Superior defender: MJ or LeBron?

[The4thHorseman]

Out of the finals Lebron’s participated in, a small forward matchup has won Finals MVP four times.

It was bad enough that he chose not to guard Durant.

Please explain.

Meanwhile, Jordan shut down Drexler i the finals during an MVP caliber season. We all remember the layup, steal, championship winner. You don’t remember anything like this from Lebron. You just remember him defending small point guards and getting balled on by Terry, Durant and pre prime Kawhi, and Andre Iguodala winning Finals MVP against him.

fundamentally more sound on defense is ludicrous, by the way. Sorry but Lebron’s just not a very good defender. Career for career, I’d take Kobe every time because I know at least he’d be reliable and not let his matchups go off in the finals nearly half of the time.

And the fans can’t fake us out either. We know what we see, as evidenced by the poll.

LeBron literally has the most memorable defensive play of all-time from the Finals when he had the best defensive performance for a perimeter player of all-time from when he beat the best team of all-time by record after going down 3-1. It's called "the block". During that series, he held the players he was guarding to a 15% lower FG% than they would usually shoot including an eye popping 25% lower shooting percentage at the rim. You think Jordan getting a steal against an inferior opponent is more memorable than that?

LeBron getting his most memorable play against a past prime old role player and having everyone gas it up as GOAT moment is very on brand

Iggy was 32yrs old and avg. 1 less minute per game over the 7gm series than Curry. Guess that means you think Steph was a role player too.

[LaLover11]

Out of the finals Lebron’s participated in, a small forward matchup has won Finals MVP four times.

It was bad enough that he chose not to guard Durant.

Please explain.

Meanwhile, Jordan shut down Drexler i the finals during an MVP caliber season. We all remember the layup, steal, championship winner. You don’t remember anything like this from Lebron. You just remember him defending small point guards and getting balled on by Terry, Durant and pre prime Kawhi, and Andre Iguodala winning Finals MVP against him.

fundamentally more sound on defense is ludicrous, by the way. Sorry but Lebron’s just not a very good defender. Career for career, I’d take Kobe every time because I know at least he’d be reliable and not let his matchups go off in the finals nearly half of the time.

And the fans can’t fake us out either. We know what we see, as evidenced by the poll.

LeBron literally has the most memorable defensive play of all-time from the Finals when he had the best defensive performance for a perimeter player of all-time from when he beat the best team of all-time by record after going down 3-1. It's called "the block". During that series, he held the players he was guarding to a 15% lower FG% than they would usually shoot including an eye popping 25% lower shooting percentage at the rim. You think Jordan getting a steal against an inferior opponent is more memorable than that?

LeBron getting his most memorable play against a past prime old role player and having everyone gas it up as GOAT moment is very on brand

Read on Twitter

[TPA]

MJ had a DPOY gifted to him.

Lebron had his DPOY robbed from him by a guy that didn’t even make All-NBA first team.

Lebron is the better defender and it’s not even close but most casuals will say MJ is better because he has 1 DPOY to Lebron’s 0 and cause the media told them MJ was a GOAT wing defender.

It’s clearly Jordan and anyone who disagrees with me isn’t a serious NBA fan. I wear a suit and tie when I watch basketball and sit with proper posture at a long conference table.

Your smugness trumps his. Therefore, I believe you must have the correct opinion on this matter.

[LaLover11]

Read on Twitter

[bledredwine]

Meanwhile, Jordan shut down Drexler i the finals during an MVP caliber season.

If only it was true:

Colts18 did some tracking of Jordan's defense during the 92 finals against Clyde Drexler, and Drexler shot better against MJ than he did against everyone else by a decent margin. He shot 41% overall, but against Jordan specifically shot 44% while he shot 38% against everyone else.

Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim, and not just field goal percentage, but the full stats.
He didn't include them with good reason- Drexler barely got shots off against Jordan and didn't score much with Jordan covering him.

I'll save you the trouble- here are all of the videos and stats you need to know about that series re: Jordan defending Clyde.

From: https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-case-for-jordan-as-best-perimeter-defender-of-all-time-60343be7bcbd


’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the ’92 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Sorry, you were saying?



Meanwhile... in the finals, some memories of Lebron's finals matchups

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For the umpteenth time, it's not close. If I want to win, I'm taking Jordan and Kobe over Lebron, especially in the finals.

[OhayoKD]

Meanwhile, Jordan shut down Drexler i the finals during an MVP caliber season.

If only it was true:

Colts18 did some tracking of Jordan's defense during the 92 finals against Clyde Drexler, and Drexler shot better against MJ than he did against everyone else by a decent margin. He shot 41% overall, but against Jordan specifically shot 44% while he shot 38% against everyone else.

Don't believe lies you read online.
Obviously, you haven't watched a single game from that series, have you?
Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim.

I've watched all the games. Which is why I'm not running around citing empty block-averages.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=113820346#p113820346

’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down.

Literally none of the actual numbers in this paragraph contradict Colts tracking...

[bledredwine]

If only it was true:

Don't believe lies you read online.
Obviously, you haven't watched a single game from that series, have you?
Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim.

I've watched all the games. Which is why I'm not running around citing empty block-averages.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=113820346#p113820346

’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down.

Literally none of the actual numbers in this paragraph contradict Colts tracking...

Read my post. Colt didn't include volume but just FG% in that post, which is like eliminating all of the context. Jordan locked him down most of the time and the videos are above.

So what if a superstar scores just 3% higher if he scores 8-10 ppg less than normal with that guy covering him?

also from that same thread

Lebron from 09-21
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing



jordan 88-98
bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+1.1 drtg difference
+4 total swing

Then of course, their place in the league.

Jordan 9 time 1st team defense (tied record), Defensive Player of the Year
Lebron 5 time 1st team defense (in many more years playing), no DPOY

So Jordan was 1st team defense nearly twice as many times in 8 less years of playing.

That's all the proof you need, let alone those finals videos I posted directly from the games and Lebron's matchups winning Finals MVP 4 times.

You really have to grasp straws for this one. If you actually believe he's a better defender, you're a fan, plain and simple.

[ScrantonBulls]

Meanwhile, Jordan shut down Drexler i the finals during an MVP caliber season.

If only it was true:

Colts18 did some tracking of Jordan's defense during the 92 finals against Clyde Drexler, and Drexler shot better against MJ than he did against everyone else by a decent margin. He shot 41% overall, but against Jordan specifically shot 44% while he shot 38% against everyone else.

Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim, and not just field goal percentage, but the full stats.
He didn't include them with good reason- Drexler barely got shots off against Jordan and didn't score much with Jordan covering him.

I'll save you the trouble- here are all of the videos and stats you need to know about that series re: Jordan defending Clyde.

From: https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-case-for-jordan-as-best-perimeter-defender-of-all-time-60343be7bcbd


’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the ’92 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Sorry, you were saying?



Meanwhile... in the finals, some memories of Lebron's finals matchups

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For the umpteenth time, it's not close. If I want to win, I'm taking Jordan and Kobe over Lebron, especially in the finals.

"Undisputedgoat" is your source Surely that can't be a biased source. What's next, you get your news from Truth social posts?

[lessthanjake]

I’d say that LeBron didn’t get reputation All-D selections like Jordan and Kobe did, even when he was worthy of it. I thought he was excellent defensively in 2020 for example.

“Stocks” are a really poor way to measure defense, and by extension so is DPM, since it’s based on the box score. We have actual +/- data that shows LeBron being an outstanding historically good wing defender throughout his prime, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. We also have evidence that the box score stats were severely overinflated for Jordan in order to make him look good and help him get that DPOY in 1988.

As defenders, Jordan was much more of a high risk high reward defender who fortunately had excellent defenders flanking him. LeBron is much more fundamentally sound and actually anchors his team and directs his teammates. He diagnoses what the offense is doing and subsequently blows it up. He’s bigger and stronger and far more versatile than Jordan. It’s not just about man defense or box score stats. He’s capable of switching onto bigger players and battling them for position and grabbing rebounds. He’s more of a rim deterrent just because of his size and strength. And as far as his perimeter defense, pretty much it’s just the small quick guards that could attack LeBron better than Jordan…and yet, Westbrook, Rose, and Parker all struggled against him. As did Curry. He didn’t really give up much while anchoring his teams’ defense AND being a much better defender against bigger and stronger players.

LeBron has been far more deserving of a DPOY than Jordan ever was as far as actual defensive impact is concerned. His teams fell apart defensively without him, in the playoffs especially. Jordan’s teams didn’t have that happen.

I totally agree that BPM and its derivatives are fairly crude from the standpoint of interpretation, but when used with a large enough sample size it is as good as any other metric,

BPM's own creator literally included an adjustment for BPM 3.0 to counter Jordan (and high-stat guards) being overrated relative to bigger players.

All-in-ones are fancy eye-tests. They're not objective data.

You are referring to a very micro-level point that was made (by you) during the formulation of BPM 3.0 regarding an aspect of the formula that BPM 3.0 is newly introducing (and that therefore was in the process of being constructed). You aren’t referring to an adjustment made to something that is actually part of BPM 2.0.

Nor are you referring to the BPM creator having a general sense that BPM meaningfully overrates Jordan, and certainly not in comparison to LeBron. In fact, we can see from the charts in the About BPM page that plot out RAPM vs. BPM 2.0 that LeBron is actually substantially further above the trend line than Jordan is—which suggests that LeBron falls further on the side of being overrated by BPM than Jordan does. Specifically, Jordan’s 1997-2001 time period has a BPM that is 1.313 above the trend line, while LeBron’s 2002-2006, 2007-2011, and 2012-2016 timeframes have BPM that is 2.979, 3.198, and 2.196 above the trend line respectively. This holds true even for just DBPM, with LeBron’s time periods all having DBPM notably further above the trend line than Jordan’s 1997-2001 time period. Of course, that’s just plotting using RAPM that only exists for part of Jordan’s career, so we don’t know for sure if this stuff would hold true for earlier in Jordan’s career. But, at the very least, what we do know suggests that BPM overrates LeBron relative to impact more than it does for Jordan.

[bledredwine]

If only it was true:

Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim, and not just field goal percentage, but the full stats.
He didn't include them with good reason- Drexler barely got shots off against Jordan and didn't score much with Jordan covering him.

I'll save you the trouble- here are all of the videos and stats you need to know about that series re: Jordan defending Clyde.

From: https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-case-for-jordan-as-best-perimeter-defender-of-all-time-60343be7bcbd


’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the ’92 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Sorry, you were saying?



Meanwhile... in the finals, some memories of Lebron's finals matchups

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For the umpteenth time, it's not close. If I want to win, I'm taking Jordan and Kobe over Lebron, especially in the finals.

"Undisputedgoat" is your source Surely that can't be a biased source. What's next, you get your news from Truth social posts?

Yep! All of his stats have been reliable so far!

Go ahead and check on them I get it, you're desperate and really have nothing to say here.

What about those videos, hmm? Are those fake too?

[ScrantonBulls]

Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim, and not just field goal percentage, but the full stats.
He didn't include them with good reason- Drexler barely got shots off against Jordan and didn't score much with Jordan covering him.

I'll save you the trouble- here are all of the videos and stats you need to know about that series re: Jordan defending Clyde.

From: https://undisputedgoat.medium.com/the-case-for-jordan-as-best-perimeter-defender-of-all-time-60343be7bcbd


’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down. Jordan also shut down Terry Porter, who averaged 21.6 PPG with 52% FG and 47% 3PT in the ’92 Playoffs. He is the only player to average at least 15 PPG on 50% FG and 45% 3PT in an NBA Finals run (min. 1.5 3PA/game).

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Sorry, you were saying?



Meanwhile... in the finals, some memories of Lebron's finals matchups

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

For the umpteenth time, it's not close. If I want to win, I'm taking Jordan and Kobe over Lebron, especially in the finals.

"Undisputedgoat" is your source Surely that can't be a biased source. What's next, you get your news from Truth social posts?

Yep! All of his stats have been reliable so far!

Go ahead and check on them I get it, you're desperate and really have nothing to say here.

What about those videos, hmm? Are those fake too?

lol at posting highlight reels as your "proof". From the YouTube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan". Surely that channel Wouldn't be biased at all Wouldn't be surprised if that was your channel. This is why your arguments are never taken seriously. You post highlight clips then scurry away when people use logic, context and stats.

[OhayoKD]

Don't believe lies you read online.
Obviously, you haven't watched a single game from that series, have you?
Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim.

I've watched all the games. Which is why I'm not running around citing empty block-averages.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=113820346#p113820346

’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down.

Literally none of the actual numbers in this paragraph contradict Colts tracking...

Read my post. Colt didn't include volume but just FG% in that post, which is like eliminating all of the context.

Simply guarding a player who plays your position more does not mean you "shut him down", particularly when he shoots 6 points better against you.

Jordan locked him down most of the time and the videos are above.

Yeah, they are. Have you watched them? I only needed to wait 27 seconds in video 2 to see "lockdown defense" where Jordan gets dribbled past and Grant stops him cold. I just needed to wait 50 seconds to see it happen again, except this time Jordan's teammates can't bail him out.

Why don't we actually track what happens here.

Possession 1: Jordan gets caught on a screen giving drexler time to kick it out

Possession 2: Jordan gets dribbled past, Horace Grant cleans up

Possession 3: Drexler has Jordan scrambling, makes him fall too far back, exploits this by giving his teammate a hand-off leaving him with acres of space, and then creates even more by catching Jordan and Pippen with a screen

Possession 4: Drexler dribbles by Jordan again, converts

Possession 5: Drexler draws a double, creates separation, fakes jordan out for a pass, Jordan's teammate deflects it, Drexler prevents the turnover

Possession 6: Intercepts a pass, his first positive play this video

Possession 7: Stonewalls Drexler for a few seconds, Drexler passes it away. second positive play this video

Possession 8: Is baited out of position by a pass-fake, prevented from recovering by a screen, Drexler capitalizes with a dunk

Possession 9: Jordan contests late, Drexler misses anyway

Possession 10: Jordan and Grant successfully prevent Drexler from receiving a pass

Possession 11 Weak contest, Drexler misses anyway

I'll let someone who actually watched summarize:

To be honest. Jordan played bad defense most of this game. Just very good help defense by the bigs.

I'd suggest only posing youtube clips you've actually watched. Maybe then we can avoid presenting Jordan getting cooked repeatedly as "lockdown defense".

[lessthanjake]

https://youtu.be/HcTT5X5BCns?si=kjhIdGSbyWe8ioxi

If you go to 9:50 in the video, you see Kenny Smith talking about something that I think is really important regarding Jordan’s defense. I touched on this in an earlier post, but want to highlight it again now that I’ve found this video.

Kenny Smith says about Jordan: “If you look at Michael, he’d have the correct hand in the passing lane. Defensively, he’s the only guy, he’s the Deion Sanders of basketball, where you wouldn’t run a play on his side of the court because he could defensively stop that side of the court.”

This is a hugely important point about Jordan’s defense IMO. What made those Bulls teams one of the greatest defenses ever (including having very arguably the best playoff defense ever) despite not having an elite rim protector is, in large part, that they just uniquely constricted what teams could reasonably do. You can’t make a high-value pass if you’re too worried a defender is just going to get his hand on the ball. You can’t take that extra dribble in the post to get better position or on a drive to get closer to the basket if you’re too worried about being stripped. So you settle for something worse, just as an offense might settle for a worse pass rather than throw it near Deion Sanders. That doesn’t show up in the stat sheet for the defensive player whose disruptive ability is deterring the offense from taking valuable actions, but that is very impactful—just like how Deion Sanders’ impact was really mostly the deterrence rather than the actual interceptions he ended up getting. As Kenny Smith suggests, Jordan was perhaps the best in history at this kind of deterrence, and it was a massive part of what made those Bulls defenses so elite. He wasn’t the only one having this kind of effect for the Bulls, but he was definitely the most important in this regard.

Ultimately, it’s great for big men to deter players from shooting near the rim. That’s typically an integral part of having an elite defense! But it can actually be just as effective to deter the pass or dribble that gets the player the ball near the rim in the first place. That’s what Jordan did, and that’s how the Bulls were able to be an all-time defense without elite rim protection.

[therealbig3]

https://youtu.be/HcTT5X5BCns?si=kjhIdGSbyWe8ioxi

If you go to 9:50 in the video, you see Kenny Smith talking about something that I think is really important regarding Jordan’s defense. I touched on this in an earlier post, but want to highlight it again now that I’ve found this video.

Kenny Smith says about Jordan: “If you look at Michael, he’d have the correct hand in the passing lane. Defensively, he’s the only guy, he’s the Deion Sanders of basketball, where you wouldn’t run a play on his side of the court because he could defensively stop that side of the court.”

This is a hugely important point about Jordan’s defense IMO. What made those Bulls teams one of the greatest defenses ever (including having very arguably the best playoff defense ever) despite not having an elite rim protector is, in large part, that they just uniquely constricted what teams could reasonably do. You can’t make a high-value pass if you’re too worried a defender is just going to get his hand on the ball. You can’t take that extra dribble in the post to get better position or on a drive to get closer to the basket if you’re too worried about being stripped. So you settle for something worse, just as an offense might settle for a worse pass rather than throw it near Deion Sanders. That doesn’t show up in the stat sheet for the defensive player whose disruptive ability is deterring the offense from taking valuable actions, but that is very impactful—just like how Deion Sanders’ impact was really mostly the deterrence rather than the actual interceptions he ended up getting. As Kenny Smith suggests, Jordan was perhaps the best in history at this kind of deterrence, and it was a massive part of what made those Bulls defenses so elite. He wasn’t the only one having this kind of effect for the Bulls, but he was definitely the most important in this regard.

Ultimately, it’s great for big men to deter players from shooting near the rim. That’s typically an integral part of having an elite defense! But it can actually be just as effective to deter the pass or dribble that gets the player the ball near the rim in the first place. That’s what Jordan did, and that’s how the Bulls were able to be an all-time defense without elite rim protection.

You’re giving the majority of the credit to Jordan but why not Pippen, or Grant, or Rodman, or Cartwright, or Oakley before them?

Jordan was great, but you can be great and overrated. These kind of anecdotal stories is kind of what I’m talking about, I’ve heard this one before and it’s going to make Jordan sound amazing, but the reality is that he had his defensive weaknesses as well that were covered up by strong defensive teammates, and the actual objective data that’s been posted shows that the Bulls barely noticed a difference without Jordan. How would that be possible if he’s shutting down an entire area of the court single-handedly as the Deion Sanders of basketball and opposing players were just too scared to attack him off the dribble and forced up tough shots instead because they were scared of getting pick pocketed? The story doesn’t really line up with the facts here.

Thinking Basketball broke down Jordan and LeBron as part of their greatest peaks series, and IIRC, concluded that Jordan was a very good, even great, All-NBA level wing defender, but wasn’t historically good at that position, while LeBron was, while acknowledging both of their respective strengths and weaknesses. And that’s primarily breaking down film with a little bit of numbers to back it up.

Idk the with/without that was posted before is pretty damn convincing. That’s over YEARS, and even included post prime LeBron when he was supposedly not even playing good defense anymore. Meanwhile, Jordan’s numbers were posted almost as a response, and it doesn’t look nearly as impressive.

[therealbig3]

Btw, with regards to Durant “exposing” LeBron, with regards to the 2012 Finals, there was a breakdown between Durant’s shooting numbers vs Battier, Wade, and LeBron in those Finals as his primary defenders, and LeBron held him to easily his worst shooting numbers.

2017 and 2018 when defenders were more scared of a Curry 3 than a KD dunk? We’re gonna use those seasons? Really?

Would like to see the breakdown regardless though with LeBron vs other Durant defenders in that series.

[Bergmaniac]

Thia thread is even funnier than I expected, you van always rely on the Jordan fanboys for hilarious takes in these threads.

[therealbig3]

Don't believe lies you read online.
Obviously, you haven't watched a single game from that series, have you?
Post a link, by the way, if you're going to make such a claim.

I've watched all the games. Which is why I'm not running around citing empty block-averages.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=113820346#p113820346

’92 Finals — Drexler, a top 5 SG of all-time, had 25 ppg on a poor 40.7% FG in the ’92 Finals after 25 ppg on 47% in the regular season, and most of his points came in transition or on other defenders when Jordan was not guarding him. Jordan completely locked him down.

Literally none of the actual numbers in this paragraph contradict Colts tracking...

Read my post. Colt didn't include volume but just FG% in that post, which is like eliminating all of the context. Jordan locked him down most of the time and the videos are above.

So what if a superstar scores just 3% higher if he scores 8-10 ppg less than normal with that guy covering him?

also from that same thread

Lebron from 09-21
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing



jordan 88-98
bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+1.1 drtg difference
+4 total swing

Then of course, their place in the league.

Jordan 9 time 1st team defense (tied record), Defensive Player of the Year
Lebron 5 time 1st team defense (in many more years playing), no DPOY

So Jordan was 1st team defense nearly twice as many times in 8 less years of playing.

That's all the proof you need, let alone those finals videos I posted directly from the games and Lebron's matchups winning Finals MVP 4 times.

You really have to grasp straws for this one. If you actually believe he's a better defender, you're a fan, plain and simple.

I’m sorry, but you’re going to highlight the All-D and DPOY awards (the media driven awards) but ignore that you just posted LeBron’s teams falling apart on both sides of the ball without him, while Jordan’s teams saw a much smaller drop off and barely any on defense?

You just proved LeBron’s case here.

[bledredwine]

I've watched all the games. Which is why I'm not running around citing empty block-averages.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=113820346#p113820346



Literally none of the actual numbers in this paragraph contradict Colts tracking...

Read my post. Colt didn't include volume but just FG% in that post, which is like eliminating all of the context. Jordan locked him down most of the time and the videos are above.

So what if a superstar scores just 3% higher if he scores 8-10 ppg less than normal with that guy covering him?

also from that same thread

Lebron from 09-21
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing



jordan 88-98
bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+1.1 drtg difference
+4 total swing

Then of course, their place in the league.

Jordan 9 time 1st team defense (tied record), Defensive Player of the Year
Lebron 5 time 1st team defense (in many more years playing), no DPOY

So Jordan was 1st team defense nearly twice as many times in 8 less years of playing.

That's all the proof you need, let alone those finals videos I posted directly from the games and Lebron's matchups winning Finals MVP 4 times.

You really have to grasp straws for this one. If you actually believe he's a better defender, you're a fan, plain and simple.

I’m sorry, but you’re going to highlight the All-D and DPOY awards (the media driven awards) but ignore that you just posted LeBron’s teams falling apart on both sides of the ball without him, while Jordan’s teams saw a much smaller drop off and barely any on defense?

You just proved LeBron’s case here.

Ironic. If Lebron won more 1st team defense or a DPOY, you'd be bringing it up all the time.
You guys are really reaching in this thread, a testament to the difference between these two players.

Jordan was known as one of the best defensive player in the league, period.
Lebron was only in the conversation for a stretch, and this is without Hakeem, Robinson, etc in the league.

[therealbig3]

Read my post. Colt didn't include volume but just FG% in that post, which is like eliminating all of the context. Jordan locked him down most of the time and the videos are above.

So what if a superstar scores just 3% higher if he scores 8-10 ppg less than normal with that guy covering him?

also from that same thread

Lebron from 09-21
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing



jordan 88-98
bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+1.1 drtg difference
+4 total swing

Then of course, their place in the league.

Jordan 9 time 1st team defense (tied record), Defensive Player of the Year
Lebron 5 time 1st team defense (in many more years playing), no DPOY

So Jordan was 1st team defense nearly twice as many times in 8 less years of playing.

That's all the proof you need, let alone those finals videos I posted directly from the games and Lebron's matchups winning Finals MVP 4 times.

You really have to grasp straws for this one. If you actually believe he's a better defender, you're a fan, plain and simple.

I’m sorry, but you’re going to highlight the All-D and DPOY awards (the media driven awards) but ignore that you just posted LeBron’s teams falling apart on both sides of the ball without him, while Jordan’s teams saw a much smaller drop off and barely any on defense?

You just proved LeBron’s case here.

Ironic. If Lebron won more 1st team defense or a DPOY, you'd be bringing it up all the time.
You guys are really reaching in this thread, a testament to the difference between these two players.

Jordan was known as one of the best defensive player in the league, period.
Lebron was only in the conversation for a stretch, and this is without Hakeem, Robinson, etc in the league.

Jordan wasn’t in the conversation with Hakeem and Robinson either lol.

Also I don’t care about DPOY or All-D selections, I care about objective evidence. Kobe was getting All-D selections way after he deserved them. Duncan never won a DPOY. That stuff is all media driven and narrative based. And nobody had bigger media support and narratives behind him than Jordan.

LeBron for example never got the media All-D selections. As soon as people thought he MIGHT have been slipping on D, he stopped getting picked. Was not treated anywhere near the same as Jordan or Kobe in that regard.

[bledredwine]

I’m sorry, but you’re going to highlight the All-D and DPOY awards (the media driven awards) but ignore that you just posted LeBron’s teams falling apart on both sides of the ball without him, while Jordan’s teams saw a much smaller drop off and barely any on defense?

You just proved LeBron’s case here.

Ironic. If Lebron won more 1st team defense or a DPOY, you'd be bringing it up all the time.
You guys are really reaching in this thread, a testament to the difference between these two players.

Jordan was known as one of the best defensive player in the league, period.
Lebron was only in the conversation for a stretch, and this is without Hakeem, Robinson, etc in the league.

Jordan wasn’t in the conversation with Hakeem and Robinson either lol.

wrong. look at the DPOY and player interviews, or watch games lol