Harden vs Curry (Offense)

[Lebronnygoat]

I think James Harden is arguably as good as Curry on the offensive end. Perhaps better even due to the fact that, if he had a team optimizing him like how LeBron and Curry had, he’d be not only individually producing (already has) but also producing goat lvl or ATG offenses (done it once in the regular season) in the playoffs & regular season.

I think his on ball playmaking clears Curry’s and the off ball is heavily in favor for Curry, only thing Harden does is occasionally cut (especially after passing) and catch and shoot 3’s. Though, as far as on ball vs off ball, on ball is more generally impactful. At least Harden’s off ball isn’t doing negatives for the team and is allowing 4x4 offense with him having occasional movement and spot up 3’s if his defender bails. Curry on the other hand can make costly mistakes due to his on ball playmaking. He also has the benefit of an amazing system and how I said a team that optimizes him, unlike Harden.

Scoring wise, Harden is probably better in the regular season, but in the playoffs Curry has it, though it is slight when factoring tougher lvls of defensive competition they’re going up against.

Thoughts?

[Throwawaytheone]

.

[Lebronnygoat]

I don't really care to weigh in on this "debate" too much, but I will note that Harden has been as well optimized as any offensive star ever, with amazing spacing/shooters/rollers over his entire career, even when his cast looks bad. Curry has never had his production optimized like this, the team is always built in a way to maximise their odds of winning, which involves defense and giving large roles to players who can't roll or space the floor meaningfully.

Hard disagree, Harden’s best teammates before 2018 was Parsons and Ariza that fit his mold. Howard optimized his passing threat driving but I mean anyone that’s competent enough as a center can, I mean look at Clint Capela. Then an injury riddled and aging CP3 came along who missed a lot of the regular season, and Harden was still able to make that team an ATG offense with Eric Gordon, Capela and Ariza. Then in 2020 he gets Russ, which seemed well in the regular season (still wasn’t optimizing Harden) but in the postseason he gets hurt and is just a decoy basically, except he can’t shoot, from anywhere lol. So harden gets box and one + doubled constantly, which happened anyway in the regular season.

Curry on the other hand, had Green run the offense many times through his on ball playmaking in & out the post, and a system that greatly optimized players like Curry (Reggie miller for example) with threats like Klay, Durant, Barnes, & other role players that can shoot (Poole, Cook, Livingston) sometimes Iggy, and amazing screen setters (got away with a lot of illegal stuff).
Always had the squad healthy too until 2019 in the finals. Meanwhile, Harden was playing with a Howard on a torn MCL after ‘14, injured Pat Bev, injured Russ, injured House Jr, injured Rivers, injured CP3.

Curry’s squad definitely maximized him more than Harden.

[OhayoKD]

I think James Harden is arguably as good as Curry on the offensive end. Perhaps better even due to the fact that, if he had a team optimizing him like how LeBron and Curry had, he’d be not only individually producing (already has) but also producing goat lvl or ATG offenses (done it once in the regular season) in the playoffs & regular season.

I think his on ball playmaking clears Curry’s and the off ball is heavily in favor for Curry, only thing Harden does is occasionally cut (especially after passing) and catch and shoot 3’s. Though, as far as on ball vs off ball, on ball is more generally impactful. At least Harden’s off ball isn’t doing negatives for the team and is allowing 4x4 offense with him having occasional movement and spot up 3’s if his defender bails. Curry on the other hand can make costly mistakes due to his on ball playmaking. He also has the benefit of an amazing system and how I said a team that optimizes him, unlike Harden.

Scoring wise, Harden is probably better in the regular season, but in the playoffs Curry has it, though it is slight when factoring tougher lvls of defensive competition they’re going up against.

Thoughts?

On-ball is more impactful, even for steph, but as the first volume off-ball creator in history it gives him some wiggle-room here

[SportsGuru08]

The only question that matters is "Who's better in the playoffs?" That should answer your question right there.

[rk2023]

He’s produced what now in the postseason?

At that, I’d argue Harden was maximized more than LeBron or Curry - from a tactical (and refereeing) standpoint moreso than the supporting cast

[jalengreen]

Harden’s playmaking ability is why I want him on-ball, so I don’t worry much about his relative off-ball deficiency. I think the Nets are a good example of this; played with ridiculously talented co-stars in KD and Kyrie, and the team operated best when Harden was the primary ballhandler leading the offense. So despite his on-ball dominance, it’s not like he can’t lead amazing team success while playing with stars who like the ball in their hands - quite the opposite. 2018 Rockets w/ CP3 the other obvious example. And not to be a Hypothetical Harry, but both of those teams really should’ve won a championship as well, but alas.

Anyway, evaluating Curry precisely has always been tough to me because he’s had the fortune of playing with Draymond his entire career and Draymond is absolutely instrumental to the off-ball role Steph has mastered within the GSW system. Prolly take Steph anyway but certainly a holdup that I have

[Throwawaytheone]

.

[OverAndOut]

Harden’s playmaking ability is why I want him on-ball, so I don’t worry much about his relative off-ball deficiency. I think the Nets are a good example of this; played with ridiculously talented co-stars in KD and Kyrie, and the team operated best when Harden was the primary ballhandler leading the offense. So despite his on-ball dominance, it’s not like he can’t lead amazing team success while playing with stars who like the ball in their hands - quite the opposite. 2018 Rockets w/ CP3 the other obvious example. And not to be a Hypothetical Harry, but both of those teams really should’ve won a championship as well, but alas.

Anyway, evaluating Curry precisely has always been tough to me because he’s had the fortune of playing with Draymond his entire career and Draymond is absolutely instrumental to the off-ball role Steph has mastered within the GSW system. Prolly take Steph anyway but certainly a holdup that I have

I can’t remember which episode, but there was a Thinking Basketball podcast where Ben mentioned that when Harden/CP3 were on the court together, HOU had something like a +12 offense which is insane. That would have easily been the greatest regular season offense of all-time (2004 DAL is #1 with +9.2)

I also would still take Curry to answer the question, but I don’t think it’s some massive gap between the 2.

[migya]

Harden’s playmaking ability is why I want him on-ball, so I don’t worry much about his relative off-ball deficiency. I think the Nets are a good example of this; played with ridiculously talented co-stars in KD and Kyrie, and the team operated best when Harden was the primary ballhandler leading the offense. So despite his on-ball dominance, it’s not like he can’t lead amazing team success while playing with stars who like the ball in their hands - quite the opposite. 2018 Rockets w/ CP3 the other obvious example. And not to be a Hypothetical Harry, but both of those teams really should’ve won a championship as well, but alas.

Anyway, evaluating Curry precisely has always been tough to me because he’s had the fortune of playing with Draymond his entire career and Draymond is absolutely instrumental to the off-ball role Steph has mastered within the GSW system. Prolly take Steph anyway but certainly a holdup that I have

In 2015 Warriors won 67 games, same as in 2017 with Durant, won ofcourse won the championship and Curry was the playmaker, averaging 7.7asts, while Draymond averaged 3.7asts. Draymond after that season was the lead playmaker but Curry has not been far off.

[Throwawaytheone]

.

[Lebronnygoat]

I don't really care to weigh in on this "debate" too much, but I will note that Harden has been as well optimized as any offensive star ever, with amazing spacing/shooters/rollers over his entire career, even when his cast looks bad. Curry has never had his production optimized like this, the team is always built in a way to maximise their odds of winning, which involves defense and giving large roles to players who can't roll or space the floor meaningfully.

Hard disagree, Harden’s best teammates before 2018 was Parsons and Ariza that fit his mold. Howard optimized his passing threat driving but I mean anyone that’s competent enough as a center can, I mean look at Clint Capela. Then an injury riddled and aging CP3 came along who missed a lot of the regular season, and Harden was still able to make that team an ATG offense with Eric Gordon, Capela and Ariza. Then in 2020 he gets Russ, which seemed well in the regular season (still wasn’t optimizing Harden) but in the postseason he gets hurt and is just a decoy basically, except he can’t shoot, from anywhere lol. So harden gets box and one + doubled constantly, which happened anyway in the regular season.

Curry on the other hand, had Green run the offense many times through his on ball playmaking in & out the post, and a system that greatly optimized players like Curry (Reggie miller for example) with threats like Klay, Durant, Barnes, & other role players that can shoot (Poole, Cook, Livingston) sometimes Iggy, and amazing screen setters (got away with a lot of illegal stuff).
Always had the squad healthy too until 2019 in the finals. Meanwhile, Harden was playing with a Howard on a torn MCL after ‘14, injured Pat Bev, injured Russ, injured House Jr, injured Rivers, injured CP3.

Curry’s squad definitely maximized him more than Harden.

Almost all of this is wrong on a lot of levels. The following stats exclude Harden and Curry obviously
14 Rockets: 7 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Rockets: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Rockets: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Rockets: 5 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (6 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (10 taking 3+ attempts)

14 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Warriors: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Warriors: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)

Of course, this isn't the perfect measure of spacing. I know that. But it's pretty decent and is indicative of what we see on the floor, the Rockets always surround Harden with better spacers than the Warriors do Curry, and that's evidenced by one being offensively slanted and the other being defensively slanted. I included a % and volume stat, but I actually think the volume only stat is more important because it's more reflective of who the designated shooters are, defenses worry about them and guard them which is often why they might not crack the % barrier. It really shows the disparity between the roster construction philosophy of the Warriors and the Rockets.

I'd also like to note that all of Curry's seasons included Draymond taking 3+ attempts, but he obviously never spaced the floor for Curry, so he shouldn't even be included but I did anyways.

You spoke about how Harden had Russ next to him as a primary ballhandler and he couldn't shoot so teams sagged way off him, leading to Harden doubles and box-and-1s... Oh the horror... Now imagine dealing with that your entire prime, and having a player like that who can't even finish plays or attack the rim or roll like a normal bigman. That reminds me, we haven't even gotten to discussing roll-men where obviously the Rockets were way better. You called Howard's abilities something any competent bigmen can do, but that's just the thing, Curry has never had a Howard or Capela, he has gotten Looney and Zaza and Draymond, who aren't even meeting that standard, let alone being as good as the aforementioned 2 at attracting defenders in the PnR and finishing plays (we'll get to that.)

You also had this strange point about listing all the players the Rockets had, and just prefacing it with "injured" like that suddenly meant they don't exist or were never healthy. Not sure what that was about.

I don't deny that the Warriors supporting casts were good. The thing is, the addition of Durant didn't help Curry's box score statistics at all, all it did was lower his scoring output and put him out of rhythm temporarily in the 17 RS. Durant obviously made it WAY easier for Curry to win games, but not to pad his stats, whereas the roleplayers the Rockets had do that much better for Harden. That specifically pertains to PnR partners, which is crucial for a modern guard to rack up stats. They need that big that can roll well and finish adequately, so they have someone to get assists from, and they need that big man to have roll gravity opening up layups for the ballhandler, or free throws. They also need shooters to get assists from, and to space the floor to allow for direct mismatch hunting and easier shots. These are traits the Warriors had far less of compared to the Rockets.

That doesn't even get into the Warriors playstyle, where Curry running offball constantly (while it does unlock shots for him) isn't as effective as racking up triple doubles spamming PnR. We can see that because every season some new guard running that same helio-ball style racks up more gaudy stats than Curry, and every season the conversation is "Has Curry been surpassed?" And every season that conversation quickly dies down until a new guy comes in. It's not like Curry was ever incapable of mimicking that style, he deals with more physicality than any star guard in the league and has better cardio than literally any other player in the league, while having a unique combination of shotmaking, burst, ballhandling and passing neccecary for that playtype, hence why his PnRs are so efficient. He just has a coach that despises it. In the 2014 season before Kerr came on, and importantly, before he even entered his prime, he was averaging 24/9 on 113 TS+. Harden literally has never averaged those stats, despite having all the advantages to do so.

One last section to debunk: You mention how Curry has Draymond to maximise his onball playmaking, but Draymond doesn't often finish the play in the PnR, and most of the times he does it's a fake handoff (generated by Curry) that Curry doesn't get credit for. Usually, Curry passes to Draymond who lobs it for a dunker, or passes to a cutter, which means Curry doesn't get credit for his playmaking. Conversely, Harden has the lob threat which directly gives him an assist, or a wide array of shooters to pass to. I've talked about how the system, while potentially optimizing the Warriors chances of winning, didn't optimize Curry's individual production already. And if we want to talk about abusing rules and illegal plays, we should also talk about the Rockets spamming screens, many of which were illegal, and Harden grifting to the line at historic rates by blatantly cheating.

TL DR: no

This is why I didn't wanna weigh into the debate, I start yapping on too much about a debate that's already dead. That's it for me.

I don’t think you know what good shooters mean and what shooters actually are. It’s also the fact in 2014 you’re bringing up:
Troy Daniels (played 5 games) no playoffs
Aaron Brooks (played 43 games) no playoffs
Jordan Hamilton (played 21 games) no playoffs
Francisco (played 55 games) no playoffs

Iggy, Barnes, Klay, Livingston who is MJ from mid range, and Green who can command on offense on ball to lift that load for Curry is insanely useful. Howard already tore his MCL 2nd year in with Harden and played 40 games.

[OhayoKD]

I don't really care to weigh in on this "debate" too much, but I will note that Harden has been as well optimized as any offensive star ever, with amazing spacing/shooters/rollers over his entire career, even when his cast looks bad. Curry has never had his production optimized like this, the team is always built in a way to maximise their odds of winning, which involves defense and giving large roles to players who can't roll or space the floor meaningfully.

Hard disagree, Harden’s best teammates before 2018 was Parsons and Ariza that fit his mold. Howard optimized his passing threat driving but I mean anyone that’s competent enough as a center can, I mean look at Clint Capela. Then an injury riddled and aging CP3 came along who missed a lot of the regular season, and Harden was still able to make that team an ATG offense with Eric Gordon, Capela and Ariza. Then in 2020 he gets Russ, which seemed well in the regular season (still wasn’t optimizing Harden) but in the postseason he gets hurt and is just a decoy basically, except he can’t shoot, from anywhere lol. So harden gets box and one + doubled constantly, which happened anyway in the regular season.

Curry on the other hand, had Green run the offense many times through his on ball playmaking in & out the post, and a system that greatly optimized players like Curry (Reggie miller for example) with threats like Klay, Durant, Barnes, & other role players that can shoot (Poole, Cook, Livingston) sometimes Iggy, and amazing screen setters (got away with a lot of illegal stuff).
Always had the squad healthy too until 2019 in the finals. Meanwhile, Harden was playing with a Howard on a torn MCL after ‘14, injured Pat Bev, injured Russ, injured House Jr, injured Rivers, injured CP3.

Curry’s squad definitely maximized him more than Harden.

Almost all of this is wrong on a lot of levels. The following stats exclude Harden and Curry obviously
14 Rockets: 7 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Rockets: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Rockets: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Rockets: 5 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (6 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (10 taking 3+ attempts)

14 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Warriors: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Warriors: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)

Of course, this isn't the perfect measure of spacing. I know that. But it's pretty decent and is indicative of what we see on the floor, the Rockets always surround Harden with better spacers than the Warriors do Curry, and that's evidenced by one being offensively slanted and the other being defensively slanted.

The only spacing claim I see here is about 2020 which isn't included here. Should go without saying that a team surrounding the best spacer in history not having the best teammate spacing in history is not really a hindrance for Steph "maximising his impact".

Frankly the idea that Steph has not been optimized more than Harden seems hard to defend. Steph saw a much bigger boost from the system he's associated with individually than Harden did and Harden's best teammate alot of these years has been heavy-on-ball playmakers like himself.

I don't deny that the Warriors supporting casts were good. The thing is, the addition of Durant didn't help Curry's box score statistics at all, all it did was lower his scoring output and put him out of rhythm temporarily in the 17 RS.

I guess if you pretend efficiency doesn't matter, sure. Otherwise, 2017 is quite arguably Curry's best regular-season + playoffs statistically so...not really sure what you're arguing here.

Chris Paul quite obviously overlaps more with Harden than Durant does with Steph and Capela is not offering near the synergy(or total impact) to Harden Draymond does with Steph(incidentally his status as a remarkable impact-generator historically pretty much starts with Draymond becoming a starter in the playoffs).

You to be using a very simplistic model of "optimization" with little basis in reality.

TL DR: no

TLDR: Yeah. Curry having historically great fit is pretty clear. Harden? not really. Cherrypicking spacing for a player who adds the most impact in history as a spacer isn't an argument lol

[OhayoKD]

At that, I’d argue Harden was maximized more than LeBron or Curry - from a tactical (and refereeing) standpoint moreso than the supporting cast

Unserious take, yeah

[EmpireFalls]

Steph but it’s actually closer than most realize

Where Steph actually shines in terms of raising a team’s success is that he can still lead elite offensive outcomes with two non-shooter or meh shooters, which allows for better defensive ceiling outcomes than a Harden team.

That said 2018 showed just how good Harden offense could be when surrounded by commensurate talent to what Curry had.

[Lebronnygoat]

I mean I just can’t be bothered to read the rest considering he implied the Rockets had 7 good to great shooters in 14

[The Explorer]

Harden without D'antoni coaching or assistant coaching (Nets) was not the same level player. I always felt his numbers were inflated in the D'antoni system. Plus he didn't play consistent defense in his prime, and reserved his energy for offense more than any other star player perhaps. Curry tried on defense even if he was overmatched. So I put more stock in what Curry did on offense.

[penbeast0]

Almost all of this is wrong on a lot of levels. The following stats exclude Harden and Curry obviously
14 Rockets: 7 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Rockets: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Rockets: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Rockets: 5 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (6 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (7 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Rockets: 6 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (10 taking 3+ attempts)

14 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
15 Warriors: 1 player shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (2 taking 3+ attempts)
16 Warriors: 3 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
17 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)
18 Warriors: 4 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (5 taking 3+ attempts)
19 Warriors: 2 players shooting above 35% from 3 on 3+ attempts (3 taking 3+ attempts)

Of course, this isn't the perfect measure of spacing. I know that, and bringing that up isn't going to prove anything. But it's pretty decent and is indicative of what we see on the floor....

And that, to me, practically defines what people think about how to build an offense in the modern age. Two superstars and a bunch of guys shooting 3's and it's optimized. Please don't take this as a slap at Throwawaytheone. Just an old guy who likes different styles than the more homogeneous league today. Sigh.

[Throwawaytheone]

.

[Throwawaytheone]

.