2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

Well, my first thought is that I don't think it was a fluke that the Nuggets eliminated them in '19-20. Style makes fight as always, but most of the teams I think would be at the top of this list are teams that were kept from titles by champs.

I think the Harden-Paul Rockets have a strong case for the top spot.
The Nash-Marion-Amar'e Suns as well.

[AEnigma]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

As one-offs, there are quite a few I would take over their 2020/21 teams — many of them winning titles in adjacent years (e.g. the 2015/17 Cavaliers, the 2016/19 Warriors, the 2013/16/17 Spurs, the 2005 Pistons, etc.). Even if we exclude those types of teams, I would still take the 2018 Rockets, the 2012-16 Thunder, the 2005-07 Suns…

Off talent, probably top five, but factoring what we all knew about their injury history, maybe more like top ten. 2021 could have been a title year… but losing out because the team could not win ten playoff games without Kawhi stings less than misses (…) like the 2018 Rockets or 2007 Suns. 2020 was a clearer disappointment in that they lost despite good health, but I would not have taken them over the Lakers anyway, and I am rarely going to be sympathetic to a 3-1 comeback allowed against an inferior opponent.

[AEnigma]

It does seem pretty unusual that the front office has essentially surrounded their top 4 with the rotation of a tanking team. Maybe its just the new reality or is Denver's front office just unusually bad at finding good depth? I would also say that its now more important than ever to trade your overpaid players when the market still values their contracts highly

I am not even sure I would call them bad drafters, because I think no one should expect to regularly find strong contributors outside of the lottery. However, the Nuggets seem like they expect to do exactly that. Either that or they have assessed the state of the league and decided there is no reasonable move that could lead them to a serious title chance in the next year or two, so they feel better off holding firm for the “right” moment. And I guess they can “rationally” do that because Jokic is not the type of star who pressures his front office after one or two lacklustre off-seasons.

[sp6r=underrated]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

They played at a contending level for 2 years.

Relative to era out of the clubs I remember I rank them below
Mid 90s Sonics/Jazz
00 Suns
10s Rockets/Thunder

Probably similar to
10s Clippers (CP3 era)
00s Kings
90s Knicks
90s Suns

I'll probably downgrade this club long-term because the only way they were getting Kawhi was the Paul George trade which was a huge mistake in retrospect and shortened their window alot.

[Colbinii]

Maybe its just the new reality or is Denver's front office just unusually bad at finding good depth? I would also say that its now more important than ever to trade your overpaid players when the market still values their contracts highly

Are they? What are your expectations for Depth in the Mid-late 20s in a draft?

Most players drafted beyond the lottery don't ever play meaningful minutes in the NBA [Aren't 1500-2000 Minute-per-season types and aren't in playoff rotations].

[Special_Puppy]

Maybe its just the new reality or is Denver's front office just unusually bad at finding good depth? I would also say that its now more important than ever to trade your overpaid players when the market still values their contracts highly

Are they? What are your expectations for Depth in the Mid-late 20s in a draft?

Most players drafted beyond the lottery don't ever play meaningful minutes in the NBA [Aren't 1500-2000 Minute-per-season types and aren't in playoff rotations].

How many contenders have worse depth than Denver?

[Colbinii]

Maybe its just the new reality or is Denver's front office just unusually bad at finding good depth? I would also say that its now more important than ever to trade your overpaid players when the market still values their contracts highly

Are they? What are your expectations for Depth in the Mid-late 20s in a draft?

Most players drafted beyond the lottery don't ever play meaningful minutes in the NBA [Aren't 1500-2000 Minute-per-season types and aren't in playoff rotations].

How many contenders have worse depth than Denver?

Boston, 76ers, Milwaukee and Phoenix all had worse depth in 2023-2024.

[parsnips33]

I do think Klay may ultimately regret not staying in La Famiglia

Lakers/Lebron fans would have eaten him alive so glad he's not ending up there, but there's still potential for things to get ugly. Say what you will about the Warriors, but they seem especially willing to support/consider the dynasty members in a way that I can't see other teams doing

[MartinToVaught]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

Not very high. They were only actually good for two years. The team's been a dysfunctional mess of injuries and 35-year-olds limping up and down the court at half speed since then.

[AEnigma]

Are they? What are your expectations for Depth in the Mid-late 20s in a draft?

Most players drafted beyond the lottery don't ever play meaningful minutes in the NBA [Aren't 1500-2000 Minute-per-season types and aren't in playoff rotations].

How many contenders have worse depth than Denver?

Boston, 76ers, Milwaukee and Phoenix all had worse depth in 2023-2024.

Disagree on the Celtics, although I could see it a little more when factoring Porzingis’s postseason health. 76ers seems debatable. Not really seeing the case for the Bucks.

The Suns were never a contender imo.

The Nuggets definitely had bad depth this year — I will reiterate, they lost their sixth and seventh men for nothing — but the gamble all season was that their starting lineup would be dominant enough for that not to matter (kind-of like what we saw with the Celtics), and they distinctly were not.

[jalengreen]

I do think Klay may ultimately regret not staying in La Famiglia

Lakers/Lebron fans would have eaten him alive so glad he's not ending up there, but there's still potential for things to get ugly. Say what you will about the Warriors, but they seem especially willing to support/consider the dynasty members in a way that I can't see other teams doing

Didn’t support/consider him enough to stop him from wanting out tho …

[jalengreen]

So yeah, Philly getting PG is huge. While of course injuries might end up keeping them from being their best self in a playoff in their window, this makes a scary team even scarier.

It also I think makes clear that NBA superstars aren't actually looking to stand in solidarity with each other. Just hilarious that Harden & George basically end up traded for each others with the Harden-side of the equation being about him being willing to take a smaller contract for the Clippers after trying to salt the Earth in Philly when being offered something similar there.

Harden will probably always see Morey as a betrayer, but seems pretty clear that the rest of the players will just see Harden as a has-been who can't acknowledge his own drop off and its consequences.

Why do you think the rest of the players view Harden like that? Because Daryl Morey decided to pay a 34-year-old Paul George a 4 yr, $213M deal, which he chose to accept? Seems like it'd be foolish for George to do anything but sign on the dotted line, and I don't think it says anything about Harden.

Ah, sounds like you've not been following all of the whispering that no star would sign with Philly after the treatment alleged by Harden.

It's of course possible for players to just not know anything about stuff that happened in the past...but George was literally Harden's teammate last season and talked on podcast as paying attention to how franchises treated their players. So yeah, George surely knew damn well what Harden said Morey did that led Harden to demand a trade away, and if it bothered him enough, he wouldn't have signed with Philly. He did sign with Philly, so here we are.

I feel like there's some logical step I'm missing here, because as it stands this makes absolutely no sense to me.

George obliging by Morey's desire to pay him $50M/yr until he's 39 years old is not him putting any particular trust in Morey. He's going to get his money. The contract was signed. Morey's trustworthiness is not at all relevant.

I'll go ahead and identify two potential theories one might've formed in response to the Harden-Morey drama to make sure that we're not conflating the two.

A. In solidarity with Harden, stars may not sign with Philadelphia while Morey is in charge.

B. In light of Harden's allegations, stars may not agree to / trust any promises made by Morey.

You can certainly say that A was disproven by the George signing. And if that's something that people were saying, then yeah fair to bring that up. The idea that Paul George would pass up on $212M simply to be in solidarity with Harden is foolish, of course. I'm sure even Harden would find that ridiculous.

But B? Not really relevant here, because as far as I know, George did not sign with Philadelphia because of any particular promises made by Morey.

So regarding the claim that "the rest of the players will just see Harden as a has-been who can't acknowledge his own drop off and its consequences" ... I don't see that from what we're observing here. We know that whatever Morey did to Harden didn't bother Paul George enough for him to turn down a 4 yr, $212M contract at the age of 34. I'm failing to see how you're able to go much further than that

[parsnips33]

I do think Klay may ultimately regret not staying in La Famiglia

Lakers/Lebron fans would have eaten him alive so glad he's not ending up there, but there's still potential for things to get ugly. Say what you will about the Warriors, but they seem especially willing to support/consider the dynasty members in a way that I can't see other teams doing

Didn’t support/consider him enough to stop him from wanting out tho …

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

[sp6r=underrated]

I do think Klay may ultimately regret not staying in La Famiglia

Lakers/Lebron fans would have eaten him alive so glad he's not ending up there, but there's still potential for things to get ugly. Say what you will about the Warriors, but they seem especially willing to support/consider the dynasty members in a way that I can't see other teams doing

Didn’t support/consider him enough to stop him from wanting out tho …

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

[parsnips33]

Didn’t support/consider him enough to stop him from wanting out tho …

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Warriors seemingly offered him more. 2yr 48mil extension was turned down and now he's signing for I think 3yrs 50mil

[therealbig3]

Think Klay wanted more long term security than actual per year money. Also, any chance he just wasn’t happy in GS any more? Like maybe he just didn’t get along with Green or Kerr or Curry that much at this point? Or maybe he wanted to play for a contender again?

[therealbig3]

Or maybe it’s the housing market that got to him, since we now know how expensive it is to live in the Bay Area lol, and he went to Texas because of no state income or property taxes.

[Doctor MJ]

Didn’t support/consider him enough to stop him from wanting out tho …

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Yeah, I wish Klay well, but he strikes me as someone who could really struggle in a new situation for non-basketball reasons.

I think he’s someone who GS treated with kid gloves not just because they saw his basketball potential and willingness to work, but because he’s just kind of a different dude.

Of course Kyrie is his own form of different dude, so it’s not like that can’t fundamentally work in Dallas, but Klay will be a lesser priority for all concerned there.


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[Doctor MJ]

Think Klay wanted more long term security than actual per year money. Also, any chance he just wasn’t happy in GS any more? Like maybe he just didn’t get along with Green or Kerr or Curry that much at this point? Or maybe he wanted to play for a contender again?

If that’s the only difference, then I don’t think it’s really about money so much as Klay becoming convinced that the Mavs saw a future vision that he was important to while the Warriors saw him as past his prime.

He will surely be itching to show GS how wrong they were.


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[sp6r=underrated]

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Warriors seemingly offered him more. 2yr 48mil extension was turned down and now he's signing for I think 3yrs 50mil

Even adjusting for CA taxes that's even. If so this is a nutty decision on his end. I'll admit my skepticism is due to the fact that I was always lower on him out of the GSW big 3 and that I think he has nothing left to offer.

But I hope I'm wrong.