Rank these off-peak LeBron years

[Colbinii]

2015 was a really significant outlier for LeBron in terms of rTS% in the playoffs.

Yes it was. Does it make him a worse player?

Prior to the 2015 playoffs, LeBron had gone six years without having a negative rTS% series, and then had a negative rTS% in every single series in 2015, followed by only having one negative rTS% series in the next five years. That’s a big deal! I think it’s fine to point to playoff rORTG as a counterpoint to that. The 2015 Cavs did have a higher playoff rORTG that year than LeBron’s teams had in the other years in consideration here (despite injuries to major players during the playoffs). But rORTG is a function of much more than just what LeBron James does. If his team had a better rORTG in a series where he shot abnormally badly, then it’s likely his teammates simply made up for it by doing abnormally well in some way.

For instance, his teammates shot super well from three against the Bulls and Hawks.

That isn't how it works. There isn't only A [LeBron's TS%] and B [LeBron's teammates shooting]. Context is important here.

Who is dictating the offense? LeBron James
Who is making a majority of the decisions? LeBron James

Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James ON in EC PS: 35.8%
Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James OFF in EC PS: 34.6%

LeBron James teammates shooting isn't mutually exclusive from LeBron James' impact on an offense.

Another point of note is the Cavaliers make many more assisted shots when on the court with LeBron James. Whether this is a direct assist from LeBron James or LeBron James creating a 4v3 by driving and the team making the correct pass is a shot created from the driving of LeBron James.

Mozgov and Thompson were also pretty dominant on the offensive boards during those playoffs. And I believe the 2015 Cavs offense in the playoffs actually had positive rORTG even in minutes LeBron was off the court, which definitely was abnormal, particularly under the injury circumstances. These sorts of things happen in small samples, and they really don’t have to mean that the team’s best player was playing better than other years despite the individual stats indicating that he really wasn’t.

So, let's just say that LeBron's rTS% is something we really want to hone in on. We want to ignore all the terrific playmaking, difficult shot diet, incredible passing and incredible rim pressure LeBron puts on a defense. Let's do all that--ignore it all, chalk LeBron up to a neutral offensive player.

LeBron is--in his post-season minutes in the EC--outscoring opponents by an incredible amount. He still has a Net Rtg of +8.9.

Regarding defense, the Cavaliers defense was excellent. They held all opponents below their RS Ortg.

And, going a bit further on why I value the 2015 season: I don't really have scoring efficiency as LeBron's most important attribute. That is to say, I think LeBron can still have an ATG impact by volume scoring + elite playmaking + elite defense. He can still have a tremendous impact on a game by taking a larger scoring load + defensive responsibility + defensive role + offensive facilitator. When he is getting +rTS%, it's when we see LeBron getting seasons that are very much, in my eyes, GOAT level peaks. 2015 is similar to 2011 in that regard where his rTS% does take a hit but his overall impact is still overall ATG level.

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

What are you talking about?

Let's back-up.

I said 2015/2011/2008 are all ATG peaks and listed the levels of players it is similar to.

[lessthanjake]

Yes it was. Does it make him a worse player?



That isn't how it works. There isn't only A [LeBron's TS%] and B [LeBron's teammates shooting]. Context is important here.

Who is dictating the offense? LeBron James
Who is making a majority of the decisions? LeBron James

Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James ON in EC PS: 35.8%
Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James OFF in EC PS: 34.6%

LeBron James teammates shooting isn't mutually exclusive from LeBron James' impact on an offense.

Another point of note is the Cavaliers make many more assisted shots when on the court with LeBron James. Whether this is a direct assist from LeBron James or LeBron James creating a 4v3 by driving and the team making the correct pass is a shot created from the driving of LeBron James.



So, let's just say that LeBron's rTS% is something we really want to hone in on. We want to ignore all the terrific playmaking, difficult shot diet, incredible passing and incredible rim pressure LeBron puts on a defense. Let's do all that--ignore it all, chalk LeBron up to a neutral offensive player.

LeBron is--in his post-season minutes in the EC--outscoring opponents by an incredible amount. He still has a Net Rtg of +8.9.

Regarding defense, the Cavaliers defense was excellent. They held all opponents below their RS Ortg.

And, going a bit further on why I value the 2015 season: I don't really have scoring efficiency as LeBron's most important attribute. That is to say, I think LeBron can still have an ATG impact by volume scoring + elite playmaking + elite defense. He can still have a tremendous impact on a game by taking a larger scoring load + defensive responsibility + defensive role + offensive facilitator. When he is getting +rTS%, it's when we see LeBron getting seasons that are very much, in my eyes, GOAT level peaks. 2015 is similar to 2011 in that regard where his rTS% does take a hit but his overall impact is still overall ATG level.

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

What are you talking about?

Let's back-up.

I said 2015/2011/2008 are all ATG peaks and listed the levels of players it is similar to.

Umm…I’m talking about the actual topic of this thread…

Which probably should’ve been pretty obvious when the first sentence of the paragraph in my post that you initially responded to said: “I’m also not quite sure how this line of thinking maps on to ranking LeBron’s years against each other.”

[Colbinii]

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

What are you talking about?

Let's back-up.

I said 2015/2011/2008 are all ATG peaks and listed the levels of players it is similar to.

Umm…I’m talking about the actual topic of this thread…

Which probably should’ve been pretty obvious when the first sentence of the paragraph in my post that you initially responded to said: “I’m also not quite sure how this line of thinking maps on to ranking LeBron’s years against each other.”

Cool.

Well yeah, I have 2015/2011/2008 as the Top Tier of the seasons in this thread, and equate them to ATG Peaks as listed earlier.

[PistolPeteJR]

2015 was a really significant outlier for LeBron in terms of rTS% in the playoffs.

Yes it was. Does it make him a worse player?

Prior to the 2015 playoffs, LeBron had gone six years without having a negative rTS% series, and then had a negative rTS% in every single series in 2015, followed by only having one negative rTS% series in the next five years. That’s a big deal! I think it’s fine to point to playoff rORTG as a counterpoint to that. The 2015 Cavs did have a higher playoff rORTG that year than LeBron’s teams had in the other years in consideration here (despite injuries to major players during the playoffs). But rORTG is a function of much more than just what LeBron James does. If his team had a better rORTG in a series where he shot abnormally badly, then it’s likely his teammates simply made up for it by doing abnormally well in some way.

For instance, his teammates shot super well from three against the Bulls and Hawks.

That isn't how it works. There isn't only A [LeBron's TS%] and B [LeBron's teammates shooting]. Context is important here.

Who is dictating the offense? LeBron James
Who is making a majority of the decisions? LeBron James

Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James ON in EC PS: 35.8%
Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James OFF in EC PS: 34.6%

LeBron James teammates shooting isn't mutually exclusive from LeBron James' impact on an offense.

Another point of note is the Cavaliers make many more assisted shots when on the court with LeBron James. Whether this is a direct assist from LeBron James or LeBron James creating a 4v3 by driving and the team making the correct pass is a shot created from the driving of LeBron James.

Mozgov and Thompson were also pretty dominant on the offensive boards during those playoffs. And I believe the 2015 Cavs offense in the playoffs actually had positive rORTG even in minutes LeBron was off the court, which definitely was abnormal, particularly under the injury circumstances. These sorts of things happen in small samples, and they really don’t have to mean that the team’s best player was playing better than other years despite the individual stats indicating that he really wasn’t.

So, let's just say that LeBron's rTS% is something we really want to hone in on. We want to ignore all the terrific playmaking, difficult shot diet, incredible passing and incredible rim pressure LeBron puts on a defense. Let's do all that--ignore it all, chalk LeBron up to a neutral offensive player.

LeBron is--in his post-season minutes in the EC--outscoring opponents by an incredible amount. He still has a Net Rtg of +8.9.

Regarding defense, the Cavaliers defense was excellent. They held all opponents below their RS Ortg.

And, going a bit further on why I value the 2015 season: I don't really have scoring efficiency as LeBron's most important attribute. That is to say, I think LeBron can still have an ATG impact by volume scoring + elite playmaking + elite defense. He can still have a tremendous impact on a game by taking a larger scoring load + defensive responsibility + defensive role + offensive facilitator. When he is getting +rTS%, it's when we see LeBron getting seasons that are very much, in my eyes, GOAT level peaks. 2015 is similar to 2011 in that regard where his rTS% does take a hit but his overall impact is still overall ATG level.

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you think his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

I'll say what Colbinii hasn't yet said because it's blatantly obvious and tbh, a bit frustrating:

You completely ignored everything else he said and honed in on the very last point he made. I think you ought to acknowledge the other stuff too instead of what seems to be abandoning ship when there is no rebuttal.

[OhayoKD]

Yes it was. Does it make him a worse player?



That isn't how it works. There isn't only A [LeBron's TS%] and B [LeBron's teammates shooting]. Context is important here.

Who is dictating the offense? LeBron James
Who is making a majority of the decisions? LeBron James

Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James ON in EC PS: 35.8%
Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James OFF in EC PS: 34.6%

LeBron James teammates shooting isn't mutually exclusive from LeBron James' impact on an offense.

Another point of note is the Cavaliers make many more assisted shots when on the court with LeBron James. Whether this is a direct assist from LeBron James or LeBron James creating a 4v3 by driving and the team making the correct pass is a shot created from the driving of LeBron James.



So, let's just say that LeBron's rTS% is something we really want to hone in on. We want to ignore all the terrific playmaking, difficult shot diet, incredible passing and incredible rim pressure LeBron puts on a defense. Let's do all that--ignore it all, chalk LeBron up to a neutral offensive player.

LeBron is--in his post-season minutes in the EC--outscoring opponents by an incredible amount. He still has a Net Rtg of +8.9.

Regarding defense, the Cavaliers defense was excellent. They held all opponents below their RS Ortg.

And, going a bit further on why I value the 2015 season: I don't really have scoring efficiency as LeBron's most important attribute. That is to say, I think LeBron can still have an ATG impact by volume scoring + elite playmaking + elite defense. He can still have a tremendous impact on a game by taking a larger scoring load + defensive responsibility + defensive role + offensive facilitator. When he is getting +rTS%, it's when we see LeBron getting seasons that are very much, in my eyes, GOAT level peaks. 2015 is similar to 2011 in that regard where his rTS% does take a hit but his overall impact is still overall ATG level.

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you think his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

I'll say what Colbinii hasn't yet said because it's blatantly obvious and tbh, a bit frustrating:

You completely ignored everything else he said and honed in on the very last point he made. I think you ought to acknowledge the other stuff too instead of what seems to be abandoning ship when there is no rebuttal.

Bad ts and still carried his team more than peak Jordan, Jokic, or Curry ever did.

I can understand the frustration.

[lessthanjake]

Yes it was. Does it make him a worse player?



That isn't how it works. There isn't only A [LeBron's TS%] and B [LeBron's teammates shooting]. Context is important here.

Who is dictating the offense? LeBron James
Who is making a majority of the decisions? LeBron James

Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James ON in EC PS: 35.8%
Cleveland Cavaliers 3P% LeBron James OFF in EC PS: 34.6%

LeBron James teammates shooting isn't mutually exclusive from LeBron James' impact on an offense.

Another point of note is the Cavaliers make many more assisted shots when on the court with LeBron James. Whether this is a direct assist from LeBron James or LeBron James creating a 4v3 by driving and the team making the correct pass is a shot created from the driving of LeBron James.



So, let's just say that LeBron's rTS% is something we really want to hone in on. We want to ignore all the terrific playmaking, difficult shot diet, incredible passing and incredible rim pressure LeBron puts on a defense. Let's do all that--ignore it all, chalk LeBron up to a neutral offensive player.

LeBron is--in his post-season minutes in the EC--outscoring opponents by an incredible amount. He still has a Net Rtg of +8.9.

Regarding defense, the Cavaliers defense was excellent. They held all opponents below their RS Ortg.

And, going a bit further on why I value the 2015 season: I don't really have scoring efficiency as LeBron's most important attribute. That is to say, I think LeBron can still have an ATG impact by volume scoring + elite playmaking + elite defense. He can still have a tremendous impact on a game by taking a larger scoring load + defensive responsibility + defensive role + offensive facilitator. When he is getting +rTS%, it's when we see LeBron getting seasons that are very much, in my eyes, GOAT level peaks. 2015 is similar to 2011 in that regard where his rTS% does take a hit but his overall impact is still overall ATG level.

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you think his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

I'll say what Colbinii hasn't yet said because it's blatantly obvious and tbh, a bit frustrating:

You completely ignored everything else he said and honed in on the very last point he made. I think you ought to acknowledge the other stuff too instead of what seems to be abandoning ship when there is no rebuttal.

I don’t even know what “other stuff” you’re referring to. I think my post addressed essentially everything in Colbinii’s post as it relates to the actual subject of this thread, though obviously I didn’t go line by line and individually address every sentence, since that would be a waste of time. Moreover, I think it’s pretty obvious from my exchange with Colbinii that the issue is moreso that we were talking past each other—I was focused specifically on the subject of this thread, while Colbinii was focused on defending something he had said that was not directly related to the subject of this thread and that I therefore simply wasn’t arguing with him about. I clarified that with Colbinii, and he made a brief reply and the discussion naturally ran its course. I’m not sure what else you’d want me to be discussing here, when you’re inserting yourself in a discussion in which it is clear two people were talking past each other. I’m really not obligated to respond to things Colbinii said that go to a point that I was never responding to in the first place.

[PistolPeteJR]

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you think his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

I'll say what Colbinii hasn't yet said because it's blatantly obvious and tbh, a bit frustrating:

You completely ignored everything else he said and honed in on the very last point he made. I think you ought to acknowledge the other stuff too instead of what seems to be abandoning ship when there is no rebuttal.

I don’t even know what “other stuff” you’re referring to. I think my post addressed essentially everything in Colbinii’s post as it relates to the actual subject of this thread, though obviously I didn’t go line by line and individually address every sentence, since that would be a waste of time. Moreover, I think it’s pretty obvious from my exchange with Colbinii that the issue is moreso that we were talking past each other—I was focused specifically on the subject of this thread, while Colbinii was focused on defending something he had said that was not directly related to the subject of this thread and that I therefore simply wasn’t arguing with him about. I clarified that with Colbinii, and he made a brief reply and the discussion naturally ran its course. I’m not sure what else you’d want me to be discussing here, when you’re inserting yourself in a discussion in which it is clear two people were talking past each other. I’m really not obligated to respond to things Colbinii said that go to a point that I was never responding to in the first place.

Waste of time? Seriously? He's responding to what you said and did you the decency of rebutting what you had to say AFTER you had already rebutted what he had said, but when you got pinned in a corner on a number of those things, you disappeared on all of those.

I don't expect anything less though, to be honest, as sad as that is. It's the same thing, every time, rinse and repeat.

Humility would look something like, "Oh great points, didn't consider that, you're right." Or perhaps, "Hm, I'm not sure, I need to process this but you make good arguments" instead of sweeping that which you have no rebuttals for under the rug.

[ShotCreator]

This is tough. Hard to say without watching the seasons in detail because statistically they're all strong and weak in the same ways.

2011 and 2015 LeBron did not have great ends to their playoff runs defensively. LeBron was clunky and flat footed against GS, with the high load killing his motor and was a mistake-prone mess against Dallas.

06 and and especially 07 were tough offensively at times in the playoffs.

2008 is probably the stand out. Really good on both ends in the RS. Rough offensive series against Boston.

But I couldn't tell you why it's necessarily better than 06 and 07. Just that's it's not as flawed as 11 and 15.

Under the pressure of strong defense I feel 06-08 Lebron are virtually all the same territory. And I'd bet the bottom wouldn't drop out like in 2011 and 2015.

2008
2007
2006
2015
2011

[lessthanjake]

I'll say what Colbinii hasn't yet said because it's blatantly obvious and tbh, a bit frustrating:

You completely ignored everything else he said and honed in on the very last point he made. I think you ought to acknowledge the other stuff too instead of what seems to be abandoning ship when there is no rebuttal.

I don’t even know what “other stuff” you’re referring to. I think my post addressed essentially everything in Colbinii’s post as it relates to the actual subject of this thread, though obviously I didn’t go line by line and individually address every sentence, since that would be a waste of time. Moreover, I think it’s pretty obvious from my exchange with Colbinii that the issue is moreso that we were talking past each other—I was focused specifically on the subject of this thread, while Colbinii was focused on defending something he had said that was not directly related to the subject of this thread and that I therefore simply wasn’t arguing with him about. I clarified that with Colbinii, and he made a brief reply and the discussion naturally ran its course. I’m not sure what else you’d want me to be discussing here, when you’re inserting yourself in a discussion in which it is clear two people were talking past each other. I’m really not obligated to respond to things Colbinii said that go to a point that I was never responding to in the first place.

Waste of time? Seriously? He's responding to what you said and did you the decency of rebutting what you had to say AFTER you had already rebutted what he had said, but when you got pinned in a corner on a number of those things, you disappeared on all of those.

I don't expect anything less though, to be honest, as sad as that is. It's the same thing, every time, rinse and repeat.

Humility would look something like, "Oh great points, didn't consider that, you're right." Or perhaps, "Hm, I'm not sure, I need to process this but you make good arguments" instead of sweeping that which you have no rebuttals for under the rug.

This is honestly a completely insane post. I responded to Colbinii as relevant to *what I had actually said*, which very explicitly related specifically to comparisons between different years of LeBron’s career. And, need I remind you, what I had actually said was stuff that was actually on topic for the thread, since this is a thread about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to anyone else. I was not “pinned in a corner” about something that I was not talking about and that is not the subject of this thread. Nor am I in any way obligated to respond to things that go to an assertion Colbinii made that I’d not been responding to (and that, again, did not directly relate to the subject matter of this thread). And I am *certainly* not obligated to spend my time going line by line to do so. You are basically imagining that I said things I didn’t say, and then getting upset at me that I didn’t reply to someone’s post as if I’d previously made the arguments you’ve imagined that I made. It’s basically just getting mad at someone for not addressing a straw man! I responded to Colbinii’s post to the extent it was relevant to what I’d actually been saying (and to the actual subject of the thread). To forcefully suggest I have an obligation to do more than that is just weird. What makes your post even more perplexing is that I just explained all this to you above (after having already clarified that to Colbinii before you ever posted), and yet here you double down on it. I just don’t understand it in any way. The only thing I’d say is to go back and read my posts in this thread thoroughly, with a particular eye to how I’m consistently very clearly talking about comparing different LeBron years to each other, and then also consider that that’s the explicit subject matter of this thread.

[PistolPeteJR]

I don’t even know what “other stuff” you’re referring to. I think my post addressed essentially everything in Colbinii’s post as it relates to the actual subject of this thread, though obviously I didn’t go line by line and individually address every sentence, since that would be a waste of time. Moreover, I think it’s pretty obvious from my exchange with Colbinii that the issue is moreso that we were talking past each other—I was focused specifically on the subject of this thread, while Colbinii was focused on defending something he had said that was not directly related to the subject of this thread and that I therefore simply wasn’t arguing with him about. I clarified that with Colbinii, and he made a brief reply and the discussion naturally ran its course. I’m not sure what else you’d want me to be discussing here, when you’re inserting yourself in a discussion in which it is clear two people were talking past each other. I’m really not obligated to respond to things Colbinii said that go to a point that I was never responding to in the first place.

Waste of time? Seriously? He's responding to what you said and did you the decency of rebutting what you had to say AFTER you had already rebutted what he had said, but when you got pinned in a corner on a number of those things, you disappeared on all of those.

I don't expect anything less though, to be honest, as sad as that is. It's the same thing, every time, rinse and repeat.

Humility would look something like, "Oh great points, didn't consider that, you're right." Or perhaps, "Hm, I'm not sure, I need to process this but you make good arguments" instead of sweeping that which you have no rebuttals for under the rug.

This is honestly a completely insane post. I responded to Colbinii as relevant to *what I had actually said*, which very explicitly related specifically to comparisons between different years of LeBron’s career. And, need I remind you, what I had actually said was stuff that was actually on topic for the thread, since this is a thread about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to anyone else. I was not “pinned in a corner” about something that I was not talking about and that is not the subject of this thread. Nor am I in any way obligated to respond to things that go to an assertion Colbinii made that I’d not been responding to (and that, again, did not directly relate to the subject matter of this thread). And I am *certainly* not obligated to spend my time going line by line to do so. You are basically imagining that I said things I didn’t say, and then getting upset at me that I didn’t reply to someone’s post as if I’d previously made the arguments you’ve imagined that I made. It’s basically just getting mad at someone for not addressing a straw man! I responded to Colbinii’s post to the extent it was relevant to what I’d actually been saying (and to the actual subject of the thread). To forcefully suggest I have an obligation to do more than that is just weird. What makes your post even more perplexing is that I just explained all this to you above, and yet here you double down on it. I just don’t understand it in any way. The only thing I’d say is to go back and read my posts in this thread thoroughly, with a particular eye to how I’m consistently very clearly talking about comparing different LeBron years to each other, and then also consider that that’s the explicit subject matter of this thread.

Dude, he and-1'd my comment that you're responding to right now. Why do you think? "Imagining things" would be nice if post history and if an email thread didn't exist.

I'm out. No reasoning with integrity here, clearly.

[lessthanjake]

Waste of time? Seriously? He's responding to what you said and did you the decency of rebutting what you had to say AFTER you had already rebutted what he had said, but when you got pinned in a corner on a number of those things, you disappeared on all of those.

I don't expect anything less though, to be honest, as sad as that is. It's the same thing, every time, rinse and repeat.

Humility would look something like, "Oh great points, didn't consider that, you're right." Or perhaps, "Hm, I'm not sure, I need to process this but you make good arguments" instead of sweeping that which you have no rebuttals for under the rug.

This is honestly a completely insane post. I responded to Colbinii as relevant to *what I had actually said*, which very explicitly related specifically to comparisons between different years of LeBron’s career. And, need I remind you, what I had actually said was stuff that was actually on topic for the thread, since this is a thread about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to anyone else. I was not “pinned in a corner” about something that I was not talking about and that is not the subject of this thread. Nor am I in any way obligated to respond to things that go to an assertion Colbinii made that I’d not been responding to (and that, again, did not directly relate to the subject matter of this thread). And I am *certainly* not obligated to spend my time going line by line to do so. You are basically imagining that I said things I didn’t say, and then getting upset at me that I didn’t reply to someone’s post as if I’d previously made the arguments you’ve imagined that I made. It’s basically just getting mad at someone for not addressing a straw man! I responded to Colbinii’s post to the extent it was relevant to what I’d actually been saying (and to the actual subject of the thread). To forcefully suggest I have an obligation to do more than that is just weird. What makes your post even more perplexing is that I just explained all this to you above, and yet here you double down on it. I just don’t understand it in any way. The only thing I’d say is to go back and read my posts in this thread thoroughly, with a particular eye to how I’m consistently very clearly talking about comparing different LeBron years to each other, and then also consider that that’s the explicit subject matter of this thread.

Dude, he and-1'd my comment that you're responding to right now. Why do you think? "Imagining things" would be nice if post history and if an email thread didn't exist.

I'm out. No reasoning with integrity here, clearly.

Lol, this is just crazy. As I said, go back and read my posts in this thread thoroughly, with a particular eye to how I’m consistently very clearly talking about comparing different LeBron years to each other (which AGAIN, is the subject of this thread). Colbinii and-1’ing your post is literally meaningless—you’re white knighting for him and glazing his posts! Of course he’d throw you an and-1—I’d probably do it too if I were him! It doesn’t mean you’re not demanding I respond to a straw man, especially when it was Colbinii that was talking past me in the first place!

Since you mention “post history,” let me give you a bit of a hand here and quote portions of each of my posts in my exchange with Colbinii:

Post #1:

- “I’m also not quite sure how this line of thinking maps on to ranking LeBron’s years against each other.”

Post #2

- “2015 was a really significant outlier for LeBron in terms of rTS% in the playoffs. Prior to the 2015 playoffs, LeBron had gone six years without having a negative rTS% series, and then had a negative rTS% in every single series in 2015, followed by only having one negative rTS% series in the next five years.”

- “I think it’s fine to point to playoff rORTG as a counterpoint to that. The 2015 Cavs did have a higher playoff rORTG that year than LeBron’s teams had in the other years in consideration here (despite injuries to major players during the playoffs).”

- “These sorts of things happen in small samples, and they really don’t have to mean that the team’s best player was playing better than other years despite the individual stats indicating that he really wasn’t.”

Post #3

- “And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you think his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency.”

- “I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?”

Post #4

- “Umm…I’m talking about the actual topic of this thread…Which probably should’ve been pretty obvious when the first sentence of the paragraph in my post that you initially responded to said: “I’m also not quite sure how this line of thinking maps on to ranking LeBron’s years against each other.”

In every single post I made in my exchange with Colbinii, it is very clear that I am talking about comparing LeBron’s 2015 to other LeBron years. Of course, even without such consistently clear statements it should also be *assumed* that that’s what I’m talking about, since that is the subject matter of the thread!

Colbinii clarified that the points he was responding with related to his assertion that “2015/2011/2008 are all ATG peaks and listed the levels of players it is similar to.” That’s all well and good, but it’s not the subject matter of the thread and clearly is not what my posts were directed towards. And now you show up aggressively telling me that it’s outrageous I didn’t respond to his points that were directed towards that off-topic assertion! And then you continue to aggressively respond after I point all this out, even interspersing little personal digs. Just very weird stuff, honestly. I guess maybe my posting in general in these forums has triggered you in some way to make you go off like this, but it’s odd, especially when I can barely recall us ever having direct interactions.

[Throwawaytheone]

.

[homecourtloss]

Yes, scoring efficiency isn’t the only thing LeBron does on offense. But it’s undeniably a big deal. And this thread is about comparing LeBron to LeBron, not comparing LeBron to some hypothetical average player. So it’s not enough to just say that you think his creation outweighs the scoring inefficiency. You’d have to posit that his creation in 2015 was abnormally better than his own creation in other years, such that it makes up for him having been substantially worse than normal in scoring efficiency. And do you think that’s the case? I suppose you could try to make that case, by pointing out that the 2015 Cavs’ playoff rORTG was better than LeBron’s team’s playoff rORTG in 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2011. But do you genuinely think that that’s because LeBron was a substantially better creator in 2015 than in those other years, or do you think it’s perhaps just caused by the fairly unremarkable fact that you can get positive variance from a supporting cast in small samples?

I'll say what Colbinii hasn't yet said because it's blatantly obvious and tbh, a bit frustrating:

You completely ignored everything else he said and honed in on the very last point he made. I think you ought to acknowledge the other stuff too instead of what seems to be abandoning ship when there is no rebuttal.

Bad ts and still carried his team more than peak Jordan, Jokic, or Curry ever did.

I can understand the frustration.

True and not enough gets said about it. Too bad the bad luck in 2015 or many things would be looked at differently by the casuals.