Bulls trade Alex Caruso to OKC for Josh Giddey

[ThisGuyFawkes]

No way I take #13 over Giddey. I really like this trade but I'm also an eternal optimist so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Defensive specialist aren't as valuable in the modern game with modern rules. Giddey fits the modern game better than Caruso does, and I love Caruso but I think this was an upgrade. Giddey is like 8 years younger, plays more frequently, and will elevate our offense.

As an aside, I prefer the old-school, hard-nosed basketball of the past that included defense, but I guess you have to adapt at some point.

[burlydee]

Giddey > #13

and it's not particularly close in my eyes

Agreed. Giddy would have gone top 3, possibly top 2 in this draft. Getting Giddy over the number 13 pick is an easy decision in my books.

i mean, there is a not-dissimilar player to giddey in the draft who isn't at all a lock to go in the lottery

There's a player who averaged 17, 8, 6 as a 20 year old in the NBA in the draft? Does Silver know?

[nomorezorro]

did josh giddey's age 21 season not happen. seems to be a lot of people glossing over it.

[nomorezorro]

(it's not even a bad season! but "wow can you imagine getting him at the peak of his value last season; people sure would be looking at this trade differently" is a weird hypothetical because the 2023-24 season very much happened, and includes a lot of relevant information about the type of basketball player josh giddey is most likely to become at the nba level)

[Muzbar]

did josh giddey's age 21 season not happen. seems to be a lot of people glossing over it.

If you're referring to last season, it has been addressed many many times.

His role was reduced due to SGA taking on a larger on-ball role and higher usage which then resulted in less minutes than previous years and therefore lower stats across the board.

[nomorezorro]

ok, but you can't just say "we'll never have a player on this roster who's better on-ball than josh giddey," so it's not like those flaws in his game go away just because he's on a worse team for the moment. he can be a solid offensive engine, but what kind of a ceiling do you have if you give him that big a role?

last season highlighted that he is a very particular player that will likely require a ton of effort to slot into a championship-level team, and his value should be reflective of that.

[drosestruts]

ok, but you can't just say "we'll never have a player on this roster who's better on-ball than josh giddey," so it's not like those flaws in his game go away just because he's on a worse team for the moment. he can be a solid offensive engine, but what kind of a ceiling do you have if you give him that big a role?

last season highlighted that he is a very particular player that will likely require a ton of effort to slot into a championship-level team, and his value should be reflective of that.

Am I missing your point or is your point - "players need to be in environments that let them play to their strengths in order to maximize their value"

Because if so, yes.

Also can be said about 95% of the league.

[kodo]

I think the #13 pick information clearly shows that the entire "could have gotten Giddey plus multiple picks" for Caruso value was out of line with what NBA teams thought.

The multiple picks stuff was from last season (when he had 2 years left), and some of it even from the deadline. But now he's an expiring contract that can sign with any team in the league next summer, and you don't need cap space since he's an under MLE type player.

I don't think the OKC deal was far off from his real value, if not the best deal available.

[Dan Z]

I think the #13 pick information clearly shows that the entire "could have gotten Giddey plus multiple picks" for Caruso value was out of line with what NBA teams thought.

The multiple picks stuff was from last season (when he had 2 years left), and some of it even from the deadline. But now he's an expiring contract that can sign with any team in the league next summer, and you don't need cap space since he's an under MLE type player.

I don't think the OKC deal was far off from his real value, if not the best deal available.

The Mid-level exception is 12.9 million (I think) and Caruso will make $9,890,000 this upcoming season. You don't think his next contract will be more than 12.9 per year?

However, I'm not saying that really changes his value. I basically agree with you.

[Dez]

Honestly, I like the idea of the #13 better, due to the cheap contract and possibility of a high upside player

I am neutral on Giddy-want to watch him closer but he seems really slow to me

So you would rather an unknown player in a weak draft than a 21 year old who is already a good player in the NBA and still has a high upside? That's just bizarre.

[kulaz3000]

did josh giddey's age 21 season not happen. seems to be a lot of people glossing over it.

Yeah, but you need to view his entire body of work. I mean Coby had somewhat down season the year before, so did Ayo, but they both improved their games. Why can't Giddey? Hell, Josh has completed more in his 3 season than either Coby and Ayo, and he is younger than both, so I'll take my chances with Giddey, that he will continue to progress as a player. It may not happen, but I'm optimistic of a improved season from him.

[kulaz3000]

ok, but you can't just say "we'll never have a player on this roster who's better on-ball than josh giddey," so it's not like those flaws in his game go away just because he's on a worse team for the moment. he can be a solid offensive engine, but what kind of a ceiling do you have if you give him that big a role?

last season highlighted that he is a very particular player that will likely require a ton of effort to slot into a championship-level team, and his value should be reflective of that.

I think you're missing steps in your evaluation of him, and the team as a whole. We are currently far removed from being a championship team, let alone a playoff team. In fact, I'd say this move is the start of a rebuild. We may not completely tank, but it looks like this is the first step into a rebuild, which means obtaining as much young talent to evaluate and build with, whether it be trading them off for assets in the future.

We can worry about how Giddey fits on a championship team, once we find ourselves a legitimate star player to actually build around, where we can properly evaluate how the team should be structed around said player. Without that star player, the front office just needs to focus on asset building, and not just being happy being a middling team.

[kodo]

The Mid-level exception is 12.9 million (I think) and Caruso will make $9,890,000 this upcoming season. You don't think his next contract will be more than 12.9 per year?

However, I'm not saying that really changes his value. I basically agree with you.

I'm assuming no because he'll be in his 30s and he's already on the IR quite often. But I've learned never to be surprised by salaries going up in this league, to your point.

[DuckIII]

I am neutral on Giddy-want to watch him closer but he seems really slow to me

Yeah you need to watch more of him. His biggest strength besides being huge is that he’s one of the best full court pace setters in the league. I’m assuming that acquiring him signals the beginning of a completely new and open court style.

[kulaz3000]

The Mid-level exception is 12.9 million (I think) and Caruso will make $9,890,000 this upcoming season. You don't think his next contract will be more than 12.9 per year?

However, I'm not saying that really changes his value. I basically agree with you.

I'm assuming no because he'll be in his 30s and he's already on the IR quite often. But I've learned never to be surprised by salaries going up in this league, to your point.

You think he isn't going to get more than the 12.9 million per year? I'd say there is no chance that he gets any less than 18 million per season, MINIMUM.

[dice]

The fake ID is what was used to access the club in the first place. That was a key component of him being cleared.

He was cleared because the girl's family refused to talk to authorities. A fake ID isn't an excuse for pedophilia.

Regardless of the age difference, an NBA player shouldn't mess with a high school girl.

Whether it's wrong or right, people will make fun of him about this for the rest of his life.

Umm, pedophilia isn't any part of this whatsoever. That's an attraction to pre-pubescent children, which is definitely not the case here.

even if was an attraction to pubescent girls under the age of consent it would be unfair to label him that in this instance

[pipfan]

I am neutral on Giddy-want to watch him closer but he seems really slow to me

Yeah you need to watch more of him. His biggest strength besides being huge is that he’s one of the best full court pace setters in the league. I’m assuming that acquiring him signals the beginning of a completely new and open court style.

I'm keeping an open mind-just worry about his lack of burst. I don't watch OKC but I did watch their playoffs. Sure, that wasn't his best work, but he was bad in those games, and left wide-open. Also, I love defense-minded players-more fun for me to watch.

He's young and should improve still but also will be up for an extension. I like this draft in the middle, and I think there will be one or two All Stars drafted between 10-25. No idea who, but there are interesting prospects to be had. That's why I don't like the idea of us trading up from 11.

[drosestruts]

I am neutral on Giddy-want to watch him closer but he seems really slow to me

Yeah you need to watch more of him. His biggest strength besides being huge is that he’s one of the best full court pace setters in the league. I’m assuming that acquiring him signals the beginning of a completely new and open court style.

I'm keeping an open mind-just worry about his lack of burst. I don't watch OKC but I did watch their playoffs. Sure, that wasn't his best work, but he was bad in those games, and left wide-open. Also, I love defense-minded players-more fun for me to watch.

He's young and should improve still but also will be up for an extension. I like this draft in the middle, and I think there will be one or two All Stars drafted between 10-25. No idea who, but there are interesting prospects to be had. That's why I don't like the idea of us trading up from 11.

I think it's fair to say he was bad in the Dallas series, blanketing his entire playoffs as a negative seems incorrect to me. He was good in the New Orleans series

12.5 points, 5 rebounds, and 3 assists in 26 minutes per game. Shot 50% on 18 3PA across 4 games.

He played particularly well in game 3 with a 19 points 8 rebound 6 assists performance

I know individual +/- stats don't tell the whole story but it's not like Giddey's presence on the court was awful throughout all 6 games with dallas:

-7
-20
-1
+6
-3
+2

He won his minutes in 2 games, was slightly negative in 2 but didn't play more than 15 minutes in either so I think would be unfair to pin the losses on him, and then yes was clearly bad in 2

[jnrjr79]

The Mid-level exception is 12.9 million (I think) and Caruso will make $9,890,000 this upcoming season. You don't think his next contract will be more than 12.9 per year?

However, I'm not saying that really changes his value. I basically agree with you.

I'm assuming no because he'll be in his 30s and he's already on the IR quite often. But I've learned never to be surprised by salaries going up in this league, to your point.

You think he isn't going to get more than the 12.9 million per year? I'd say there is no chance that he gets any less than 18 million per season, MINIMUM.

Agreed. IMO, if you're OKC, you're not trading for Caruso unless you plan on giving him the 4-year, $79M extension he's eligible for in 6 months.

[dougthonus]

ok, but you can't just say "we'll never have a player on this roster who's better on-ball than josh giddey," so it's not like those flaws in his game go away just because he's on a worse team for the moment. he can be a solid offensive engine, but what kind of a ceiling do you have if you give him that big a role?

last season highlighted that he is a very particular player that will likely require a ton of effort to slot into a championship-level team, and his value should be reflective of that.

I think this is all true, but let me reframe it this way:

If Giddey, at the age of 22, makes big strides in his shooting, then a lot of the conversation changes. Giddey has already improved from a 26.3% three point shooter to a 33.7% three point shooter. People are acting like his shooting is a finished product. It is definitely a huge area of concern, but I think the finality on it never improving feels overstated and unfair to me give the improvement to date, his age, and how common it is for players to improve here.

If Giddey does not improve his three point shooting or his defense or his efficiency and he remains just exactly who he is now, then he's probably a 25 minute per game role player. You know what we gave up to get him? A 30 year old, 25 minute per game role player that was on an expiring deal.

The alternative to Giddey as best as we can say now is pick #13 in the draft this year. What are your expectations for pick #13 in the draft this year? Do you think it is a difference maker? Do you think it's a guy who is going to be a high level starter on a championship caliber team? The expected outcome of this player is probably 25 minute per game role player after 3 years of development with some upside to be better and some downside to be worse.

People shouldn't have star expectations for Giddey, there's some path forward there, but it is an incredibly shaky one, but we weren't going to get a star for Caruso. People have equated their love for Caruso and his obvious niche value around the league as being worth this massive asset haul that was never reasonable or accurate. I don't know if Giddey was a better choice than #13 (it perpetuates our desire to retool vs rebuild and not get bad) but it's really hard to make the case that #13 in this draft class which appears fricken awful was going to have more upside or a higher floor. What it would have is a better contract situation and longer time line.

I totally get the preference for the unknown and long contract situation, but the reality is our real issue was waiting so long and only being able to cash in one asset. Had we done the things I suggested going back to 2.5 years ago, we'd have cashed out Vuc, DeMar, and Zach all at their peak value. Now we're trying to restart while only having cashed on one asset, and looking at potentially having to give up assets to move Zach/Vuc which we can ill afford to do. The holistic problem is the past actions. This trade was a reasonable gamble / return. We just waited too long.