Superior defender: MJ or LeBron?

[NO-KG-AI]

Jordan. Better consistent pressure at the point of attack, much more disruptive off the ball. LeBron is more switchable, but doesn’t dominate in any particular niche as well.

[Blame Rasho]

*Not an actual argument, just a cool photo of LeBron blocking a 7 footer.

If he blocked Rasho I would have him higher than MJ.

[LaLover11]

LeBron is the greatest fast break defender of all time!
He's also the most versatile that guarded MVP Rose, Durant, PG, Zion, Jokic

That's something MJ could never do!

Read on Twitter

?t=t36EScEfqhVuIjyASKZkBQ&s=19

He rarely guarded those guys ya casual lol

Ok hater

[LakerLegend]

*Not an actual argument, just a cool photo of LeBron blocking a 7 footer.

Better one:

Watch on YouTube

[LaLover11]

*Not an actual argument, just a cool photo of LeBron blocking a 7 footer.

Better one:

Watch on YouTube

It's sad to see so many LeBron Haters that are Laker fans

Read on Twitter

?t=ivVCsNxKibTxFZ8HRUDbzQ&s=19

[durden_tyler]

The problem with allowing this kind of threads is that people will actually think LeBron is a good defender. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LaLover11]

The problem with allowing this kind of threads is that people will actually think LeBron is a good defender. LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MJ was guarding weaker smaller guards lmao imagine having to chase the Splash Bro's 48 mins a game, Prime Durant, Kawhi, MVP Rose lmao

Jordan would cry to Pippen and Rodman to help him

That's like LeBron playing his whole championship run with Kawhi & Dwight. Of course LeBron's defensive numbers would be even better haha

Keep dreaming MJ Stan's

LeBron is the better overall defender because he guarded MVP Rose, SF's, PF's and in certain situations he could guard great centers.... Your boy MJ had to rely on Pippen and Rodman to achieve all that

[OhayoKD]

LeBron was very good some years but it's Jordan here pretty clearly to me. Personally, I think the 'he's bigger and just as good so he's a better defender' idea is a lazy take.

Lazy and correct beats Lazy and wrong...

Even though he was not as big Jordan was just as good or perhaps a better shot blocker than LeBron at his peak.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Nope:

Spoiler:

I wouldn’t say that analysis of 40 possessions in a random game is particularly persuasive of anything.
Alright, then how about we do another one. This time from 1988 when Jordan was the leading shotblocker on his team and 16th in blocks in the whole NBA. The first full game that shows up from CHI vs DET on youtube is Game 3 where Jordan was one of two Chicago players to record a block:

Watch on YouTube

Rim-Load

Distribution went

Oakley 13
Corzine 9
Pippen 8
Grant 6
Jordan 3
Sam Vincient 2
Rory Sparrow 1
Elston Turner 1

(Doesn't add up exactly to 40 as there were a couple splits)

Some notes:
-> rim-load only tracks usage, not efficacy, I'd say Oakley was very effective, Corzine not, Pippen Grant and Vincient were also effective, Sparrow and Turner not.
-> Jordan was very effective the one time the other team drove, but the first 2 times he's credited as the paint-protector were quick possessions where the other team didn't really try to drive.
-> Oakley had the most possessions where if I gave secondary credit he'd also be the #2, Grant and Pippen would come after

Jordan was not even average at the thing you're saying he's better than Lebron at. This is why we use games instead of highlight reels.

Blows him out on steals

Steals which have little to no correlation with team defensive performance?

Jordan with an elite defensive cast from 88/89 full of switchable defenders, most of whom offered far more paint-protection had worse results than 30/31 year old Lebron with a team where the big minute getters were defensive stalwarts Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love

LeBron was very good some years but it's Jordan here pretty clearly to me. Personally, I think the 'he's bigger and just as good so he's a better defender' idea is a lazy take.

Even though he was not as big Jordan was just as good or perhaps a better shot blocker than LeBron at his peak. Blows him out on steals, perimeter defense, etc. His calling card was his intense competitive nature; he'd guard stars and dominate them on both ends.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

But we know that man defense is not as important as actually anchoring a defense, because you're affecting EVERYONE, not just 1 guy. And LeBron did that to a bigger degree than Jordan. It's not that he's "bigger so he's better", it's that he's bigger, stronger, and SMARTER defensively. Actually breaking down game tape of both of them, and Jordan is CLEARLY a guy that takes a ton of risks on defense...he's athletic enough to recover a lot of the time...but a lot of the time he DIDN'T, which nobody will ever make a highlight video of. LeBron doesn't do that, from what I've seen, he actually plays pretty fundamentally sound defense without gambling too much, or when he does, he's shooting a gap after predicting what the offense is going to do based on his ridiculous IQ and memory of offensive sets and tendencies. He's a stronger presence inside and on the glass, it's not an immediate mismatch if he gets matched up against a PF or C, and he's fully capable of defending and shutting down wings and guards as well.

To me, Jordan is a guy that does need strong defensive pieces around him, like Pippen and/or Grant/Rodman, because his high risk high reward style of play does need to be covered for in the instances it doesn't work out. And he's not going to be THE guy for a high level defense. LeBron was that guy for Miami and Cleveland. He was like a mini-Garnett at one point in terms of filling all the holes and being everywhere at once.

And that's backed up by the +/- data as well. We don't have the detailed +/- stats for Jordan, but defensively, the Bulls didn't seem to live or die with Jordan, they basically still sustained a really high level of play with or without him on that end of the floor.

It's not +/- data, it's actual full-games and seasons showing the same story over and over and over again:

lebron 09-21
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing

Over 13 years, some of which were spent playing a position up, and even including moments where he was played at center, Lebron's defenses got nearly 4-points better with him.

There is no way to produce that for a "single" year for Jordan besides deciding the Bulls turnaround from 86 to 87 was actually all jordan even though the Bulls were the same defensively with and without MJ in 86 and Oakley (far and away the team's best paint-protector on top of being a strong man defender that could guard multiple positions) saw a big minutes spike.

Jordan being on Lebron's level defensively is not serious.

[DuallyNoted]

Also no need to bring Hakeem into the argument because he was the best defensive player probably every year he played

[LaLover11]

Also no need to bring Hakeem into the argument because he was the best defensive player probably every year he played

MJ quit in Hakeem's prime

[Blame Rasho]

It is kinda sad or amazing how a non prime Kawhi and Iggy got finals MVPs while being guarded by such a superior defender in Lebron.

[CobraCommander]

I’d say that LeBron didn’t get reputation All-D selections like Jordan and Kobe did, even when he was worthy of it. I thought he was excellent defensively in 2020 for example.

“Stocks” are a really poor way to measure defense, and by extension so is DPM, since it’s based on the box score. We have actual +/- data that shows LeBron being an outstanding historically good wing defender throughout his prime, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. We also have evidence that the box score stats were severely overinflated for Jordan in order to make him look good and help him get that DPOY in 1988.

As defenders, Jordan was much more of a high risk high reward defender who fortunately had excellent defenders flanking him. LeBron is much more fundamentally sound and actually anchors his team and directs his teammates. He diagnoses what the offense is doing and subsequently blows it up. He’s bigger and stronger and far more versatile than Jordan. It’s not just about man defense or box score stats. He’s capable of switching onto bigger players and battling them for position and grabbing rebounds. He’s more of a rim deterrent just because of his size and strength. And as far as his perimeter defense, pretty much it’s just the small quick guards that could attack LeBron better than Jordan…and yet, Westbrook, Rose, and Parker all struggled against him. As did Curry. He didn’t really give up much while anchoring his teams’ defense AND being a much better defender against bigger and stronger players.

LeBron has been far more deserving of a DPOY than Jordan ever was as far as actual defensive impact is concerned. His teams fell apart defensively without him, in the playoffs especially. Jordan’s teams didn’t have that happen.

You have to let us know your age when you make this debate - not that I will discredit you because of youth It’s just I can’t make a nuanced arguement for or against magic and bird cause I only saw the very ends of their careers with mature eyes - with mj and Lebron I saw the entirety of both-


people that watched both of them don’t make this argument. Lebron litterally never went out of his way to stop anyone ever - never had a period where he was focused on defense or being the best defender possible, especially when he realized (based on him stopping being all defense after 30) to be his best he needed to focus on offense and get other guys to play wing defense. In a way, I don’t blame Lebron for being less than Jordan on defense because the league has devalued defense. Even Giannis has stopped being as locked in on defense in an effort to maximize energy expenditure on offense.

I think the question of if LeBron could have been as good as a defender in Jordan’s era or vice versa is more appropriate considering the rules changes

This is such a weak-ass argument. You can literally watch old games in full on YouTube. The human memory is complete ****, hence why eyewitness testimonies are so unreliable in court. Why should a requirement be "I saw him with my eyes 40 years ago"? It's a terrible argument.

I agree with you when it comes to crimes or what ever but sports?

Also you literally telling me someone not being paid to do so is watching grainy ass full you tubes of nba games and judging MJs defensive impact? Man if so, you win this argument because you more invested than I’ll ever be.

But I suspect you a younger than 30 person giving me an opinion on something you didn’t see and I’m telling you there are people that watched both careers in full and they think (not know) that MJ was a better ON BALL defender because Lebron, in HD hasn’t been a great man up defender since he was about 29 - like 10 years ago.

2 points I’ll make- MJs best teams played better defense than Lebrons in a league that allowed more physical defense.

I also will say that Lebron knows defense wasn’t as important in his career as it was in MJs. Of the top 5 guys in the league right now - SGA is considered the best defender - Giannis appears to have stopped caring as much and Giannis, Embiid and Luka are not considered GREaT defenders - where as in MJs day MJs defense was considered part of why he was great- because he was great both ways - but either way- neither of us can definitely win this debate so- good day kind sir

[theonlyclutch]

It is kinda sad or amazing how a non prime Kawhi and Iggy got finals MVPs while being guarded by such a superior defender in Lebron.

It's funny how scoring 16-18 points/game against LBJ is seen as a black mark against LBJ as a defender.

[NbaAllDay]

Most of the people who are able to articulate a clear point in here favour Lebron as the more impactful defender.

However the poll is fairly one sided.

Not saying this is definitive proof but at what point are people going to stop sighting polls as any form of truth on this board? When it comes to MJ (or anti Lebron) it is clear how agenda driven a lot of people are.

I'd almost garauntee most of the voters couldn't string together a coherent argument for MJ.

Fun to see either way.

[SeanieWard]

Resume wise, it'll be MJ because of the DPOY and all defensive teams but on the court, I think Bron is the superior defender. Jordan was a beast. I want to make that clear. But so was Bron. He covers more ground. He's bigger, stronger and faster. If he was allowed to hand check it wouldn't be fair imo And he defended superior talent. I saw him shut down prime DRose in the playoffs, Melo, and others. His chase down block was a thing of beauty and became arguably the biggest defensive play in NBA history in game 7 of the 1-3 finals comeback series. And I think there's a real case to be made that Bron should of won DPOY that one year in Miami when he was possessed. Probably should of been tested for PEDs tbh lol

[therealbig3]

You have to let us know your age when you make this debate - not that I will discredit you because of youth It’s just I can’t make a nuanced arguement for or against magic and bird cause I only saw the very ends of their careers with mature eyes - with mj and Lebron I saw the entirety of both-


people that watched both of them don’t make this argument. Lebron litterally never went out of his way to stop anyone ever - never had a period where he was focused on defense or being the best defender possible, especially when he realized (based on him stopping being all defense after 30) to be his best he needed to focus on offense and get other guys to play wing defense. In a way, I don’t blame Lebron for being less than Jordan on defense because the league has devalued defense. Even Giannis has stopped being as locked in on defense in an effort to maximize energy expenditure on offense.

I think the question of if LeBron could have been as good as a defender in Jordan’s era or vice versa is more appropriate considering the rules changes

This is such a weak-ass argument. You can literally watch old games in full on YouTube. The human memory is complete ****, hence why eyewitness testimonies are so unreliable in court. Why should a requirement be "I saw him with my eyes 40 years ago"? It's a terrible argument.

I agree with you when it comes to crimes or what ever but sports?

Also you literally telling me someone not being paid to do so is watching grainy ass full you tubes of nba games and judging MJs defensive impact? Man if so, you win this argument because you more invested than I’ll ever be.

But I suspect you a younger than 30 person giving me an opinion on something you didn’t see and I’m telling you there are people that watched both careers in full and they think (not know) that MJ was a better ON BALL defender because Lebron, in HD hasn’t been a great man up defender since he was about 29 - like 10 years ago.

2 points I’ll make- MJs best teams played better defense than Lebrons in a league that allowed more physical defense.

I also will say that Lebron knows defense wasn’t as important in his career as it was in MJs. Of the top 5 guys in the league right now - SGA is considered the best defender - Giannis appears to have stopped caring as much and Giannis, Embiid and Luka are not considered GREaT defenders - where as in MJs day MJs defense was considered part of why he was great- because he was great both ways - but either way- neither of us can definitely win this debate so- good day kind sir

Um, yeah? Because we're fans of basketball and typically you want to watch the players you're talking about?

And I did watch both. I was young when MJ was in his prime, but I was around and a fan. But yeah, I have gone back and watched a bunch of whatever footage is available since my memory isn't perfect and I'd like to think I'm a lot smarter and understand a lot more about the game than I did back then. And I didn't even really care for LeBron for most of his career tbh, I was actually a LeBron hater. But facts are facts. I'd argue that watching LeBron in HD...he was a beast of a defender during his prime. I compared him to Garnett before, and I stand by that, I think LeBron was the wing version of Garnett (although not as good as Garnett obviously). That to me is much bigger impact than what Jordan provided.

[Impuniti]

Also no need to bring Hakeem into the argument because he was the best defensive player probably every year he played

MJ quit in Hakeem's prime

So Hakeem was in his prime for only 2 seasons? What happened every other post season when MJ was playing? What is your argument even here, the guy with 3 championships ran away from a guy that's never won because.. he was. . . scared?

I'm legitimately curious what absolutely asinine story you've cooked up in your head!

[therealbig3]

Also no need to bring Hakeem into the argument because he was the best defensive player probably every year he played

MJ quit in Hakeem's prime

So Hakeem was in his prime for only 2 seasons? What happened every other post season when MJ was playing? What is your argument even here, the guy with 3 championships ran away from a guy that's never won because.. he was. . . scared?

I'm legitimately curious what absolutely asinine story you've cooked up in your head!

He didn't run away from Hakeem, but I do think a guy like Hakeem was the perfect counter to Jordan's Bulls at the time. I think it would have been fascinating to see the Bulls face the Rockets with Hakeem at his peak. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see it.

[lessthanjake]

I think it’s worth noting that, yes, steals are very impactful. This is pretty obvious, but I saw a claim here otherwise.

538 did an article on this a while back: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-hidden-value-of-the-nba-steal/. They also did some follow up stuff on it, which you can find links to here: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/steals-are-predictive-but-are-they-that-important/. There’s a lot to this analysis, but basically they regressed impact on box stats and found steals to be the stat that’s most predictive of impact, and then there’s some analysis of why that might be (including that it’s not obviously replaceable like a lot of other box stats are).

I would say that BPM actually is indicative of something similar, with it basically being based on box stats regressed against RAPM, and having steals with a very high coefficient, including as part of DBPM specifically (so it’s really not just about the offensive benefit of steals). So this is yet more indication that steals are highly impactful defensively.

There’s also some analysis that has been run at a team level that back up the value of steals on defensive rating: https://m.numberfire.com/nba/news/3425/the-correlation-between-team-stats-and-offensive-and-defensive-efficiency-part-1-steals

This is intuitively obvious, since steals genuinely end the opponent’s possession, and, at the individual level, are something that are probably uniquely (though not entirely) attributable to the player that does it, compared to other stats. People sometimes counterargue that with steals comes gambling and gambling leads to easy baskets for the opponent, but that’s already priced into the above data that finds that steals correlate quite well with impact.

One thing I want to add to this is that I think the flip side of the gambling thing is that players who go for disruptive plays a lot will have a deterring effect on opponents. If you know that a guy who is fantastic at getting in the passing lanes is lurking nearby, you are going to be less likely to try to make a difficult pass that might lead to an easy bucket. If you choose not to make that pass, the disruptive defender who deters it gets nothing in the stat sheet, but the result of that decision will likely end up being a less efficient shot attempt on that possession. That is impactful. In a sense, this is like the effect of an elite cornerback in American football—their value is less about the interceptions and more about the fact that they shut down whole areas of the field because the offense is afraid that they’ll intercept it. Indeed, Kenny Smith invoked this analogy to Jordan—calling him “the Deion Sanders of basketball” because teams didn’t want to even run plays on his side of the floor. This is also conceptually similar to deterrence by a rim protector—the fact that people are afraid of the blocks alters behavior in a way that actually probably has more impact than the blocks themselves that end up in the stat sheet. Intuitively, I’d think that this deterrence is at its largest with guys that steal balls in the passing lanes—which is something Jordan was incredible at. But it can also come into play with forcing turnovers by ball-handlers. If a player you’re guarding is afraid that you’ll pick his pocket if he drives, he’s more likely to settle for a contested jump shot. Similarly, if a player in the post is afraid that they’ll be stripped when the help comes, they’re more likely to settle for a worse attempt, before the help gets there. Again, when they make that decision, it doesn’t show up in the scoresheet for the guy who deterred the player, but it will have defensive impact.

I think the above is an important concept regarding Jordan’s defense, because the Bulls had one of the best defenses ever, without having an elite rim protector. It’s really unique and requires some explanation regarding how they were able to manage it. And, having watched them, my view is that the biggest reason for it was that they were so disruptive that teams were (probably rightfully) deterred from making high-value passes and in putting the ball on the floor too much, for fear of getting the ball stolen. Jordan wasn’t the only reason for this, of course, but it was something that Jordan was the main protagonist for.

[DuallyNoted]

Getting blocked by Mason Plumlee was probably pretty hilarious during the game thread if anyone can link to that when it happened. I wonder how many "Hey MIke, the pistons are the other team" posts there would have been during an 80s MJ turnover or the same for Bird or Isiah Thomas, etc. but I remember Lebron missing a wide open Carlos Boozer and trying to pass it to Larry Hughes and it went out of bounds and someone posted "goddamnit i told you Lebron sucks and Darko is going to be better" on some other nba forum