VOTE: WNBA 2024 All-Stars. Ends June 29th

[Ice Man]

We all know the W is ruled by bigs, but man does this year is on another level in terms of all-stars. If voting was completely positionless, I think at best I'd get 2-3 guards in there (Sabrina Ionscu, Kahleah Copper, and then Arike if you don't hold Dallas record against her). Of the WNBA's top 10 players, I think 8 of them are bigs. That's with Satou Sabally out injured, and Britney Griner only recently coming back, so I'm not counting either.

I've been trying to figure out why that is. Some of the issue seems to be a shortage of smalls who can cause havoc in the midrange -- floaters, pullup jumpers, drawing fouls. I think that some also is that the ball doesn't move as quickly as in the NBA, meaning that less space is created for shooters. It's more of a congested, contested battle, which rewards size & strength.

But those are only preliminary thoughts, based on limited observation.

[cupcakesnake]

We all know the W is ruled by bigs, but man does this year is on another level in terms of all-stars. If voting was completely positionless, I think at best I'd get 2-3 guards in there (Sabrina Ionscu, Kahleah Copper, and then Arike if you don't hold Dallas record against her). Of the WNBA's top 10 players, I think 8 of them are bigs. That's with Satou Sabally out injured, and Britney Griner only recently coming back, so I'm not counting either.

I've been trying to figure out why that is. Some of the issue seems to be a shortage of smalls who can cause havoc in the midrange -- floaters, pullup jumpers, drawing fouls. I think that some also is that the ball doesn't move as quickly as in the NBA, meaning that less space is created for shooters. It's more of a congested, contested battle, which rewards size & strength.

But those are only preliminary thoughts, based on limited observation.

I think it's about vertical separation. In women's basketball, separation is harder to gain (no one is jumping over people) so height is the best source of gaining vertical separation, and more difficult to deal with defensively. It's way harder to beat height/length in this style of basketball.

[jc23]

We all know the W is ruled by bigs, but man does this year is on another level in terms of all-stars. If voting was completely positionless, I think at best I'd get 2-3 guards in there (Sabrina Ionscu, Kahleah Copper, and then Arike if you don't hold Dallas record against her). Of the WNBA's top 10 players, I think 8 of them are bigs. That's with Satou Sabally out injured, and Britney Griner only recently coming back, so I'm not counting either.

I've been trying to figure out why that is. Some of the issue seems to be a shortage of smalls who can cause havoc in the midrange -- floaters, pullup jumpers, drawing fouls. I think that some also is that the ball doesn't move as quickly as in the NBA, meaning that less space is created for shooters. It's more of a congested, contested battle, which rewards size & strength.

But those are only preliminary thoughts, based on limited observation.

I think it's about vertical separation. In women's basketball, separation is harder to gain (no one is jumping over people) so height is the best source of gaining vertical separation, and more difficult to deal with defensively. It's way harder to beat height/length in this style of basketball.

the congestion of the game is something that needs to be remedied. Either by rule changes or how the game is called.

[MrDollarBills]

I've been trying to figure out why that is. Some of the issue seems to be a shortage of smalls who can cause havoc in the midrange -- floaters, pullup jumpers, drawing fouls. I think that some also is that the ball doesn't move as quickly as in the NBA, meaning that less space is created for shooters. It's more of a congested, contested battle, which rewards size & strength.

But those are only preliminary thoughts, based on limited observation.

I think it's about vertical separation. In women's basketball, separation is harder to gain (no one is jumping over people) so height is the best source of gaining vertical separation, and more difficult to deal with defensively. It's way harder to beat height/length in this style of basketball.

the congestion of the game is something that needs to be remedied. Either by rule changes or how the game is called.

I disagree. I see zero reason to invoke rule changes to favor guards when there are guards in the league that cook people on a nightly basis. Players like Sabrina, Gray, Plum, Loyd, etc don't need special treatment to bust someone's ass.

The last thing the league needs is to penalize defenders. If you're highly skilled as a guard, you will drop buckets. If not, well your catch and shoot game better be on point because the painted area is not for the weak lol

[Ice Man]

I think it's about vertical separation. In women's basketball, separation is harder to gain (no one is jumping over people) so height is the best source of gaining vertical separation, and more difficult to deal with defensively. It's way harder to beat height/length in this style of basketball.

That's part of it, but not all. Take last night. The Fever runs a high P&R, Clark gets blitzed and drops the ball to Aliyah Boston. That leaves two defenders on one player who doesn't have the ball (Clark), three defenders on three other Fever players, and Boston utterly alone at the free throw line. If you can shoot, you have to take that shot. It's what the defense gave you. Boston can shoot pretty well, as she's a 70% FT shooter. But she didn't. Instead, she either drove into traffic underneath the basket (without success), forced a pass into traffic underneath the basket (ditto), or looked around and reset the play on the perimeter. Opportunity lost.

You won't see that in the NBA. And not because of a difference in athleticism.

[jc23]

I think it's about vertical separation. In women's basketball, separation is harder to gain (no one is jumping over people) so height is the best source of gaining vertical separation, and more difficult to deal with defensively. It's way harder to beat height/length in this style of basketball.

the congestion of the game is something that needs to be remedied. Either by rule changes or how the game is called.

I disagree. I see zero reason to invoke rule changes to favor guards when there are guards in the league that cook people on a nightly basis. Players like Sabrina, Gray, Plum, Loyd, etc don't need special treatment to bust someone's ass.

The last thing the league needs is to penalize defenders. If you're highly skilled as a guard, you will drop buckets. If not, well your catch and shoot game better be on point because the painted area is not for the weak lol

You always look for ways to make the game more exciting and fan friendly. Whatever the tweaks are there are definitely tweaks to be made.

[cupcakesnake]

the congestion of the game is something that needs to be remedied. Either by rule changes or how the game is called.

I disagree. I see zero reason to invoke rule changes to favor guards when there are guards in the league that cook people on a nightly basis. Players like Sabrina, Gray, Plum, Loyd, etc don't need special treatment to bust someone's ass.

The last thing the league needs is to penalize defenders. If you're highly skilled as a guard, you will drop buckets. If not, well your catch and shoot game better be on point because the painted area is not for the weak lol

You always look for ways to make the game more exciting and fan friendly. Whatever the tweaks are there are definitely tweaks to be made.

I don't know. I wouldn't root for these changes.
I like that it's a bit of a grudge match played at a high skill level. I like that the defense has the advantage. I like that players have to be insanely tough.

NBA made the game more "fan friendly" and so many fans complain about it constantly, pine for the 90s/2000s, and call all the players today "soft". I always feel like: ok watch the WNBA then. It's a bloodbath.

[jc23]

I disagree. I see zero reason to invoke rule changes to favor guards when there are guards in the league that cook people on a nightly basis. Players like Sabrina, Gray, Plum, Loyd, etc don't need special treatment to bust someone's ass.

The last thing the league needs is to penalize defenders. If you're highly skilled as a guard, you will drop buckets. If not, well your catch and shoot game better be on point because the painted area is not for the weak lol

You always look for ways to make the game more exciting and fan friendly. Whatever the tweaks are there are definitely tweaks to be made.

I don't know. I wouldn't root for these changes.
I like that it's a bit of a grudge match played at a high skill level. I like that the defense has the advantage. I like that players have to be insanely tough.

NBA made the game more "fan friendly" and so many fans complain about it constantly, pine for the 90s/2000s, and call all the players today "soft". I always feel like: ok watch the WNBA then. It's a bloodbath.

Hey, I liked baggy pants back in the day, but i made tweaks for the betterment of my social life (refused to go skinny jeans tho).

[cupcakesnake]

You always look for ways to make the game more exciting and fan friendly. Whatever the tweaks are there are definitely tweaks to be made.

I don't know. I wouldn't root for these changes.
I like that it's a bit of a grudge match played at a high skill level. I like that the defense has the advantage. I like that players have to be insanely tough.

NBA made the game more "fan friendly" and so many fans complain about it constantly, pine for the 90s/2000s, and call all the players today "soft". I always feel like: ok watch the WNBA then. It's a bloodbath.

Hey, I liked baggy pants back in the day, but i made tweaks for the betterment of my social life (refused to go skinny jeans tho).

If you refused to go skinny jeans there's no way you can possible defend this position

For serious though: I'll probably/hopefully be fine and dandy with whatever way the W evolves over the next decade and beyond. I do not think it needs to evolve in the same direction as the men's league, and I don't think it's a reasonable prediction that it will. It's a slightly different sport played by different types of athletes. It's not impossible that it evolves in the same direction as the NBA, but it's far from a guarantee that it will.

[cdubbz]

Looks nice!

Read on Twitter

[MrDollarBills]

Looks nice!

Read on Twitter

Fire uniforms!!@

[hermes]

when is the team announced?

[hermes]

tonight i guess

Read on Twitter

[Wingy]

Had the corny thought come to my head some time ago that after all the controversy (stirred up by ESPNs of the world, plus a lot of turd for brains), and competitive rivalry, thought it would be really cool for it to come full circle and have Angel and Caitlin someday wind up on the same team and rule the league.

While not quite that, we do get to see them as teammates sooner than perhaps anyone would have originally thought.

I love this Olympians vs everyone else format btw.

Read on Twitter

[bisme37]

New all star format is pretty dope. Team USA vs WNBA Allstars. Cool that Clark and Reese are on the same team. Looking forward to it!

[MrDollarBills]

Had the corny thought come to my head some time ago that after all the controversy (stirred up by ESPNs of the world, plus a lot of turd for brains), and competitive rivalry, thought it would be really cool for it to come full circle and have Angel and Caitlin someday wind up on the same team and rule the league.

While not quite that, we do get to see them as teammates sooner than perhaps anyone would have originally thought.

I love this Olympians vs everyone else format btw.

Read on Twitter

I would love to see the two of them actually having fun out there playing with and for each other. It would go a long way for fans to see these two stars competing together at a high level.

Both players have been a pleasure to watch this season and it's only Year 1 of many

[Ice Man]

The two players in the Top 10 for PER who didn't make the team are Ezi Magbegor and Chennedy Carter. I don't know enough about Ezi to comment, except that given Seattle's excellent record a third All Star seems appropriate. And Carter definitely belongs on the squad, in Kelsey Mitchell's spot. Does the same thing as Mitchell, only better. I truly cannot understand her omission.

[MrDollarBills]

The two players in the Top 10 for PER who didn't make the team are Ezi Magbegor and Chennedy Carter. I don't know enough about Ezi to comment, except that given Seattle's excellent record a third All Star seems appropriate. And Carter definitely belongs on the squad, in Kelsey Mitchell's spot. Does the same thing as Mitchell, only better. I truly cannot understand her omission.

That's on the coaches if I recall correctly

I would not have left Chennedy off the roster this year in particular she's one of the best guards in the league

[wojoaderge]

I don't know. I wouldn't root for these changes.
I like that it's a bit of a grudge match played at a high skill level. I like that the defense has the advantage. I like that players have to be insanely tough.

NBA made the game more "fan friendly" and so many fans complain about it constantly, pine for the 90s/2000s, and call all the players today "soft". I always feel like: ok watch the WNBA then. It's a bloodbath.

Hey, I liked baggy pants back in the day, but i made tweaks for the betterment of my social life (refused to go skinny jeans tho).

If you refused to go skinny jeans there's no way you can possible defend this position

For serious though: I'll probably/hopefully be fine and dandy with whatever way the W evolves over the next decade and beyond. I do not think it needs to evolve in the same direction as the men's league, and I don't think it's a reasonable prediction that it will. It's a slightly different sport played by different types of athletes. It's not impossible that it evolves in the same direction as the NBA, but it's far from a guarantee that it will.

If the WNBA becomes like the modern NBA, i'm outta here!

[Doctor MJ]

Had the corny thought come to my head some time ago that after all the controversy (stirred up by ESPNs of the world, plus a lot of turd for brains), and competitive rivalry, thought it would be really cool for it to come full circle and have Angel and Caitlin someday wind up on the same team and rule the league.

While not quite that, we do get to see them as teammates sooner than perhaps anyone would have originally thought.

I love this Olympians vs everyone else format btw.

Read on Twitter

I'm with you in shipping Caitlin & Angel. I've found Angel to be pretty annoying so far, but y'know, at one time that's how I felt about Rodman, and now I'm so glad Rodman existed. Reese has some Rodman in her.

Okay so, some analysis:

Representation by team, ordered by standings:

Liberty 3 (Sabrina, Stewie, Jonquel)
Sun 3 (AT, Bonner, Brionna)
Lynx 2 (Collier, McBride)
Storm 2 (Loyd, Nneka)
Aces 4 (Chelsea, Plum, A'ja, Young)
Mercury 3 (Copper, Griner, Taurasi)
Dream 1 (Allisha)
Sky 1 (Reese)
Fever 3 (Boston, Clark, Mitchell)
Mystics 0 (none)
Sparks 1 (Hamby)
Wings 1 (Arike)

Observations:

* As you'd expect, better teams tend to get more all-star representatives.
* Interesting to me that not all teams were represented given that in a league this small (12 teams), it's just really easy to find one of 24 spots to give to the Mystics.
* Clearest trend diverging from team record is Olympic involvement. All 4 of the Aces and all 3 of the Mercury are on the WNT. So that likely puts a squeeze on what some of the better teams might have had if it were only this WNBA season that was getting factored in.
* We know that actual voting is what determines the first pass of this stuff. From that the following players were given spots:

Boston (FC)
Clark (G)
Hamby (FC)
Arike (G)

From there coaches filled out their roster with:

Bonner (Con) (FC)
Allisha (Atl) (G)
Brionna (Con) (FC)
Jonquel (NY) (FC)
McBride (Min) (G)
Mitchell (Ind) (G)
Nneka (Sea) (FC)
Reese (Chi) (FC)

Position is highlighted because it's a critical part of the official process - and note that with it being 7 FC & 5 G, this means we ought to be able to replace a guard with a frontcourt or vice versa.
Team highlighted because it's typically a critical part of the unofficial process.

The immediate thing I'd look at here then is the fact that they did choose more than one from a single team in one case, from one elite team in the Sun, they did not do so for the other two elite teams (NY & Lynx), despite the fact that this means awarding the inferior Fever with more all-stars than the Lynx and as many as the Liberty.

So, this points to a question in particular if there's anyone on the Lynx or Liberty than deserved a spot more than Mitchell. So, candidates:

From Minnesota: Bridget Carleton (3rd in MPG) & Alanna Smith (3rd in MP) would seem the top contenders. It's definitely a major drop off in primacy, minutes & stars, between the two already-all-stars (Collier & McBride). Here we're talking about players who are arguably most noteworthy as being the 3 point spacers of Cheryl Reeve's new approach that seems to be working so well, but they don't have the kind of prominence on their team as Mitchell does on the Fever right now which is operating as more of a Big 3.

From New York: Betnijah Laney is the clear cut candidate here (though godspeed Sloot!). The Liberty play a scheme where 4 players play big minutes, and Laney is one of them playing 32.8 MPG which is more than Mitchell's 30.1 MPG.

Mitchell is more of a scorer of course, leading her team - which includes Clark - with 16.6 PPG, so that gives an immediate thought to why maybe she came to mind to voters as a bigger deal than Laney.

Now, as I alluded to in the Awards thread: Laney's +/- numbers are absolutely huge. She leads the entire league in raw +/-, well ahead of even her teammates. Now this is a simplistic metric of course and I don't want to talk as if the number says a clear interpretation for how good a player is, but I like it as a starting point - just know that I know it's not the end all, be all, and there's a lot of noise in the signal - So here are top 10 players in the league right now by it:

1. Laney (NY) +224
2. Sabrina (NY) +198
3. Stewie (NY) +197
4. Jonquel (NY) +191
5. Brionna (Con) +170
6. Collier (Min) +157
7. Loyd (Sea) +147
(tie) McBride (Min) +147
9. Nneka (Sea) +127
10. Bonner (Con) +126

I'd note that players 2-10 are all named all-star.

I'll also note that Smith ranks 13th and Carleton ranks 16th by this metric.

What about Mitchell? Well, for that we reverse the sort.

Here are the worst raw +/- numbers of players this year:

1. Mitchell (Ind) -145
2. Smith (Ind) -136
3. Arike (Dal) -127
4. Hamby (LA) -126
5. Clark (Ind) -123

And for completeness:
7. Boston (Ind) -117

Yeah so:

* Yup, Mitchell has the worst in the entire league this year
* Though note that this is a stat where the worst players in the league don't play enough to rack up totals to compete for this.
* That said, having 3-5 & 7 on this list be named all-star is pretty crazy.
* Astute readers might also note that 3-5 & & were voter choices rather than coach choices.

Big question: What does it mean when all-star players are producing such awful raw +/- in this league? (We don't see this in the NBA, by contrast.)

Possible hot take: Mitchell scoring more than Clark might not be an accomplishment by Mitchell so much as some deference by Clark toward a teammate who was the lead scorer (and all-star) on the team last year. Would be one thing if it were working, but Mitchell's got an awful On-Off compared to Clark & Boston.

It's thus possible that Mitchell's getting rewarded by coaches based on a variety of reputation-based things that are combining to make her look star-like, when really she might need to be traded so the Faver can focus on its young core of Clark & Boston who are each 6 years younger than Mitchell.

And yeah: I'll say Laney's my pick for snub here. I'd give her Mitchell's spot.