2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Voting Thread (voting completed)

[therealbig3]

Actually, most people who voted for Luka #1 did *not* have Jokic in their top 3. And that included stuff like Embiid, Brunson, and *Haliburton* above Jokic.

A grand total of 3 people had Jokic outside of the top 3. “Most” is literally 3/5 people.

Yes, the number of people voting in this at all is small and the number who were against the guy who won is obviously going to be even smaller. Luckily, I was responding to a statement you made specifically about what that small group of people “typically” did. Responding to me by saying that that’s a small number of people is not a valid retort at all.

Most people did overwhelmingly have Jokic top 3. Of the people that didn’t have him #1…most still had him #2 or #3. So my statement stands

You replied regarding specifically those voters that had Luka #1 and tried to make it seem like there was an agenda from that group of 5 posters, which wasn’t really relevant to my post anyway.

[lessthanjake]

A grand total of 3 people had Jokic outside of the top 3. “Most” is literally 3/5 people.

Yes, the number of people voting in this at all is small and the number who were against the guy who won is obviously going to be even smaller. Luckily, I was responding to a statement you made specifically about what that small group of people “typically” did. Responding to me by saying that that’s a small number of people is not a valid retort at all.

Most people did overwhelmingly have Jokic top 3. Of the people that didn’t have him #1…most still had him #2 or #3. So my statement stands

You replied regarding specifically those voters that had Luka #1 and tried to make it seem like there was an agenda from that group of 5 posters, which wasn’t really relevant to my post anyway.

Obviously the people strategic voting to make their guy win (or to make a specific guy lose) are going to be the people who voted for the guy who got #2 in voting. Like yeah, obviously Eminence wasn’t going to strategic vote Jokic low to try to increase Tatum’s chances of winning, since Tatum was clearly not going to win regardless (in fact, in that context, voting Jokic really low would tend to hurt Tatum’s standing, since it’d require elevating people above Jokic that Tatum might actually beat).

Also, note that the statement I responded to wasn’t about all voters that didn’t vote Jokic #1, but rather you saying how “those that were highly critical of him” voted. And yeah, I think you’ll find that the ones that were “highly critical” were Luka voters.

[MyUniBroDavis]

As cordial as possible:

1. I get to have my own criteria as you all do. lebron get voted 2nd in 2011, and 5 people voted harden above him in 2018, and KD somehow didn’t make 9 ballots.
(And to be clear, I’d have lebron 5th or out in 2011). There was a narrative that the 2023 nuggets were one of the greatest teams of all time because they dominated 3 teams that got better and all lost in 5 games or less and then lost to the other team that was injured in 2023.

People have takes others consider ridiculous all the time.

To me, Jokic was the third best player this year, and as a player of the season was somewhere in the 6-8th range because I thought he was incredibly dissapointing in the second round where he basically had like 2 effective games without blots start to finish. Me saying “they were up 20 from another guy so idc that much about what he did up 20” is a pretty common perspective lol

I said my reasons straight up, luka and shai were easy for me, I thought Brunson had a magic run, brown winning ECF and Finals MVP means he had to be on it no matter what imo even if I disagree with an award or two there since I’m playoff focused, and then I had Tatum since I thought he was best in his team, thought about how stupid Tatum in any sort of top 5 list sounded and then switched to hali since he made the ECF and the IST finals while putting up historic offensive numbers pre injury and still being solid playing through it. If I was glazing I’d say bron gets 5th because at least he won something lmao but bro is not in my top 8

There are a bunch of minority opinions that are pretty common on this board and that doesn’t make them necessarily incorrect, but don’t try to speak some nonsense about mine just because you disagree with how I rank it lol

Better not be me I’m hearing about skewing/cherry picking data or whatever it is just because rather than loooking at total averages in a 7 game series where the goal is to win 4 I looked at individual games or point out how the team did when a player is on the court. All of this because a player almost didn’t win in a vote with like 15 people lmao

[therealbig3]

Yes, the number of people voting in this at all is small and the number who were against the guy who won is obviously going to be even smaller. Luckily, I was responding to a statement you made specifically about what that small group of people “typically” did. Responding to me by saying that that’s a small number of people is not a valid retort at all.

Most people did overwhelmingly have Jokic top 3. Of the people that didn’t have him #1…most still had him #2 or #3. So my statement stands

You replied regarding specifically those voters that had Luka #1 and tried to make it seem like there was an agenda from that group of 5 posters, which wasn’t really relevant to my post anyway.

Obviously the people strategic voting to make their guy win (or to make a specific guy lose) are going to be the people who voted for the guy who got #2 in voting. Like yeah, obviously Eminence wasn’t going to strategic vote Jokic low to try to increase Tatum’s chances of winning, since Tatum was clearly not going to win regardless (in fact, in that context, voting Jokic really low would tend to hurt Tatum’s standing, since it’d require elevating people above Jokic that Tatum might actually beat).

Also, note that the statement I responded to wasn’t about all voters that didn’t vote Jokic #1, but rather you saying how “those that were highly critical of him” voted. And yeah, I think you’ll find that the ones that were “highly critical” were Luka voters.

To me, highly critical would be those that didn’t vote him #1, because obviously they’re going against the majority here and did have some legit issues with Jokic’s play. Despite those issues, he still got a top 3 vote from most of them.

You’re adding some anti-Jokic sentiment from Luka voters to my original point, which doesn’t really seem justified tbh. Unibro isn’t really a guy that would campaign against certain people, nor is he someone that clearly has any sort of pro-Luka or anti-Jokic agenda. Honestly, I’m shocked he didn’t even mention AD or LeBron as even an HM anywhere, those are the guys he’d have a bias for. OhayoKD was the other one that dropped Jokic out of the top 3, again he gave his opinions on it and has been openly critical of Jokic’s flaws throughout the playoffs, despite voting him #1 last year. And falcolombardi being the other one to drop him from top 3, really mainly because he felt Jokic was clearly worse than last year and allowed other guys to pass him, which is honestly also fair.

I feel like we’re trying too hard to victimize Jokic here because of some agenda, when in reality people are just tougher on him and his limitations than you are. Yeah he’s the MVP, yeah he puts up incredible numbers, but that doesn’t mean he’s everyone’s #1 player, or even everyone’s top 3 player this year. And that’s ok.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I thought this was about discussion and a gathering of minds, not the outcome

*sigh*

Quotatious, where did we go wrong?

[iggymcfrack]

As cordial as possible:

1. I get to have my own criteria as you all do. lebron get voted 2nd in 2011, and 5 people voted harden above him in 2018, and KD somehow didn’t make 9 ballots.
(And to be clear, I’d have lebron 5th or out in 2011). There was a narrative that the 2023 nuggets were one of the greatest teams of all time because they dominated 3 teams that got better and all lost in 5 games or less and then lost to the other team that was injured in 2023.

People have takes others consider ridiculous all the time.

To me, Jokic was the third best player this year, and as a player of the season was somewhere in the 6-8th range because I thought he was incredibly dissapointing in the second round where he basically had like 2 effective games without blots start to finish. Me saying “they were up 20 from another guy so idc that much about what he did up 20” is a pretty common perspective lol

I said my reasons straight up, luka and shai were easy for me, I thought Brunson had a magic run, brown winning ECF and Finals MVP means he had to be on it no matter what imo even if I disagree with an award or two there since I’m playoff focused, and then I had Tatum since I thought he was best in his team, thought about how stupid Tatum in any sort of top 5 list sounded and then switched to hali since he made the ECF and the IST finals while putting up historic offensive numbers pre injury and still being solid playing through it. If I was glazing I’d say bron gets 5th because at least he won something lmao but bro is not in my top 8

There are a bunch of minority opinions that are pretty common on this board and that doesn’t make them necessarily incorrect, but don’t try to speak some nonsense about mine just because you disagree with how I rank it lol

Better not be me I’m hearing about skewing/cherry picking data or whatever it is just because rather than loooking at total averages in a 7 game series where the goal is to win 4 I looked at individual games or point out how the team did when a player is on the court. All of this because a player almost didn’t win in a vote with like 15 people lmao

Player A: 18.6 PER, .121 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, -7.7 on/off (regular season)
19.1 PER, .133 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, -7.5 on/off (postseason)

Note: Player A missed 12 games during the regular season and his team went 12-0 with a +19 point differential per game.

Player B: 31.0 PER, .299 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +20.0 on/off (regular season)
30.0 PER, .259 WS/48, 12.8 BPM, +20.8 on/off (postseason)

I don't care how much you talk around "well, you know, if Jokic had played really well in the right 4 games when he got enough support from his teammates he really should have beaten the Wolves", that's an absolutely ludicrous decision to take Player 1 over Player 2. Jokic's "bad Game 7" against Minnesota was better by Game Score than all 124 playoff games Jaylen Brown's played across his entire career. Admit it, you did not actually think Jaylen Brown had a better season than Jokic in any possible way. You just wanted to find a way to downgrade Jokic for some reason and you thought Brown's awards made him an acceptable reach. This is like ranking Iguodala above LeBron for POY voting in 2015, except worse because at least Iguodala was a deserved FMVP who made a serious impact and LeBron actually did have a bad series when he got eliminated.

[AEnigma]

No, the difference is that 2015 Lebron was punished for failing to win in the Finals with a much worse team than the Nuggets against a much better team than the Wolves.

[therealbig3]

lol I mean yes the Jaylen Brown pick is obviously one that pretty much everyone else disagrees with, but he did basically say every time “I don’t actually think Jaylen Brown belongs here, but I HAVE to include him because of the awards”.

The man is just applying his criteria consistently, even if it leads to a strange choice. If winning CF and Finals MVP after being an All-Star automatically gets you a top 5 spot on unibro’s list every time, then he’s just following that.

There’s also the case of how you played relative to your own expectations. I don’t agree with that, because your ultimate goodness should still prevail, and not how much you underachieved relative to what people expected, but for some people that matters more.

Again, I don’t agree with the Jaylen Brown pick. But my criteria is probably pretty different.

[therealbig3]

I’ll also point out that he could EASILY have gone with other players other than Brown over Jokic if he was looking to elevate someone, purely to drop Jokic. AD and LeBron for example have much better statistical arguments than Brown does, and Embiid and Giannis were way better in the RS than Brown.

[OhayoKD]

Pretending like there was no strategic voting, attempts to manipulate through the "discussion" serves none of us. We need to always call that nonsense out. It's always been a problem on this board unfortunately, but this year was particularly egregious. Some posters are too attached to specific players and a need to manipulate results. Beyond pointless and yet....

Its why I participate in the discussion but never the voting.

I saw all of one “egregious” voting post… and I am positive that vote was not counted.

Talk about player attachment when, as it has been for months, almost all the whining is from people evidently too attached to a player to tolerate others criticising him.

That's not whining. That's pushing back against an agenda. I'm no Jokic fan, but the cherry picking of data and narrative spinning against him were absurd.

I don't think it's the voting, it was the discourse that got pretty ugly. You got a bunch of posters here whose sole goal in life it seems is to produce a gotcha post against someone they disagree with. So the discourse further dug people into their positions and became even more of potshot throwing contest.

Friendly reminder these were the two parties who slogged out the most character attacks during the aforementioned Jokic discourse.

Reality is it's the pro-Jokic side that was ad-homming, strawmanning, and trying to throw out votes ontop of a voter roll that pretty much excluded half of the people who had been criticizing Jokic over the last few months.

Perhaps learning how to make points coherently instead of devolving everything into a personal spat would serve your positions better.

Or just keep gatekeeping i guess.

[Texas Chuck]

I never attacked anyone personally. You feel like you handled yourself ethically, you don't need to worry about my statements which named no people. One of us addresses the other one personally over and over and the other one is me.

Every accusation is a confession.

[OhayoKD]

I never attacked anyone personally. You feel like you handled yourself ethically, you don't need to worry about my statements which named no people. One of us addresses the other one personally over and over and the other one is me.

Every accusation is a confession.

And that "one of us" is you:

Ooh boy, basketball is solved eh? I mean if RealGM posters can solve basketball it blows me away that the actual teams don't have multiple employees who have solved it and can explain it to their players and we'd be getting perfect basketball.

...

But telling us we only haven't solved it like you is because we are dumb is a fun take lol.

Huh? I think you can take whatever approach you want to judge how Tatum played.

I think pretending someone else played in his stead, inventing a fictional result, and using that to access valuation of Tatum is of zero use.

...

Sorry, but not going to apologize for that no matter how little use you find of my approach. Or how simple minded you find me. I never ask you to take mine.

Your shtick is inventing personal attacks that were never levied so you can derail substantive discussion, often by using those made-up personal attacks as justification to cast aspersions about whoever you're disagreeing with.

It's not an accusation, it's a fact.

[MyUniBroDavis]

As cordial as possible:

1. I get to have my own criteria as you all do. lebron get voted 2nd in 2011, and 5 people voted harden above him in 2018, and KD somehow didn’t make 9 ballots.
(And to be clear, I’d have lebron 5th or out in 2011). There was a narrative that the 2023 nuggets were one of the greatest teams of all time because they dominated 3 teams that got better and all lost in 5 games or less and then lost to the other team that was injured in 2023.

People have takes others consider ridiculous all the time.

To me, Jokic was the third best player this year, and as a player of the season was somewhere in the 6-8th range because I thought he was incredibly dissapointing in the second round where he basically had like 2 effective games without blots start to finish. Me saying “they were up 20 from another guy so idc that much about what he did up 20” is a pretty common perspective lol

I said my reasons straight up, luka and shai were easy for me, I thought Brunson had a magic run, brown winning ECF and Finals MVP means he had to be on it no matter what imo even if I disagree with an award or two there since I’m playoff focused, and then I had Tatum since I thought he was best in his team, thought about how stupid Tatum in any sort of top 5 list sounded and then switched to hali since he made the ECF and the IST finals while putting up historic offensive numbers pre injury and still being solid playing through it. If I was glazing I’d say bron gets 5th because at least he won something lmao but bro is not in my top 8

There are a bunch of minority opinions that are pretty common on this board and that doesn’t make them necessarily incorrect, but don’t try to speak some nonsense about mine just because you disagree with how I rank it lol

Better not be me I’m hearing about skewing/cherry picking data or whatever it is just because rather than loooking at total averages in a 7 game series where the goal is to win 4 I looked at individual games or point out how the team did when a player is on the court. All of this because a player almost didn’t win in a vote with like 15 people lmao

Player A: 18.6 PER, .121 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, -7.7 on/off (regular season)
19.1 PER, .133 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, -7.5 on/off (postseason)

Note: Player A missed 12 games during the regular season and his team went 12-0 with a +19 point differential per game.

Player B: 31.0 PER, .299 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +20.0 on/off (regular season)
30.0 PER, .259 WS/48, 12.8 BPM, +20.8 on/off (postseason)

I don't care how much you talk around "well, you know, if Jokic had played really well in the right 4 games when he got enough support from his teammates he really should have beaten the Wolves", that's an absolutely ludicrous decision to take Player 1 over Player 2. Jokic's "bad Game 7" against Minnesota was better by Game Score than all 124 playoff games Jaylen Brown's played across his entire career. Admit it, you did not actually think Jaylen Brown had a better season than Jokic in any possible way. You just wanted to find a way to downgrade Jokic for some reason and you thought Brown's awards made him an acceptable reach. This is like ranking Iguodala above LeBron for POY voting in 2015, except worse because at least Iguodala was a deserved FMVP who made a serious impact and LeBron actually did have a bad series when he got eliminated.

If only I could respond to this in kind without being permabanned

While there’s a lot here to disagree with, I’ll simply state that if you need to take a deep breath if you get this riled up if someone’s criteria is different from yours.

[iggymcfrack]

As cordial as possible:

1. I get to have my own criteria as you all do. lebron get voted 2nd in 2011, and 5 people voted harden above him in 2018, and KD somehow didn’t make 9 ballots.
(And to be clear, I’d have lebron 5th or out in 2011). There was a narrative that the 2023 nuggets were one of the greatest teams of all time because they dominated 3 teams that got better and all lost in 5 games or less and then lost to the other team that was injured in 2023.

People have takes others consider ridiculous all the time.

To me, Jokic was the third best player this year, and as a player of the season was somewhere in the 6-8th range because I thought he was incredibly dissapointing in the second round where he basically had like 2 effective games without blots start to finish. Me saying “they were up 20 from another guy so idc that much about what he did up 20” is a pretty common perspective lol

I said my reasons straight up, luka and shai were easy for me, I thought Brunson had a magic run, brown winning ECF and Finals MVP means he had to be on it no matter what imo even if I disagree with an award or two there since I’m playoff focused, and then I had Tatum since I thought he was best in his team, thought about how stupid Tatum in any sort of top 5 list sounded and then switched to hali since he made the ECF and the IST finals while putting up historic offensive numbers pre injury and still being solid playing through it. If I was glazing I’d say bron gets 5th because at least he won something lmao but bro is not in my top 8

There are a bunch of minority opinions that are pretty common on this board and that doesn’t make them necessarily incorrect, but don’t try to speak some nonsense about mine just because you disagree with how I rank it lol

Better not be me I’m hearing about skewing/cherry picking data or whatever it is just because rather than loooking at total averages in a 7 game series where the goal is to win 4 I looked at individual games or point out how the team did when a player is on the court. All of this because a player almost didn’t win in a vote with like 15 people lmao

Player A: 18.6 PER, .121 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, -7.7 on/off (regular season)
19.1 PER, .133 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, -7.5 on/off (postseason)

Note: Player A missed 12 games during the regular season and his team went 12-0 with a +19 point differential per game.

Player B: 31.0 PER, .299 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +20.0 on/off (regular season)
30.0 PER, .259 WS/48, 12.8 BPM, +20.8 on/off (postseason)

I don't care how much you talk around "well, you know, if Jokic had played really well in the right 4 games when he got enough support from his teammates he really should have beaten the Wolves", that's an absolutely ludicrous decision to take Player 1 over Player 2. Jokic's "bad Game 7" against Minnesota was better by Game Score than all 124 playoff games Jaylen Brown's played across his entire career. Admit it, you did not actually think Jaylen Brown had a better season than Jokic in any possible way. You just wanted to find a way to downgrade Jokic for some reason and you thought Brown's awards made him an acceptable reach. This is like ranking Iguodala above LeBron for POY voting in 2015, except worse because at least Iguodala was a deserved FMVP who made a serious impact and LeBron actually did have a bad series when he got eliminated.

If only I could respond to this in kind without being permabanned

While there’s a lot here to disagree with, I’ll simply state that if you need to take a deep breath if you get this riled up if someone’s criteria is different from yours.

I’m not riled up. I just think it’s silly that you rated the worst starter on the Celtics over the best player in the league. If you have any numbers that suggest that Brown’s actually better, feel free to post them. I promise you won’t get perma-banned.

[OhayoKD]

Player A: 18.6 PER, .121 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, -7.7 on/off (regular season)
19.1 PER, .133 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, -7.5 on/off (postseason)

Note: Player A missed 12 games during the regular season and his team went 12-0 with a +19 point differential per game.

Player B: 31.0 PER, .299 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +20.0 on/off (regular season)
30.0 PER, .259 WS/48, 12.8 BPM, +20.8 on/off (postseason)

I don't care how much you talk around "well, you know, if Jokic had played really well in the right 4 games when he got enough support from his teammates he really should have beaten the Wolves", that's an absolutely ludicrous decision to take Player 1 over Player 2. Jokic's "bad Game 7" against Minnesota was better by Game Score than all 124 playoff games Jaylen Brown's played across his entire career. Admit it, you did not actually think Jaylen Brown had a better season than Jokic in any possible way. You just wanted to find a way to downgrade Jokic for some reason and you thought Brown's awards made him an acceptable reach. This is like ranking Iguodala above LeBron for POY voting in 2015, except worse because at least Iguodala was a deserved FMVP who made a serious impact and LeBron actually did have a bad series when he got eliminated.

If only I could respond to this in kind without being permabanned

While there’s a lot here to disagree with, I’ll simply state that if you need to take a deep breath if you get this riled up if someone’s criteria is different from yours.

I’m not riled up. I just think it’s silly that you rated the worst starter on the Celtics over the best player in the league. If you have any numbers that suggest that Brown’s actually better, feel free to post them. I promise you won’t get perma-banned.

I think it's silly that over the last year you still haven't figured out that metrics that do not measure how much or how well a player handles the ball are not useful when assessing a player whose biggest offensive weakness is his ball-handling.

[iggymcfrack]

If only I could respond to this in kind without being permabanned

While there’s a lot here to disagree with, I’ll simply state that if you need to take a deep breath if you get this riled up if someone’s criteria is different from yours.

I’m not riled up. I just think it’s silly that you rated the worst starter on the Celtics over the best player in the league. If you have any numbers that suggest that Brown’s actually better, feel free to post them. I promise you won’t get perma-banned.

I think it's silly that over the last year you still haven't figured out that metrics that do not measure how much or how well a player handles the ball are not useful when assessing a player whose biggest offensive weakness is his ball-handling.

You think ball-handling is some sort of major weakness for Jokic? I have to say, this is the first time I’ve ever even seen this suggested. If it’s such a problem, why is he able to bring the ball up at times, be a dominant post scorer, and dish a near league leading number of assists while maintaining such a low turnover rate?

[OhayoKD]

Player A: 18.6 PER, .121 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, -7.7 on/off (regular season)
19.1 PER, .133 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, -7.5 on/off (postseason)

Note: Player A missed 12 games during the regular season and his team went 12-0 with a +19 point differential per game.

Player B: 31.0 PER, .299 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +20.0 on/off (regular season)
30.0 PER, .259 WS/48, 12.8 BPM, +20.8 on/off (postseason)

I don't care how much you talk around "well, you know, if Jokic had played really well in the right 4 games when he got enough support from his teammates he really should have beaten the Wolves", that's an absolutely ludicrous decision to take Player 1 over Player 2. Jokic's "bad Game 7" against Minnesota was better by Game Score than all 124 playoff games Jaylen Brown's played across his entire career. Admit it, you did not actually think Jaylen Brown had a better season than Jokic in any possible way. You just wanted to find a way to downgrade Jokic for some reason and you thought Brown's awards made him an acceptable reach. This is like ranking Iguodala above LeBron for POY voting in 2015, except worse because at least Iguodala was a deserved FMVP who made a serious impact and LeBron actually did have a bad series when he got eliminated.

If only I could respond to this in kind without being permabanned

While there’s a lot here to disagree with, I’ll simply state that if you need to take a deep breath if you get this riled up if someone’s criteria is different from yours.

I’m not riled up. I just think it’s silly that you rated the worst starter on the Celtics over the best player in the league. If you have any numbers that suggest that Brown’s actually better, feel free to post them. I promise you won’t get perma-banned.

I think it's silly that over the last year you still haven't figured out that metrics that do not measure how much or how well a player handles the ball are not useful when assessing a player whose biggest offensive weakness is his ball-handling.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Player A: 18.6 PER, .121 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, -7.7 on/off (regular season)
19.1 PER, .133 WS/48, 1.8 BPM, -7.5 on/off (postseason)

Note: Player A missed 12 games during the regular season and his team went 12-0 with a +19 point differential per game.

Player B: 31.0 PER, .299 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +20.0 on/off (regular season)
30.0 PER, .259 WS/48, 12.8 BPM, +20.8 on/off (postseason)

I don't care how much you talk around "well, you know, if Jokic had played really well in the right 4 games when he got enough support from his teammates he really should have beaten the Wolves", that's an absolutely ludicrous decision to take Player 1 over Player 2. Jokic's "bad Game 7" against Minnesota was better by Game Score than all 124 playoff games Jaylen Brown's played across his entire career. Admit it, you did not actually think Jaylen Brown had a better season than Jokic in any possible way. You just wanted to find a way to downgrade Jokic for some reason and you thought Brown's awards made him an acceptable reach. This is like ranking Iguodala above LeBron for POY voting in 2015, except worse because at least Iguodala was a deserved FMVP who made a serious impact and LeBron actually did have a bad series when he got eliminated.

If only I could respond to this in kind without being permabanned

While there’s a lot here to disagree with, I’ll simply state that if you need to take a deep breath if you get this riled up if someone’s criteria is different from yours.

I’m not riled up. I just think it’s silly that you rated the worst starter on the Celtics over the best player in the league. If you have any numbers that suggest that Brown’s actually better, feel free to post them. I promise you won’t get perma-banned.

I mean I don’t even think Jokic is the best player in the league, I think he situationally has the most value towards a team built very well around him that’s not particularly well built at all to last without him that also does a good job hiding some of his deficits.

I certainly take a healthy Luka, I think since Shai is an elite defender is a very fair argument, and raw talent alone Giannis is likely the BITW if he gets back to being a more active help defender role and if they never hired doc as he and dames connection has been improving and thre results were fantastic offensively in that early pre doc stretch after some early hiccups

I think some people are clearly far too overreliant on data without context and look at good all in one or impact numbers and get wowed by that rather than looking at the limitations caused by a players deficit on team construction and how a roster is actually built around a player rather than to support him

[MyUniBroDavis]

^ clarification on Giannis

I don’t think he’s a POY the next few years just because they’ll never have good coaching, but we somewhat saw some flashes this year despite that pre doc where his offensive numbers and impact were fantastic with a high ceiling with a pretty bad season of dame

Defensively we’ve seen how good he can be with a high load and I think he obviously didn’t get worse on defense despite probably peaking higher than Gobert on that end at least in raw impact, I think they ran different coverages more often than defaulting to drop in the RS post bubble based on some second spectrum data I saw awhile back which lowered immediate regular season results but likely would improve they’re postseason versatility, but Gianni’s himself is more of a help defender and I do think if you don’t have a primary rim protector he simply won’t be as effective despite him doing good without Brook in some of those DPOY years, and nowadays he’s literally complained about the coaching defensively and their response was to hire doc rivers lol


I don’t think anyone stands heads and shoulders above the rest of the league today, I think Jokic having better impact data is due to team context similar to how despite being high on DPOY Gianni’s I wouldn’t put him in the discussions with like many years of peak Duncan or KG on that end despite the raw data those years likely clearing, or would I say peak Gianni’s was 2020 in the regular seaoson despite his data that year being insane despite clearly not being as good at basketball, or even a guy like curry far declining in 2021 than earlier years despite it likely being the warriors system going from way ahead of it’s time to a bit too much fat and being cute once teams caught up and optimized their strategies

To me, Jokic is the best RS player within his team context for sure, I think playoffs he has some series where he’ll look like a historic top 5 peak guy and other matchups where he’ll get targetted more defensively and his overall impact suffers far more than others overall if he’s stifled offensively which has happened a few times in terms of overall advantage creatint and engineering a good offense despite his numbers and volume still remaining solid . I mean even luka I’m sure they just run less sets with him on the court like the rockets did with harden which muted their impact, and coaches call plays for the most part so I’m not blaming him for that

[Dutchball97]

I don't want to say people were voting Jokic low for strategic purposes but I do think the way certain narratives developed and were used by a majority of people who did not have Jokic at #1 can give that impression.

The best playmaking big of all time is now apparently a weak ball handler despite no significant increase in TOV or decrease in assists compared to last year's post-season.

Jokic did face a lot of defensive pressure by some of the top defenders in the league like AD and Gobert but he was still leading the play-offs in just about every offensive metric. The offense not being as strong as expected seems like it really should take into account the struggles of Murray and KCP. Gordon being so hit and miss didn't help either in certain games.

We also know who Jokic is defensively and I really don't see how this season showed it's a bigger weakness than previously thought.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to have Luka and/or SGA ahead, while I can at least understand the argument for Tatum with him being (arguably) the best player on such a dominant championship squad and his consistently strong +-. It's just hard to deny the arguments used against Jokic here, as well as previous statements by certain posters about how Jokic is overrated, paint a bit of an overly negative picture.