Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[Rafael122]

You guys are making it seem like we traded away prime Pippen.

[DCZards]

Suppose that instead of R2 picks down the line we'd gotten Portland's 34 & 40 this year.

At 34, we could have taken one of Furphy, Kolek, or Klintman.
Then, at 40, we could have taken one of Ighodaro, Bona, Djurisic, or KJ Simpson.

It's worth noting, by the way, that Portland did wind up trading both those picks; they brought Kolek & Ighodaro.

If we'd gotten 34 & 40 this year, I would feel quite differently about our having traded Deni.

I feel more or less the same way about our having traded the #52 pick to move up from 26 to 24. With that pick we could have added Ulrich Chomche, Cam Spencer, Kevin McCullar, or Hukporti.

With those 3 picks, I would feel like we'd gotten an incredible haul in this year's draft.

In fairness, I know little about George: perhaps he would have been gone at 26; perhaps he'll turn out a lot better than the guys who'd have been there for us at 26.

Let's say that at 26, we'd have missed out on Kyshaun George & taken Jonathan Mogbo.
At 34, let's say Tyler Kolek.
At 40 Adem Bono
At 52 Cam Spencer

Not a definitive statement nor a criticism -- just a reaction on my part.

Same reaction on both trades, I thought the idea was to take as-many swings as-possible, we instead placed ALL of our chips on George, not good GMing when you lose trades and wind up with fewer assets IMO, we left some good prospects on the table for other teams.

The “many swings as possible approach” is what some of us on this message board wanted. It isn’t necessarily the approach to rebuilding that the Zards FO prefers.

[closg00]

Clearly

[joshuacf]

Lazy ass, revisionist argument. Deni came onto a team until last year that was trying to win as many games as they could for a play-in spot. A young player coming into that environment with Beal, Westbrook, Porzingis, and Kuzma was never going to get the reps he needed to develop quickly. Bilal was fortunate enough where he was given almost thirty minutes a night in his rookie season while playing poorly most of them.

That's a great theory, except for the fact that Rui and Kispert came into the same situation, and both played significantly better to start their career than Deni did.

Rui was and still is a one trick pony that does nothing except score. He was never good with us, he had a decent playoff run with LA year one, that's it. He also is nearly 3 years older with only one more season than Deni.

Kispert also a one trick pony, granted he is a good -albeit streaky- three point shooter on volume. With that said, he's a sieve on defense, doesn't rebound, doesn't pass. Also nearly 2 years older than Deni.

Any more bad arguments? Keep 'em coming.

Yeah, because scoring and 3 point shooting aren't important. At least they had an NBA skill.

Deni was a complete zero on offense and did nothing of value to warrant being on the court for his first three years.

And Deni was 22 in his third NBA season, and was still awful. Kispert was 22 in his first NBA season and was way better than Deni was. So what was Deni's excuse then?

Keep the cope coming though.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

That's a great theory, except for the fact that Rui and Kispert came into the same situation, and both played significantly better to start their career than Deni did.

Rui was and still is a one trick pony that does nothing except score. He was never good with us, he had a decent playoff run with LA year one, that's it. He also is nearly 3 years older with only one more season than Deni.

Kispert also a one trick pony, granted he is a good -albeit streaky- three point shooter on volume. With that said, he's a sieve on defense, doesn't rebound, doesn't pass. Also nearly 2 years older than Deni.

Any more bad arguments? Keep 'em coming.

Yeah, because scoring and 3 point shooting aren't important. At least they had an NBA skill.

Deni was a complete zero on offense and did nothing of value to warrant being on the court for his first three years.

And Deni was 22 in his third NBA season, and was still awful. Kispert was 22 in his first NBA season and was way better than Deni was. So what was Deni's excuse then?

Keep the cope coming though.

"Keep the cope coming"? Sigh, both clueless and lacking an ounce of originality.

But as you have it, defense, availability, versality, size, rebounding, passing, and intangibles are in fact all important NBA skills and traits. Also when a player that has that profile and those abilities, it gives them more potential and a higher ceiling which is something an NBA team with a startling lack of talent should covet. Yes, Deni struggled to figure out his offense his first three season, I don't think anyone on this board would deny that, but that all changed last season. That was his main weakness and it became a decent strength with him shooting a 60 TS%. He was good at shooting the three, driving, finishing, getting to the line, in the open court, etc., pretty well rounded I'd say. Averaged what 19 and 8 that second half of the season, and crushed every other player who played meaningful minutes on this team in on-off because he can impact the game in more ways than just putting the ball in the hoop, which he did too.

Kispert is a decent player, not here to trash him but he has some flaws that are going to be hard to fix. You could play him off the floor in the playoffs if he is to ever get there because he is that bad on defense. Positionally at one point last season, he along with Kuzma and Poole were amongst the worst defensive players at each of their respective positions in the entire league according to defensive LEBRON. I didn't check out how the numbers finished, but I'd make a fair guess that he didn't move up much. Now even if you don't like that stat, there are other stats as well as the eye test that will tell you he's a really bad defender. With that said, Kispert is great a shooting volume threes and actually is really good at getting to the bucket, it's just that whatever points he gets you he gives up in spades. Watch the games, he's targeted all game long because of this.

As for Rui, it's pointless debating this. Look at the numbers other than scoring which up until last season he was subpar in terms of efficiency for the trait he supposedly is most "skilled at". So yeah, I wouldn't hinge Rui being better because a skill he's been mediocre at. Availability is also a big factor here, but who cares about actual playing in games I guess.

[TheBlackCzar]

Suppose that instead of R2 picks down the line we'd gotten Portland's 34 & 40 this year.

At 34, we could have taken one of Furphy, Kolek, or Klintman.
Then, at 40, we could have taken one of Ighodaro, Bona, Djurisic, or KJ Simpson.

It's worth noting, by the way, that Portland did wind up trading both those picks; they brought Kolek & Ighodaro.

If we'd gotten 34 & 40 this year, I would feel quite differently about our having traded Deni.

I feel more or less the same way about our having traded the #52 pick to move up from 26 to 24. With that pick we could have added Ulrich Chomche, Cam Spencer, Kevin McCullar, or Hukporti.

With those 3 picks, I would feel like we'd gotten an incredible haul in this year's draft.

In fairness, I know little about George: perhaps he would have been gone at 26; perhaps he'll turn out a lot better than the guys who'd have been there for us at 26.

Let's say that at 26, we'd have missed out on Kyshaun George & taken Jonathan Mogbo.
At 34, let's say Tyler Kolek.
At 40 Adem Bono
At 52 Cam Spencer

Not a definitive statement nor a criticism -- just a reaction on my part.

Same reaction on both trades, I thought the idea was to take as-many swings as-possible, we instead placed ALL of our chips on George, not good GMing when you lose trades and wind up with fewer assets IMO, we left some good prospects on the table for other teams.

this draft wasnt that strong according to pundits so why the complaints we didnt use more than 3 picks in this draft????

[MDStar]

3 rookies are more than enough for a roster of 15. Add to them the 2 from last year. That’s a total of 1/3 of the roster that needs playing time. Not sure why there’s a sentiment that we need more than that. It’s a process that takes evaluation. See what we have in them and then try again next year with the 1st and 2 2nds we have.

[FAH1223]

Wizards got more for Deni Avdija than Atlanta did for Dejounte Murray.

[spaceman_E]

We've entered another era where a Wizards front office places a priority on making friends, being liked and doing favors for other organizations. Interesting over the years that the Wizards have seemingly given out plenty of favors and yet somehow never receive any.

Someone offered us multiple 1sts for Davis Bertans once

[payitforward]

...Deni was a complete zero on offense and did nothing of value to warrant being on the court for his first three years.

And Deni was 22 in his third NBA season, and was still awful. Kispert was 22 in his first NBA season and was way better than Deni was. ....

Do I understand you rightly? You're saying that in his 3d season (i.e. last season), Deni "was awful," "did nothing of value to warrant being on the court," & "Kispert... was way better"?

Is that what you mean to be saying? I hope not, because if it is, it will be hard to understand the way you come to such a conclusion and, more generally, how you are determining excellence in basketball.

Why? Because, overall, Deni was far better than Kispert last season. Waaay better -- it's not even close.

Here's what makes that true (&, I think, obvious to most people).

Everything you do on a basketball court is about 1 of 2 things -- 1) gaining (& controlling) possession of the ball without the other team scoring & 2) scoring the ball.

Last year, Corey Kispert scored 1.15 more points per 40 minutes using only about .9 more possessions. Which gave him a higher ts% -- 62% vs. Deni's 59.7%. Both good, btw, but Corey's better.

OTOH, once you add in steals, turnovers, & offensive boards for both guys, Deni's overall substantially better numbers more than equal the comparison. Plus, Deni got way more assists -- almost twice as many per 40 minutes. In short, both guys were actually quite effective on offense. & there was little to choose between them. But, if you had to choose, Deni was the better player on offense.

That's it for being close between the two guys.

Deni got more than twice as many defensive rebounds as Corey.
He blocked twice as many shots as Corey.
& of course, he was a far far better man defender & team defender.

There was, overall, no real comparison between the two guys. Deni was terrific. Corey, overall, was below average. It's not really close. Deni is by far the better player.

Corey wasn't awful, mind you, he just hasn't been particularly good yet. While Deni, last year, was just that -- really good.

[9 and 20]

I remember not so long ago when someone offered two first for Kuz. We ended up trading Gaff and Deni instead. Make it make sense, Dawkins!!

[payitforward]

I remember not so long ago when someone offered two first for Kuz. We ended up trading Gaff and Deni instead. Make it make sense, Dawkins!!

Nope.
Dallas offered one first for Kuz. If it'd been two, we'd have taken the deal.

[dcPress]

Eh, best of luck to Deni in Portland. We probably could have gotten more for him next year assuming he continues to improve. OTOH our window starts next year, assuming we get lucky in the draft, so it makes sense to get started early on the support cast. Doesn’t seem like Deni is gonna be a top 3 guy on a title team so it makes sense to sell when his valuation is at a career high.

[gambitx777]

I would like to bite that we still got more for deni than Atlanta sis for Murray.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

[joshuacf]

...Deni was a complete zero on offense and did nothing of value to warrant being on the court for his first three years.

And Deni was 22 in his third NBA season, and was still awful. Kispert was 22 in his first NBA season and was way better than Deni was. ....

Do I understand you rightly? You're saying that in his 3d season (i.e. last season), Deni "was awful," "did nothing of value to warrant being on the court," & "Kispert... was way better"?

Is that what you mean to be saying? I hope not, because if it is, it will be hard to understand the way you come to such a conclusion and, more generally, how you are determining excellence in basketball.

What are you on about? Deni was in his fourth NBA season last season. Deni's THIRD season was 2022-2023.

[joshuacf]

But as you have it, defense, availability, versality, size, rebounding, passing, and intangibles are in fact all important NBA skills and traits.

Availabilty and intangibles are what you're going with? How was Deni any more available or more having in intangibles than Kispert?

Kispert is a decent player, not here to trash him but he has some flaws that are going to be hard to fix. You could play him off the floor in the playoffs if he is to ever get there because he is that bad on defense. Positionally at one point last season, he along with Kuzma and Poole were amongst the worst defensive players at each of their respective positions in the entire league according to defensive LEBRON. I didn't check out how the numbers finished, but I'd make a fair guess that he didn't move up much. Now even if you don't like that stat, there are other stats as well as the eye test that will tell you he's a really bad defender. With that said, Kispert is great a shooting volume threes and actually is really good at getting to the bucket, it's just that whatever points he gets you he gives up in spades. Watch the games, he's targeted all game long because of this.

We aren't debating who is a better player in 2024. You made excuses for Deni being a poor player when he first came into the league. "It's tough being a rookie coming into a team that's trying to win" as if there aren't multiple rookies each season that do just that.

Then I made the point that both Kispert and Rui came into the same situation as rookies and performed much better than Deni did. Then you pivoted again and made excuses for Deni because he was younger than those two. Then I pointed out that Kispert as a 22 year old rookie was as competent as a 22 year old Deni in his third season. Now you're once again reframing the argument to make this a discussion about their current abilities when it never was.

But hey, Deni came into the league as a 20 year old rookie on a team that was trying to win! There's no way anybody could be successful in such a situation, right?

Insert Scottie Barnes, Chet, Jalen Williams, (EDIT: Dereck Lively, who was younger than Deni was as a rookie), and many more.

Fact is that Deni floundered for his first three years of his career. Nobody to blame but himself, despite whatever excuses you want to make for him. He has now improved into a solid NBA player. But he's nowhere near a star. Success in the NBA is built on superstars, not Deni Avdija's.

[dckingsfan]

The debate shouldn't be about Deni's progress, rather it should be about where he is, where he is going, his contract and did we get the appropriate value in the trade. The rest is obfuscation...

Deni's progress is on Deni and he had a terrific jump last season. It looks like he will continue to improve into a solid starter. His contract is terrific. We didn't get near to the appropriate value for him.

[MDStar]

The debate shouldn't be about Deni's progress, rather it should be about where he is, where he is going, his contract and did we get the appropriate value in the trade. The rest is obfuscation...

Deni's progress is on Deni and he had a terrific jump last season. It looks like he will continue to improve into a solid starter. His contract is terrific. We didn't get near to the appropriate value for him.

What is appropriate value then? If Two firsts, Two Seconds and an $22.5M expiring contract is not, I’m wondering if you guys are being realistic.

I get that you don’t like the 29 pick but life is linear and we’ll be happy we have it when that time comes around. No different than say the Paul George trade from OKC to LA. In that deal, which happened in 2019, OKC got a haul including a 2024 pick and a 2026 pick. 5 and 7 years out respectively but very relevant now.

If at the beginning of last season, someone would have offered you 3 1sts, 2 2nds, Malcolm Brogdon and Richaun Holmes for Deni and Gafford, every single person on this board would have jumped on that deal. But now this board is seemingly completely overvaluing Deni (who I love) due to his play in Feb, Mar, Apr, where he played really well, for a team that had no other good options and teams weren’t really taking us seriously? I was there and watched every game. In the 3.5 years prior, no one was checking for Deni and his contract extension reflects that value.

There a strong chance that the Wizards brass figured this might be his peak value and cashed in. I for one, ain’t really mad at it.

[closg00]

3 rookies are more than enough for a roster of 15. Add to them the 2 from last year. That’s a total of 1/3 of the roster that needs playing time. Not sure why there’s a sentiment that we need more than that. It’s a process that takes evaluation. See what we have in them and then try again next year with the 1st and 2 2nds we have.

The Knicks drafted 4 players, your odds of winning the lottery are greater if buy more tickets. I would have preferred to say additionally draft Cam Christie or Antonio Reeves for example, bring them to camp and Summer League, and evaluate them, perhaps you like one enough to waive Davis, instead we were scrambling for the rest of the draft leftovers for potential two-way and G-League players, I prefer the former to the latter. Anyway, what’s done is done, looking forward to Summer League.

[Pistol King]

There a strong chance that the Wizards brass figured this might be his peak value and cashed in. I for one, ain’t really mad at it.

How could they know though? I really wish some journalist could sit with Dawkins and get a proper honest analyzing from him about this decision.

What were his calculations, how did he envision Deni's potential and why he thought he's not worth being invested, at 23 years old, with his player profile, as a building block.

Even if I'm trying hard to convince myself he's "peaked", since Feb his improvement was so consistent, there is really no reason to believe he's already entering his peak at just 23 years old.

In fact it felt the only thing hindered him last season for taking this leap right from the start of the season and not only from Feb was the hierarchy on the team. No matter how much he outplayed Kuzma and Poole, or at least has played at the same level, they were prioritized much more in the hierarchy.

Nevertheless, what has done cannot be undone.