2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[jalengreen]

Didn’t support/consider him enough to stop him from wanting out tho …

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Yes, Warriors fans love Klay immensely and always will. On the other hand, he absolutely still receives heaps of negativity from their massive fanbase (which is very invested in ensuring that Steph’s late career is maximized). It’s not like they didn’t tear into him when he put up the 0/10 stinker in the play-in game. And as we know, he’s a bit of a sensitive guy.

[parsnips33]

Well yes, of course.

Isn't there an old expression about grass being greener on the other side?

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Yes, Warriors fans love Klay immensely and always will. On the other hand, he absolutely still receives heaps of negativity from their massive fanbase (which is very invested in ensuring that Steph’s late career is maximized). It’s not like they didn’t tear into him when he put up the 0/10 stinker in the play-in game. And as we know, he’s a bit of a sensitive guy.

Yeah I was super disappointed in how parts of the fanbase started turning on Klay this past season. Very unbecoming and shortsighted

I do think the relationship between Klay and the org was really starting to sour, and I think both sides are probably at least a little relieved to just call it a day, even among a whole bunch of other conflicted feelings that naturally come with the end of a long era

[jalengreen]

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Yes, Warriors fans love Klay immensely and always will. On the other hand, he absolutely still receives heaps of negativity from their massive fanbase (which is very invested in ensuring that Steph’s late career is maximized). It’s not like they didn’t tear into him when he put up the 0/10 stinker in the play-in game. And as we know, he’s a bit of a sensitive guy.

Yeah I was super disappointed in how parts of the fanbase started turning on Klay this past season. Very unbecoming and shortsighted

I do think the relationship between Klay and the org was really starting to sour, and I think both sides are probably at least a little relieved to just call it a day, even among a whole bunch of other conflicted feelings that naturally come with the end of a long era

Yeah I think that's the part where I'd expect some regret to come up later, i.e. "I wish it didn't end on bad terms", "I wish my relationship with the organization wasn't affected" or something. I don't know how bad those bad terms were (I assume it's not *that* serious and he'll rep the Warriors when he retires), but obviously no one wants to see that sort of thing with a franchise legend, it's a lose / lose. And he certainly may regret turning down that contract. But I do think that Dallas is probably a better situation for him for the time being. Better team and a fresh start. I think he'll be fine with how that part turned out. Reports seemed to be that he ended up being more interested in Dallas than LA, fwiw.

[GSP]

The top teams in the East (BOS, NYK, PHI, MIL) can field impressive line-ups but they are all quite reliant on injury prone players to stay healthy (some more than others, though). I love parity at the top but luck when it comes to injuries and their timing may very well end up being the deciding factor as to who ultimately advances in the playoffs and that would suck.

" luck when it comes to injuries and their timing may very well end up being the deciding factor as to who ultimately advances in the playoffs"

Isnt that basically every postseason tho?

[GSP]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

Prolly top 20? I mean are we positive theyre even the best to never win in their own franchise over Lob City? Did the Kawhi Pg Clips beat any teams better than 14 Warriors whod win a title the next season altho w/ Kerr replacing Mark or 15 Spurs who were defending champs?

Best team they beat was a 20yo Luka w/ an injured 2nd option Kp and a fraud regular season Jazz team

[lessthanjake]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

I think the late 90’s Jazz, early 90’s Blazers, early 90’s Suns, mid-90’s Sonics, Durant/Westbrook Thunder, Nash Suns, and Harden-Paul Rockets were better. They’re probably in the next tier with the 80’s Bucks, Lob City Clippers, 1990’s Knicks, Shaq Magic, Dwight Magic, early 2000’s Kings, and early 2000’s Blazers. Even those though, I’m not really sure, just because we saw so little of the Kawhi/George Clippers healthy. So they proved less than those teams, but maybe still are in the same tier because I have a lingering feeling that they perhaps were actually better when healthy.

One intriguing one to think about is the Durant/Harden/Kyrie Nets. If both teams were fully healthy, were the Kawhi/George Clippers at their best better than that Nets team? Maybe?

[The-Power]

The top teams in the East (BOS, NYK, PHI, MIL) can field impressive line-ups but they are all quite reliant on injury prone players to stay healthy (some more than others, though). I love parity at the top but luck when it comes to injuries and their timing may very well end up being the deciding factor as to who ultimately advances in the playoffs and that would suck.

" luck when it comes to injuries and their timing may very well end up being the deciding factor as to who ultimately advances in the playoffs"

Isnt that basically every postseason tho?

It always plays a role but obviously more parity means more influence of injuries on the outcome. If one or two teams are ahead of the rest, they might be able to overcome an injury in the playoffs and still advance. Also, I'm not sure when was the last time that the top contenders in a conference had so many key players with serious injury concerns. The West doesn't have it to the same extent either, I'd say.

[tsherkin]

Yeah I was super disappointed in how parts of the fanbase started turning on Klay this past season. Very unbecoming and shortsighted

I do think the relationship between Klay and the org was really starting to sour, and I think both sides are probably at least a little relieved to just call it a day, even among a whole bunch of other conflicted feelings that naturally come with the end of a long era

How people talk about such a player is important, but it was worth noting that he was considerably less effective than he'd once been, so his value had shifted downward notably compared to 15-18. Acknowledging that was never wrong, but how you talk about a dude in his 30s hanging on after injuries and seeing a change in his usage pattern is (worse passing support, less corner usage, etc), of course, something to consider. Everyone knew he couldn't create much for himself, wasn't a playmaker, didn't rebound and couldn't slash all that well, it's just standing out more now that his efficiency is ebbing and the league is more efficient, so his impact his lower. And Golden State isn't a titan on D anymore for various reasons, so any kind of offensive backslide (particularly in a season riddled with injuries to the guys around Steph) becomes much more noticeable.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't how much less the Warriors offered than the Mavs but Klay needs to recognize he has a reservoir of good will in the Bay Area that won't exist in Dallas. If he plays poorly fans will dislike him in a way that never would have happened in the Bay Area.

Yes, Warriors fans love Klay immensely and always will. On the other hand, he absolutely still receives heaps of negativity from their massive fanbase (which is very invested in ensuring that Steph’s late career is maximized). It’s not like they didn’t tear into him when he put up the 0/10 stinker in the play-in game. And as we know, he’s a bit of a sensitive guy.

Yeah I was super disappointed in how parts of the fanbase started turning on Klay this past season. Very unbecoming and shortsighted

I do think the relationship between Klay and the org was really starting to sour, and I think both sides are probably at least a little relieved to just call it a day, even among a whole bunch of other conflicted feelings that naturally come with the end of a long era

Good to see some feeling along those lines. Hope that any bad feeling doesn't linger because he's one of the greatest players in Warrior history.

But it's tough when your whole thing on offense is that you can make any shot, and it's not working any more. Losing a step on defense is something that tends to make offensive success inch up that much more, but the perception when you're jacking up shots almost no one should be allowed to take, and you're missing, is that you're hijacking a possession with a good chance at success to give the ball to the opponent.

[jalengreen]

I like the Melton and Anderson adds for GSW. Interested to see if they’re able to land Lauri

[rk2023]

I like the Melton and Anderson adds for GSW. Interested to see if they’re able to land Lauri

I need him In San Antonio; I think that can be an offensively inverted and modernized version of the twin towers. The play-finishing and spacing capabilities of Lauri are really nice, and I see him being a night and day more capable version of Saric (who had some great chemistry with CP3 in GS, though there obv were a lot of other opportunity costs of playing him).

[ardee]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

Prolly top 20? I mean are we positive theyre even the best to never win in their own franchise over Lob City? Did the Kawhi Pg Clips beat any teams better than 14 Warriors whod win a title the next season altho w/ Kerr replacing Mark or 15 Spurs who were defending champs?

Best team they beat was a 20yo Luka w/ an injured 2nd option Kp and a fraud regular season Jazz team

Agreed.

The 2015 Clippers were close to a 7 SRS team with close to two top five players in the league that year in CP3 and Blake.

It was just sheer garbage luck they lost to Houston, otherwise they give GSW quite a fight in the WCF and are remembered more like the CP3-Harden Rockets imo.

[tsherkin]

I like the Melton and Anderson adds for GSW. Interested to see if they’re able to land Lauri

I need him In San Antonio; I think that can be an offensively inverted and modernized version of the twin towers. The play-finishing and spacing capabilities of Lauri are really nice, and I see him being a night and day more capable version of Saric (who had some great chemistry with CP3 in GS, though there obv were a lot of other opportunity costs of playing him).

It would be so rude if Markkanen ended up in San Antonio with Wemby.

[MartinToVaught]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

Prolly top 20? I mean are we positive theyre even the best to never win in their own franchise over Lob City? Did the Kawhi Pg Clips beat any teams better than 14 Warriors whod win a title the next season altho w/ Kerr replacing Mark or 15 Spurs who were defending champs?

Best team they beat was a 20yo Luka w/ an injured 2nd option Kp and a fraud regular season Jazz team

Agreed.

The 2015 Clippers were close to a 7 SRS team with close to two top five players in the league that year in CP3 and Blake.

It was just sheer garbage luck they lost to Houston, otherwise they give GSW quite a fight in the WCF and are remembered more like the CP3-Harden Rockets imo.

That series was painful, but let's be real now. That Blazers series where Blake and CP3 both had season-ending injuries within minutes of each other was bad luck. The Rockets collapse was not. They didn't have a major injury at the worst possible time or just lose a bunch of close games on bad bounces/calls. They were just outcoached, outplayed and outworked. I saw the meltdown coming when they got blown off the court in Game 5. CP3 was getting owned by Pablo Prigioni and Jason Terry. Both he and Doc have a track record a mile long of playoff chokejobs like this. At some point, it's not luck, it's the expected result of having them as your first option and head coach.

[Dr Positivity]

They were less fun but I think the Clippers in 21 were more of a real contender than CP teams.

[ShotCreator]

Prolly top 20? I mean are we positive theyre even the best to never win in their own franchise over Lob City? Did the Kawhi Pg Clips beat any teams better than 14 Warriors whod win a title the next season altho w/ Kerr replacing Mark or 15 Spurs who were defending champs?

Best team they beat was a 20yo Luka w/ an injured 2nd option Kp and a fraud regular season Jazz team

Agreed.

The 2015 Clippers were close to a 7 SRS team with close to two top five players in the league that year in CP3 and Blake.

It was just sheer garbage luck they lost to Houston, otherwise they give GSW quite a fight in the WCF and are remembered more like the CP3-Harden Rockets imo.

That series was painful, but let's be real now. That Blazers series where Blake and CP3 both had season-ending injuries within minutes of each other was bad luck. The Rockets collapse was not. They didn't have a major injury at the worst possible time or just lose a bunch of close games on bad bounces/calls. They were just outcoached, outplayed and outworked. I saw the meltdown coming when they got blown off the court in Game 5. CP3 was getting owned by Pablo Prigioni and Jason Terry. Both he and Doc have a track record a mile long of playoff chokejobs like this. At some point, it's not luck, it's the expected result of having them as your first option and head coach.

Jason Terry and Pablo Prigioni in Game 5:

JT: 11/4/7 55 TS%

Pablo: 0/2/3 0 TS%

Chris Paul: 22/10/2/1 69 TS%


Game 6:


JT: 7/5/7/ 44 TS%

Pablo: 0/3/3/1 0 TS%

Chris Paul: 31/11/7 65 TS%


Game 7:

JT: 4/2/1/1 29 TS%

Pablo: 4/4/3 69 TS%

Chris Paul: 26/5/10/4 57 TS%

I forgot how wrong you used to be able to be about Chris Paul's career pre-PHX because the narratives were so strong and overwhelmingly parroted.

Why not say Harden destroyed Chris Paul's soul or some ****? Pablo Prigioni and Jason Terry owning...prime Chris Paul? That's how you remember that series?


Realistically LAC had zero depth. They were super top heavy and relied on the victim of Pablo Prigioni to play their best ball on both ends. The second or third best volume creator with Curry and Harden while being a top 1% POA defender. For about 90+ games. Just to barely qualify as a contender in the stacked 2010's west.

I specifically remember Jamal Crawford being truly horrible in this era of playoff runs. But 2015 stands out.

Crawford in Game 5: 5/0/0/0 on 2/10 shooting 25 TS%

Crawford in game 6: 9/2/1/2/1 on 4/13 shooting 33 TS%

Crawford in game 7: 17/1/1 on 6/18 shooting 45 TS%

What sticks out is two things, Crawford's biggest strength was his ball handling, yet he is pretty much only having 0-1 assist games. Zero instincts as a passer from a guy who loves to dribble and shoot.

Crawford is one of the softest defenders I have ever seen and somehow in the 22-27 minutes he was getting in this stretch, he had 3, 5, and 5 fouls in games 5, 6 and 7 each. It's complete sabotage on both ends in a series where like, I said, the core 4 guys are pretty much scaling their games up to the highest it can go for as many minutes as they can play. Griffin especially. Who was terrible in 4th quarters this run because his endurance couldn't hold up at all.

Clippers best team was 2014. But they were just flat out not better than OKC. And was only in it because of Paul's heroics. They had an okay bench. But Jordan was still green compared what he'd be later, especially defensively, Collison actually self-destructed and Redick had a terrible defensive series against OKC's athleticism.

.

[eminence]

Seeya Utah.

And I may be the biggest Buddy fan on the board, so I quite appreciate what GS has done so far this offseason.

[therealbig3]

Where does the Kawhi Leonard Clippers rank among the best teams to never win a title?

I think the late 90’s Jazz, early 90’s Blazers, early 90’s Suns, mid-90’s Sonics, Durant/Westbrook Thunder, Nash Suns, and Harden-Paul Rockets were better. They’re probably in the next tier with the 80’s Bucks, Lob City Clippers, 1990’s Knicks, Shaq Magic, Dwight Magic, early 2000’s Kings, and early 2000’s Blazers. Even those though, I’m not really sure, just because we saw so little of the Kawhi/George Clippers healthy. So they proved less than those teams, but maybe still are in the same tier because I have a lingering feeling that they perhaps were actually better when healthy.

One intriguing one to think about is the Durant/Harden/Kyrie Nets. If both teams were fully healthy, were the Kawhi/George Clippers at their best better than that Nets team? Maybe?

IMO the 21 Nets fully healthy were easily the best team in the league and well on their way to a title. Unfortunately they got rocked by injuries at the worst time.

Definitely better than the Clippers.

[Colbinii]

Seeya Utah.

And I may be the biggest Buddy fan on the board, so I quite appreciate what GS has done so far this offseason.

Why you leaving Utah? You just dislike their lack of activity?

[therealbig3]

Agreed.

The 2015 Clippers were close to a 7 SRS team with close to two top five players in the league that year in CP3 and Blake.

It was just sheer garbage luck they lost to Houston, otherwise they give GSW quite a fight in the WCF and are remembered more like the CP3-Harden Rockets imo.

That series was painful, but let's be real now. That Blazers series where Blake and CP3 both had season-ending injuries within minutes of each other was bad luck. The Rockets collapse was not. They didn't have a major injury at the worst possible time or just lose a bunch of close games on bad bounces/calls. They were just outcoached, outplayed and outworked. I saw the meltdown coming when they got blown off the court in Game 5. CP3 was getting owned by Pablo Prigioni and Jason Terry. Both he and Doc have a track record a mile long of playoff chokejobs like this. At some point, it's not luck, it's the expected result of having them as your first option and head coach.

Jason Terry and Pablo Prigioni in Game 5:

JT: 11/4/7 55 TS%

Pablo: 0/2/3 0 TS%

Chris Paul: 22/10/2/1 69 TS%


Game 6:


JT: 7/5/7/ 44 TS%

Pablo: 0/3/3/1 0 TS%

Chris Paul: 31/11/7 65 TS%


Game 7:

JT: 4/2/1/1 29 TS%

Pablo: 4/4/3 69 TS%

Chris Paul: 26/5/10/4 57 TS%

I forgot how wrong you used to be able to be about Chris Paul's career pre-PHX because the narratives were so strong and overwhelmingly parroted.

Why not say Harden destroyed Chris Paul's soul or some ****? Pablo Prigioni and Jason Terry owning...prime Chris Paul? That's how you remember that series?


Realistically LAC had zero depth. They were super top heavy and relied on the victim of Pablo Prigioni to play their best ball on both ends. The second or third best volume creator with Curry and Harden while being a top 1% POA defender. For about 90+ games. Just to barely qualify as a contender in the stacked 2010's west.

I specifically remember Jamal Crawford being truly horrible in this era of playoff runs. But 2015 stands out.

Crawford in Game 5: 5/0/0/0 on 2/10 shooting 25 TS%

Crawford in game 6: 9/2/1/2/1 on 4/13 shooting 33 TS%

Crawford in game 7: 17/1/1 on 6/18 shooting 45 TS%

What sticks out is two things, Crawford's biggest strength was his ball handling, yet he is pretty much only having 0-1 assist games. Zero instincts as a passer from a guy who loves to dribble and shoot.

Crawford is one of the softest defenders I have ever seen and somehow in the 22-27 minutes he was getting in this stretch, he had 3, 5, and 5 fouls in games 5, 6 and 7 each. It's complete sabotage on both ends in a series where like, I said, the core 4 guys are pretty much scaling their games up to the highest it can go for as many minutes as they can play. Griffin especially. Who was terrible in 4th quarters this run because his endurance couldn't hold up at all.

Clippers best team was 2014. But they were just flat out not better than OKC. And was only in it because of Paul's heroics. They had an okay bench. But Jordan was still green compared what he'd be later, especially defensively, Collison actually self-destructed and Redick had a terrible defensive series against OKC's athleticism.

.

CP3 putting up garbage time numbers without actually impacting the bottom line result in blowout losses, and ending up with a pretty stat line that in no way captures how passive and invisible he tends to play when A. the other team is making a run or B. it's an elimination game is so Chris Paul.

He didn't get owned by Prigioni or Terry, but that 2015 collapse is pretty bad. Especially since it was Harden and Houston that they blew the lead to.