength of offensive competition.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#27 » by Woodsanity » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:22 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
Lo Wang wrote:
Jordan…recorded 200 steals and 100 blocks in 2 seasons.

.


Unfortunately these type of Jordan stats are no longer admissible in bball discussions. Those are the rules now.


Lets say we allow them. But then we have to us them with the other statement. That Jordan was CLEARLY the best defender over guys like Hakeem.

Block + Steal

87 Jordan 383 Hakeem 360
88 Jordan 390 Hakeem 376

Why don't I see a CLEAR lead here? I see a small one that's mostly due to Hakeem missing a few games.


I don't care whether you rank MJ over Lebron on defense or vice versa but saying MJ is a better defender than Hakeem is an absolute lolworthy take.

This is the equivalent of saying Kobe was better on defense than Tim Duncan due to more all nba defensive teams....
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#28 » by CBS7 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:23 pm

Kingdibs19 wrote:Lebron had his DPOY robbed from him by a guy that didn’t even make All-NBA first team.


Gasol had a better DWS, DBPM, DRTG, averaged more stocks, and his team finished #2 in DRTG to LeBron's #9.

"robbed"
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#29 » by Birth of the Cool » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:31 pm

Basically youre' asking do you feel MJ is a better defender than Pippen.
Do you value MJ's point of attack defense or Pippen's versatile defense.

I think both are at their peak great defensive players but I tend to lean towards the impact of a more versatile defender with a natural length advantage over the hyper aggressive at point of attack one.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#30 » by bledredwine » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:36 pm

Jordan, considerably. You take any age in their careers, compare and it was Jordan.

And the often heard Lebron guarding 1-5 versatility argument is ridiculous. He spent less than 5% of his time guarding centers and isn't effective as a center defender, so there's no point. Not to mention Jordan could easily guard 1-3 anyway and likely 4 in the modern era where you don't get bashed around.

And the achievements support this.

9 time 1st team defense and Defensive Player of the Year,
on the DPOY lists pretty much every single year in the top 5 with players like Hakeem, Robinson, Payton, Rodman, Alonzo, Mutumbo, Pippen (Jordan was almost always ahead of Pippen in voting and widely considered in best defender of the league discussions, by the way. Love how this board likes to distort Pipp/Jordan defensively)

The revisionist history is "Oh, Jordan wasn't that great at defense. He's just being overhyped as the GOAT".
No, he was absolutely dominant on the defensive end, unlike Lebron. Just look up how his matchups performed compared to their regular stats in the playoffs and you'll begin to understand. Then do the same for Lebron and you'll really understand.
:o LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad :o
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#31 » by theonlyclutch » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:51 pm

(from 15:50)

Elgee is being charitable here, but it's pretty obvious from the tape that MJ plays a high risk style of defense, going for steals and plays and frankly isn't exactly great on discipline (egregious reaching against Magic multiple times in the clip) or awareness (missing rotations). LeBron isn't perfect as a defender but at his best he makes less fundamental mistakes while being more versatile due to his size.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#32 » by bledredwine » Fri Jun 21, 2024 4:57 pm

First, 88 Jordan is in the conversation for greatest perimeter player we've ever seen. IMO it's not that close.
Unfortunately, most people here just don't remember or haven't gotten a chance to see it.

I just want to get that out of the way first.




And what we're not even addressing is the impact each player had on how the rest of their team performed defensively. This is Jordan in a landslide. Just watch how tenacious those Bulls were- Jordan held them constantly accountable.

Now, most people here would have forgotten all of the times Jordan shut down KEY players in the playoffs, and it happened at least one series every year.

copied from https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-case-for-jordan-as-best-perimeter-defender-of-all-time-60343be7bcbd

(videos also in above link)


Playoff Defense and 1–1 Matchups
There probably is not another perimeter player who took on as many tough matchups in the playoffs as Jordan did. There is a misconception that Pippen was the guy who always guarded the other team’s best player in the playoffs, because of the famous story when Pippen switched on Magic in Game 2 of the Finals and did a great job. But in the very next game, Game 3 of the ’91 Finals, Pippen fouled out at the end of the 4th quarter and after Magic had lit up Jordan + Pippen through 4 quarters, Jordan shut down Magic to 0–0–0 with 1 turnover in the OT.
In fact, Jordan had an elite defensive performance in every single one of his NBA Finals, including that Game 3 against Magic.

(look at link up top if you want to see)

’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the ’92 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

Just imagine being Drexler against this defense


Drexler scored 7 on Jordan in game 2, 8 in game 4, and in game 1, nearly all points he had came when MJ wasn't guarding him.
This wasn't a small player like Derrick Rose or hobbled Steph. This was Clyde Drexler.

’93 Finals, Game 3 — Kevin Johnson scored 23 points before Jordan guarded him with 7 minutes left in the 4th quarter. KJ had 2 points the rest of the game including the 3 overtimes. Kevin Johnson is one of 3 players in history (Oscar + Isiah) to average 20–10 for 3 straight years, and before running into Gary Payton in the ’93 WCF, KJ averaged 19.6 ppg and 9.4 apg on 53% in the ’93 Playoffs which was just short of his 20–10 mark.


’96 Finals — With Ron Harper’s knee injury limiting him to 1 minute in both Games 3 and 5, Jordan shut down Gary Payton in both Game 3 and Game 5. Payton had averaged 22–5–7–2 on 50% through 3 rounds in the ’96 Playoffs, while sweeping the 2x defending champion Rockets and beating Stockton/Malone’s Jazz.

’97 and ’98 Finals — Jordan did not guard Stockton for long periods of time, as this was past his defensive peak. Jordan’s off-ball was huge, however, including the Flu game in which all 3 of Jordan’s steals came off of Stockton’s passes. His on-ball on Stockton was also good the few times when he did guard Stockton, and his off-ball and help defense on Karl Malone was also key, including the championship winning steal and shot in Game 6 of the ’98 Finals
:o LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad :o
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#33 » by KokoKaizer » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:00 pm

I'm really tired of those MJ vs Lebron
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#34 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:17 pm

Tottery wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
Unfortunately these type of Jordan stats are no longer admissible in bball discussions. Those are the rules now.


Lets say we allow them. But then we have to us them with the other statement. That Jordan was CLEARLY the best defender over guys like Hakeem.

Block + Steal

87 Jordan 383 Hakeem 360
88 Jordan 390 Hakeem 376

Why don't I see a CLEAR lead here? I see a small one that's mostly due to Hakeem missing a few games.


If Hakeem hit his averages for the 3 games missed in 87-88, he'd still be down. There's no award for "close to being tied for 1st."

To answer the OP's question, it's Jordan. James had flashes of being great, but ultimately stopped giving that effort.


lol, yeah lets just ignore those rebound thingys....but again. He said it was CLEAR which it wasn't even using that metric.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#35 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:21 pm

Woodsanity wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
dockingsched wrote:
Unfortunately these type of Jordan stats are no longer admissible in bball discussions. Those are the rules now.


Lets say we allow them. But then we have to us them with the other statement. That Jordan was CLEARLY the best defender over guys like Hakeem.

Block + Steal

87 Jordan 383 Hakeem 360
88 Jordan 390 Hakeem 376

Why don't I see a CLEAR lead here? I see a small one that's mostly due to Hakeem missing a few games.


I don't care whether you rank MJ over Lebron on defense or vice versa but saying MJ is a better defender than Hakeem is an absolute lolworthy take.

This is the equivalent of saying Kobe was better on defense than Tim Duncan due to more all nba defensive teams....


Please note, the person I was talking to didn't say MJ was better than hakeem. He said it wasn't close. Not even close...
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#36 » by cupcakesnake » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:23 pm

Lo Wang wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:Lebron.
He's just a lot bigger and able to do more as a rim protector and help defender. Lebron was a much more disciplined defender as well.

MJ's a better pure point of attack guy with quicker feet and hands, but he also had a bit of lazy gambling in him. MJ liked to go for steals, and while he generated plenty of them, the trade off wasn't always positive because he left the defense in a bad position.

I think Lebron's point of attack defense got overrated after the series against the Bulls where he guarded D.Rose in spots. The rest of his defense though, is probably underrated by some fans. Prime Lebron covered so much ground and was so good at defensive rotations. Even as an old man conserving his effort, Lebron still impresses me sometimes with his ability to be proactive and rotate to the right spot (even if he's pretty bad at contesting shots or guarding the perimeter now).

They're both good defenders, but Lebron is bringing a larger overall impact on that end.


This is the only time disagree with your take. Jordan was all defensive 1st team 9x and recorded 200 steals and 100 blocks in 2 seasons. Lebron only had five 1st teams and one 2nd team. Jordan could not only school the best players of the opposing team, but score on them as well. I disagree with the "lazy" part of Jordan's defense; he was clearly the best defensive player even when he was playing against some of the best defensive players of his era (Hakeem, Mutombo, Shaq, Pippen, Payton, Rodman, etc.).

I can't say the same with Lebron; prime Lebron was a beast on defense, and he had a good 5 prime defensive years, but Jordan was dominant until he retired and went to the Wizards.


First off, I don't really care about all-defensive selections. That award has improved in recent years, but in general defensive reputation has not always been spot on.

Jordan's defense was loud when it was on. He was definitely a playmaker. His motor, physicial tools, and competitiveness are as good as it gets. When I watch old Bulls footage, I see plenty of undisciplined gambling for Jordan. He was hungry to get the ball. Part of that made him a great defender, but the flip side of that coin is defensive breakdowns because Jordan broke scheme to hunt a steal. Gamblers generate highlights, but it's very rare they come out positive.

I also do not hold Jordan anywhere near Hakeem or Mutombo. I rank Pippen and Rodman over him too (I also rank all those guys over Lebron).

I'm not the biggest fan of Lebron or MJ's defense to be honest, but I think they're both still very good and deserve mentions when we talk about the great defenders.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#37 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:30 pm

bledredwine wrote:Just look up how his matchups performed compared to their regular stats in the playoffs and you'll begin to understand. Then do the same for Lebron and you'll really understand.


If this is 100% true and the gap is MASSIVE! It wouldn't be a good argument for one being better than the other. Most of defense is how you play off ball. Point of attack defense is and has never been as valuable as off ball. This is just such a fundamentally wrong way to discussing the topic.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#38 » by Yank3525 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:46 pm

CBS7 wrote:
Kingdibs19 wrote:Lebron had his DPOY robbed from him by a guy that didn’t even make All-NBA first team.


Gasol had a better DWS, DBPM, DRTG, averaged more stocks, and his team finished #2 in DRTG to LeBron's #9.

"robbed"


LeBron has been selling that stupid narrative for a decade now. Marc was the better candidate. You know who got robbed? Duncan in 2007. I still don't know how Camby won.
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#39 » by ChiTownHero1992 » Fri Jun 21, 2024 5:46 pm

This should not even be a comparison or discussion...come on...
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Re: Superior defender: MJ or LeBron? 

Post#40 » by audiosway » Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:10 pm

sikma42 wrote:Lebron was clearly superior than MJ as a defender. I don’t really think it’s up for debate.

Lebron was even better at guarding Uber quick guards.


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