2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,853
And1: 16,408
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4021 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:55 pm

jalengreen wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:I think 15 Rockets and Grizzlies are better opponents than any of the Celtics conference ones when you consider the injuries. The Mavs are a better team than Cavs without Kyrie and Love, however the Cavs were a bad matchup for the Warriors, while the Celtics were a bad matchup for the Mavs.

20 Lakers would be closest to me in terms of weak competition when considering the Heat were not at 100% and the Nuggets and Rockets matched up relatively poorly with them.


2022? Injured Nuggets, injured Grizzlies, Mavs team that matched up poorly (and just wasnt that good tbh). Finally faced a good team in Boston but could argue they matched up poorly as well.


I don't consider Warriors to have had a matchup advantage over Celtics, if anything the opposite can be argued since their PG defense rotation was one of the best in the league and they can switch a lot of their perimeter players.

The Mavs were a bad-ish matchup against Warriors, but I think 24 Celtics-Warriors was worse, the Celtics this year having the two best defensive guards in the league, wings to deal with the Doncic size problem and floor spacing bigs to stretch out Lively and Gafford was like the worst possible combination for them.
Liberate The Zoomers
The-Power
RealGM
Posts: 10,513
And1: 9,938
Joined: Jan 03, 2014
Location: Germany
   

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4022 » by The-Power » Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:15 pm

jalengreen wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:I think 15 Rockets and Grizzlies are better opponents than any of the Celtics conference ones when you consider the injuries. The Mavs are a better team than Cavs without Kyrie and Love, however the Cavs were a bad matchup for the Warriors, while the Celtics were a bad matchup for the Mavs.

20 Lakers would be closest to me in terms of weak competition when considering the Heat were not at 100% and the Nuggets and Rockets matched up relatively poorly with them.


2022? Injured Nuggets, injured Grizzlies, Mavs team that matched up poorly (and just wasnt that good tbh). Finally faced a good team in Boston but could argue they matched up poorly as well.

I think a lot of that is informed by confirmation bias and/or hindsight. The Nuggets were clearly injured (even though they did still have their MVP and the NBA's best player, so that's still not a complete pushover team) but beyond that, I don't see this as an easy route at all.

The Grizzlies played 3 games with Morant and lost them 1-2 despite having two games at home. Then the Grizzlies played 3 games without Morant and also lost them 1-2 with two games on the road. Meanwhile the Morant-less Grizzlies went 20-5 in the RS with 15 of those 20 wins being by double digits. The team performed +1.7 points per 100 possessions better with Morant not on the court (+6.6 net rating). So I see no reason to view this Grizzlies team as an easy 2nd round opponent. That was a very good and talented team with and without Morant.

The Mavs matching up poorly feels like a retrospective assessment. Here's your own take on this from back then:
jalengreen wrote:
70sFan wrote:To be honest, I see Dallas being well equiped to play against Warriors. Maybe better than Suns - this should be fun series.


i agree, especially if the warriors underperform like they did against the grizz. i think the mavs' defense can have a strong series against golden state with the way they've played

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=99078786#p99078786

Fact is that the Mavs had the 6th best DRTG that year and two strong and resilient offensive players leading the way on the other end. They previously beat an elite Jazz team and the previous year's finalist Suns. They were a strong opponent despite a mediocre RS and I don't see a reason to downplay how dangerous they were (as proven during that run) or believe that they matched up poorly.

And then Boston was obviously an elite team, there's no denying that. And why would you see GSW as a bad match-up for them? The top 7 players in terms of MPG were Brown, Tatum, Smart, Horford, White, R. Williams and G. Williams. That's an elite set of perimeter defenders who can seamlessly switch and overall strong rim protection. They seemed very well constituted to disrupt Golden State's flow-offense and make life hard on Curry as well as Poole (as the secondary driver of the offense). They had some exploitable flaws on offense that met a strong GSW defense matching up fairly well but had they not have these offensive shortcomings, they would indeed have been a really bad match-up for the Warriors. So while I'm not arguing that it's the worst match-up possible for that Warriors team, I certainly do not see a good reason to consider them a particularly good match-up either considering how well-equipped their defense was to bother Curry and the rest.
jalengreen
Starter
Posts: 2,252
And1: 2,008
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
   

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4023 » by jalengreen » Mon Jun 24, 2024 8:29 pm

The-Power wrote:
jalengreen wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:I think 15 Rockets and Grizzlies are better opponents than any of the Celtics conference ones when you consider the injuries. The Mavs are a better team than Cavs without Kyrie and Love, however the Cavs were a bad matchup for the Warriors, while the Celtics were a bad matchup for the Mavs.

20 Lakers would be closest to me in terms of weak competition when considering the Heat were not at 100% and the Nuggets and Rockets matched up relatively poorly with them.


2022? Injured Nuggets, injured Grizzlies, Mavs team that matched up poorly (and just wasnt that good tbh). Finally faced a good team in Boston but could argue they matched up poorly as well.

I think a lot of that is informed by confirmation bias and/or hindsight. The Nuggets were clearly injured (even though they did still have their MVP and the NBA's best player, so that's still not a complete pushover team) but beyond that, I don't see this as an easy route at all.

The Grizzlies played 3 games with Morant and lost them 1-2 despite having two games at home. Then the Grizzlies played 3 games without Morant and also lost them 1-2 with two games on the road. Meanwhile the Morant-less Grizzlies went 20-5 in the RS with 15 of those 20 wins being by double digits. The team performed +1.7 points per 100 possessions better with Morant not on the court (+6.6 net rating). So I see no reason to view this Grizzlies team as an easy 2nd round opponent. That was a very good and talented team with and without Morant.

The Mavs matching up poorly feels like a retrospective assessment. Here's your own take on this from back then:
jalengreen wrote:
70sFan wrote:To be honest, I see Dallas being well equiped to play against Warriors. Maybe better than Suns - this should be fun series.


i agree, especially if the warriors underperform like they did against the grizz. i think the mavs' defense can have a strong series against golden state with the way they've played

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=99078786#p99078786

Fact is that the Mavs had the 6th best DRTG that year and two strong and resilient offensive players leading the way on the other end. They previously beat an elite Jazz team and the previous year's finalist Suns. They were a strong opponent despite a mediocre RS and I don't see a reason to downplay how dangerous they were (as proven during that run) or believe that they matched up poorly.

And then Boston was obviously an elite team, there's no denying that. And why would you see GSW as a bad match-up for them? The top 7 players in terms of MPG were Brown, Tatum, Smart, Horford, White, R. Williams and G. Williams. That's an elite set of perimeter defenders who can seamlessly switch and overall strong rim protection. They seemed very well constituted to disrupt Golden State's flow-offense and make life hard on Curry as well as Poole (as the secondary driver of the offense). They had some exploitable flaws on offense that met a strong GSW defense matching up fairly well but had they not have these offensive shortcomings, they would indeed have been a really bad match-up for the Warriors. So while I'm not arguing that it's the worst match-up possible for that Warriors team, I certainly do not see a good reason to consider them a particularly good match-up either considering how well-equipped their defense was to bother Curry and the rest.


I do remember a lot of Warriors fans trying to use the “Grizzlies are actually better without Ja” argument, but yeah I just don’t personally agree with it. In 2021 Ja had a +3.4 on/off, in 2023 he had a +6.5, and in 2024 he had a +8.3. Maybe in 2022 specifically he wasn’t really impactful and Memphis didn’t need him, but I do not believe that at all and I don’t think on/off tells us much here.

Yes, I think matchup analysis can certainly be retrospective. We don’t know everything as fans; if you did, you could probably make a lot of money off of that talent. People talk about how matchups were so important in the Western Conference playoffs; would it surprise you if I said that the Timberwolves entered the WCF as favorites against a team that people generally agree they matched up poorly against? There’s a retrospective component to this; as there is to people’s evaluation of all of these playoff runs. Wiggins’ ability to essentially lock up Tatum all series because of his deficiency as his team’s star was glaring. Robert Williams was great! And injured. I should’ve mentioned that as well, actually.

I don’t think people’s takes on the series really holds much weight either. People generally thought the Mavs would beat Boston this year, and that DEN/MIN was the WCF. Does that mean we should say that DAL was a really tough Finals matchup? No, I don’t think that’s the most practical approach. You can probably find a lot of really dumb takes of mine lol, my username is a draft bust. I’m totally capable of overrating Dallas after seeing them completely dismantle a superior Phoenix team, and that’s probably exactly what I did. I also notice that people think the 2020 Lakers run was easy now despite many people picking against them every round at the time, but I didn’t bring that up so I guess it’s a philosophical difference as to how much that matters.
parsnips33
Head Coach
Posts: 7,477
And1: 3,434
Joined: Sep 01, 2014
 

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4024 » by parsnips33 » Mon Jun 24, 2024 9:33 pm

Man I really will not be happy to see Klay and Looney go if that's indeed what's gonna happen

Sure I have my favorite players, but this era of Warriors basketball has been all about the TEAM, I don't care how corny it sounds. Seems like something shifted in the past 10-15 years where it became more normal to just be a fan of certain players and follow them around than be a fan of a team. The Warriors have, at least to me, represented an answer to that
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,130
And1: 5,976
Joined: Jul 24, 2022

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4025 » by AEnigma » Wed Jun 26, 2024 2:45 am

“Villanova Knicks” aside, I do not much care for this trade by itself. I hope a Randle for *all-star* trade is soon to follow, because as is, I do not see Brunson being able to carry a championship offence as his team’s only reliable postseason playmaker.
bballcool34
General Manager
Posts: 8,484
And1: 667
Joined: Mar 13, 2005
   

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4026 » by bballcool34 » Wed Jun 26, 2024 3:15 am

AEnigma wrote:“Villanova Knicks” aside, I do not much care for this trade by itself. I hope a Randle for *all-star* trade is soon to follow, because as is, I do not see Brunson being able to carry a championship offence as his team’s only reliable postseason playmaker.


The Knicks during the regular season were a good offense and with Brunson on the court a great offense

Haven’t checked the post season numbers but they were so injured a bit hard to take much from it
Damn
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,414
And1: 9,942
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4027 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jun 26, 2024 1:03 pm

jalengreen wrote:
I do remember a lot of Warriors fans trying to use the “Grizzlies are actually better without Ja” argument, but yeah I just don’t personally agree with it. In 2021 Ja had a +3.4 on/off, in 2023 he had a +6.5, and in 2024 he had a +8.3. Maybe in 2022 specifically he wasn’t really impactful and Memphis didn’t need him, but I do not believe that at all and I don’t think on/off tells us much here.

Yes, I think matchup analysis can certainly be retrospective. We don’t know everything as fans; if you did, you could probably make a lot of money off of that talent. People talk about how matchups were so important in the Western Conference playoffs; would it surprise you if I said that the Timberwolves entered the WCF as favorites against a team that people generally agree they matched up poorly against? There’s a retrospective component to this; as there is to people’s evaluation of all of these playoff runs. Wiggins’ ability to essentially lock up Tatum all series because of his deficiency as his team’s star was glaring. Robert Williams was great! And injured. I should’ve mentioned that as well, actually.

I don’t think people’s takes on the series really holds much weight either. People generally thought the Mavs would beat Boston this year, and that DEN/MIN was the WCF. Does that mean we should say that DAL was a really tough Finals matchup? No, I don’t think that’s the most practical approach. You can probably find a lot of really dumb takes of mine lol, my username is a draft bust. I’m totally capable of overrating Dallas after seeing them completely dismantle a superior Phoenix team, and that’s probably exactly what I did. I also notice that people think the 2020 Lakers run was easy now despite many people picking against them every round at the time, but I didn’t bring that up so I guess it’s a philosophical difference as to how much that matters.


We got a very different perception of what people were saying here on the site this year. I did get the impression that people thought whoever won the Denver/Minnesota series would then make the finals, but I also got a clear impression that Boston was the overwhelming favorite to go to the finals and the clear favorite to win them.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,130
And1: 5,976
Joined: Jul 24, 2022

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4028 » by AEnigma » Wed Jun 26, 2024 1:20 pm

Do not think it was the sentiment here but the public seemed weirdly supportive of the Mavericks in the Finals, and then to whatever extent we want to equate the communities, I saw a majority on a Thinking Basketball Youtube poll vote for the Mavericks.

Unclear to what extent any of that was a product of belief in the team or just antipathy toward the Celtics.
The-Power
RealGM
Posts: 10,513
And1: 9,938
Joined: Jan 03, 2014
Location: Germany
   

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4029 » by The-Power » Wed Jun 26, 2024 2:30 pm

AEnigma wrote:Unclear to what extent any of that was a product of belief in the team or just antipathy toward the Celtics.

I'd venture the guess that a lot of it is due to being a prisoner of the moment. People just saw the Mavericks dismantle the league's best defense while the Celtics merely took care of business versus outmatched opponents. Add to it the popular ‘best player in this series’ heuristic and the aura of playoff resilience that surrounds Luka (and to a lesser extent Irving) whereas the Celtics had previously twice lost to inferior teams on paper (Warriors in 2022, and Heat in 2023), and I'm not surprised that a lot of people bought Mavericks stock at that moment in time.
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,853
And1: 16,408
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4030 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:40 pm

Shame the Knicks may have no choice but to lose Harteinstein (since can only bid like 16 million starting salary I think)
Liberate The Zoomers
Special_Puppy
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,954
And1: 2,652
Joined: Sep 23, 2023

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4031 » by Special_Puppy » Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:46 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Shame the Knicks may have no choice but to lose Harteinstein (since can only bid like 16 million starting salary I think)


So you are effectively giving up Hartenstein and 5 first-round picks for Mikal Bridges. Seems rough
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,853
And1: 16,408
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4032 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Jun 26, 2024 5:48 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Shame the Knicks may have no choice but to lose Harteinstein (since can only bid like 16 million starting salary I think)


So you are effectively giving up Hartenstein and 5 first-round picks for Mikal Bridges. Seems rough


I think the Bridges trade didn't affect how much they could pay Hartenstein
Liberate The Zoomers
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 34,243
And1: 21,858
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4033 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:08 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Shame the Knicks may have no choice but to lose Harteinstein (since can only bid like 16 million starting salary I think)


So you are effectively giving up Hartenstein and 5 first-round picks for Mikal Bridges. Seems rough


No, Hartenstein could only be paid by the Knicks a set amount. The Knicks have had what, 3 days to openly discuss with Hartenstein about his plans to re-sign.

I think it is fair to assume at this point Hartenstein didn't want to resign at the number the Knicks could offer.
User avatar
eminence
RealGM
Posts: 17,056
And1: 11,870
Joined: Mar 07, 2015

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4034 » by eminence » Wed Jun 26, 2024 6:14 pm

A) Losing Hartenstein hurts

B) I think the Knicks probably overpaid a bit for Bridges

C) Assuming they bring OG back I still like how the Knicks will be looking going into next season quite a lot (may need a bit of help at the C spot given Robinson's health history)
I bought a boat.
parsnips33
Head Coach
Posts: 7,477
And1: 3,434
Joined: Sep 01, 2014
 

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4035 » by parsnips33 » Wed Jun 26, 2024 11:13 pm

I like what the Knicks are doing, feels like they are building up to take on Boston
lessthanjake
Analyst
Posts: 3,358
And1: 3,014
Joined: Apr 13, 2013

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4036 » by lessthanjake » Thu Jun 27, 2024 4:37 pm

I think OKC getting Alex Caruso is a really big deal. He has a hard time staying healthy, but when healthy I think he’s perhaps the best role player of his generation. Impact numbers have him up there with Gobert in terms of defensive impact, and while he’s offensively limited he did actually shoot over 40% on threes last year on pretty decent volume and he can pass fairly well. Just a really top-tier role player. Of course, perhaps he’ll just get injured and it won’t help them, but if he’s healthy then I think it’s a pretty significant improvement.

As for the Knicks, I don’t quite know what to think. When they were healthy last year, they actually were extremely good. Anything you look at in terms of how they did with OG looks incredible. For instance, in games with Brunson, OG, and Randle, the Knicks were 11-1, with a +17.3 net rating (note: This isn’t just minutes with them all on the court—it’s overall for the entire game). In their RS+Playoff minutes together, Brunson and OG had a +18.12 net rating, and it was +24.11 just in the regular season. And Mikal Bridges is a really good player who we can probably assume will have good chemistry with the team, given the college connection between so many of them. So, in theory, a healthy Knicks team could actually be a real juggernaut. Or maybe the data on how well they did after getting OG is just small sample size theater. It’s hard to say. My guess is they’re going to be really good though. You’ve got a great set of defenders surrounding a top 5 offensive player, and that’s a really good combination to have! Losing Hartenstein may make the defense take a step backwards though, even with Bridges being brought in.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,285
And1: 31,867
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4037 » by tsherkin » Thu Jun 27, 2024 4:43 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:There were injury issues and there were attitude issues, but in terms of a 3rd factor, I feel like this next group was actually biased toward chucking - shooting shots beyond one's capabilities merit - in the wake of Jordan. It kinda felt like guys were only taking a fraction of the message they should have from the previous generation's best.


I wanted to circle back to this point, because it resonates strongly with me.

In Jordan's early years, he was a call-back to other guys who scored a lot and didn't really win until they started shooting less. The whole banner cry of "scoring champions don't win titles" and all that stuff, right?

And MJ had his lessons to learn, his compromises to make with Phil for more team involvement and all that. And better rosters to find built around himself as time passed. He was also a better scorer than a lot of his wing contemporaries, and/or a better playmaker than those wing dudes who were on a similar plane relative to their league. He was a lot better at his peak than Baylor even if you just focus on performance relative to league average (and most of his worst seasons correlate with Baylor's best, even if you ignore raw efficiency), and he was considerably better at shot creation/playmaking than Gervin or English. And in general a lot better at Nique at most things beyond rebounding. Erving starts be a little more interesting, but wasn't as much the volume guy in the NBA.

Anyway, I ramble.

People looked at the volume and the isos, and they didn't so much see the off-ball movement, the post game. Him leveraging his favorite spots. The fundamentals behind his success. It's one of the things which held back a guy like Kobe, despite his skills and other tools (and this is obviously a relative term, given Kobe's myriad successes). Jordan had his flaws, but he had many strengths which go overlooked, and which certainly did in the generation coming up behind him.

You see it all over the place, especially in old-heads doing sport commentary. Volume is valued in and of itself, because people love PPG. It's simplistic, it's easy to see, it's simple to measure. It lacks nuance, so it isn't hard to grasp. And then we saw Iverson carry that banner forward.

And it was sadly the wrong message to sell, because it escaped a lot of what made MJ who he was. It no doubt exerted a palpable influence on the Next, and not necessarily a good one. Especially with the media punishing people who couldn't score at a given volume which had no objective value.

EDIT to Add: Almost like the opposite of what Magic and Bird had fostered.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,539
And1: 22,533
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4038 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 27, 2024 4:55 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:There were injury issues and there were attitude issues, but in terms of a 3rd factor, I feel like this next group was actually biased toward chucking - shooting shots beyond one's capabilities merit - in the wake of Jordan. It kinda felt like guys were only taking a fraction of the message they should have from the previous generation's best.


I wanted to circle back to this point, because it resonates strongly with me.

In Jordan's early years, he was a call-back to other guys who scored a lot and didn't really win until they started shooting less. The whole banner cry of "scoring champions don't win titles" and all that stuff, right?

And MJ had his lessons to learn, his compromises to make with Phil for more team involvement and all that. And better rosters to find built around himself as time passed. He was also a better scorer than a lot of his wing contemporaries, and/or a better playmaker than those wing dudes who were on a similar plane relative to their league. He was a lot better at his peak than Baylor even if you just focus on performance relative to league average (and most of his worst seasons correlate with Baylor's best, even if you ignore raw efficiency), and he was considerably better at shot creation/playmaking than Gervin or English. And in general a lot better at Nique at most things beyond rebounding. Erving starts be a little more interesting, but wasn't as much the volume guy in the NBA.

Anyway, I ramble.

People looked at the volume and the isos, and they didn't so much see the off-ball movement, the post game. Him leveraging his favorite spots. The fundamentals behind his success. It's one of the things which held back a guy like Kobe, despite his skills and other tools (and this is obviously a relative term, given Kobe's myriad successes). Jordan had his flaws, but he had many strengths which go overlooked, and which certainly did in the generation coming up behind him.

You see it all over the place, especially in old-heads doing sport commentary. Volume is valued in and of itself, because people love PPG. It's simplistic, it's easy to see, it's simple to measure. It lacks nuance, so it isn't hard to grasp. And then we saw Iverson carry that banner forward.

And it was sadly the wrong message to sell, because it escaped a lot of what made MJ who he was. It no doubt exerted a palpable influence on the Next, and not necessarily a good one. Especially with the media punishing people who couldn't score at a given volume which had no objective value.

EDIT to Add: Almost like the opposite of what Magic and Bird had fostered.


Co-sign all of this.

On the broadest of levels we have to remember that this is normal for humans. We try to "bottle" the successes we see as simple logic rules, and in doing so, we lose nuance.

I'll also say: This is the essence of how someone like us can dare to suggest that NBA players and others close to them are missing things beyond analytics. NBA players tend to think that whatever was in the cultural waters when they came of age IS basketball, and to have no understanding for how thinking has shifted back & forth over the longer history of the game.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,590
And1: 98,928
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4039 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Jun 27, 2024 5:05 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:NBA players tend to think that whatever was in the cultural waters when they came of age IS basketball, and to have no understanding for how thinking has shifted back & forth over the longer history of the game.


I'm going to be a dissenting view on this. Sure for some of them this is true. But there are plenty of exceptions. The Lakers new head coach a great example. James Harden another. Al Horford and Brook Lopez big man examples. Your guy Steve Nash has been very vocal about this even as he failed as a coach for reasons besides understanding the direction the game was going.

In fact I would say a much higher percentage of players adjust than do basketball fans who tend to be much more stuck in the generation where they first found basketball. It's the main reason Jordan and Kobe topics get so off tracks all the type. These fans just can't possibly imagine a possibility where their hero wasn't playing optimally at all times. Players certainly respect these former greats and hold them in high reverence, but also don't try and play like them knowing better.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,285
And1: 31,867
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: 2023-24 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#4040 » by tsherkin » Thu Jun 27, 2024 5:09 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:On the broadest of levels we have to remember that this is normal for humans. We try to "bottle" the successes we see as simple logic rules, and in doing so, we lose nuance.


Of course. I was just talking about this in another thread, about imitation in the absence of talent as a common cycle in the NBA. Tempo, 3pt shooting, The Next (whomever), etc.

I'll also say: This is the essence of how someone like us can dare to suggest that NBA players and others close to them are missing things beyond analytics. NBA players tend to think that whatever was in the cultural waters when they came of age IS basketball, and to have no understanding for how thinking has shifted back & forth over the longer history of the game.


Ayep. People are very much rooted in their adolescence in a lot of ways, and it limits thinking very notably without effort paid to perspective and history.

Return to Player Comparisons