How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's?

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

B-Mitch 30
Sophomore
Posts: 156
And1: 75
Joined: May 25, 2024
         

How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#1 » by B-Mitch 30 » Tue Jul 2, 2024 2:01 am

The starters in question:

PG - 1989-1990 Derek Harper
SG - 1985-1986 Alvin Robertson
SF - 2003-2004 Andrei Kirilenko
PF - 1991-1992 Larry Nance Sr.
C - 2001-2002 Dikembe Mutombo

Obviously this kind of scenario requires a lot of assumptions, but let's say this team replaces the Mavericks during this period, and is decently coached and has average to above average bench players. In addition, the rosters of every other team in the league magically stay the same. Could a team with this construction win 50+ games? Would it be able to beat the western powerhouses in the playoffs, or even the Bulls in the Finals?
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,130
And1: 5,973
Joined: Jul 24, 2022

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#2 » by AEnigma » Tue Jul 2, 2024 3:16 am

That looks like a significantly improved version of the Hawks or Knicks, and both were regular 50-win teams.

I have serious postseason concerns without an especially capable lead scorer, but in the regular season that team would win plenty of games, and they have enough talent to at least reach the semifinals even with an unreliable postseason offence.
Owly
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,614
And1: 3,132
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#3 » by Owly » Tue Jul 2, 2024 4:26 pm

No team only plays 5 guys. Either there are substantial fatigue problems if that is the intent here, or else the bench matters.

That said ... this is a great team. It's 5 all-star-ish or pretty near guys.
Harper never quite made it but complements a good boxscore with a strong defensive rep to be one of the high end never an all star points.
Robertson ..., though he was a 4 time all-star, I like less. Feel the defense is a bit gamble heavy. But if ever there was a back line to allow for some risk taking ... Kirilenko, Nance, Mutombo is a pretty good one. And it is one his clear strongest production years (degree varies depending on metric of choice).
Mutombo is sliding in terms of production and even impact (at least raw on-off) though the latter is still very strong.
I really like Nance and Kirilenko. Maybe some would argue with the fit ... idk.

Without a close look at fit or knowing bench or coaching ... having that many quality player-minutes gives you very good chance at being very good and some leeway for individuals under-performing in a given series.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 91,571
And1: 31,214
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#4 » by tsherkin » Tue Jul 2, 2024 5:20 pm

AEnigma wrote:That looks like a significantly improved version of the Hawks or Knicks, and both were regular 50-win teams.

I have serious postseason concerns without an especially capable lead scorer, but in the regular season that team would win plenty of games, and they have enough talent to at least reach the semifinals even with an unreliable postseason offence.


That's about how I view this. Defensive titan which looks great in the RS, then ultimately loses to a team which combines high-end ball on both ends. That team looks like it would itself struggle a lot against quality defense. You throw them versus the 94 Knicks and you get one of the uglier series in league history, and it would be interesting to see who won (probably this team). But like, against Chicago or Utah, I'd be more inclined to bet on the teams which actually put out a good offense.
ShotCreator
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,807
And1: 2,525
Joined: May 18, 2014
Location: CF
     

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#5 » by ShotCreator » Tue Jul 2, 2024 6:37 pm

Am I crazy or is this not even a bad offense? They have 4 good offensive players. Kirilenko was a top offensive forward in the league. He was actually better offensively than defensively by RAPM.

They kill everything in sight. Way too much offense with the defense.

But even purely defensively you are looking at like a -8 or so defense. Maybe -10. If they're even average on offense they'd still be a 65 win type team with decent late game execution.

Nance, AK, Harper and Robertson were all two-way guys. This is a roided version of the current Celtics core to me.
Swinging for the fences.
Owly
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,614
And1: 3,132
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#6 » by Owly » Tue Jul 2, 2024 6:53 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Am I crazy or is this not even a bad offense? They have 4 good offensive players. Kirilenko was a top offensive forward in the league. He was actually better offensively than defensively by RAPM.

They kill everything in sight. Way too much offense with the defense.

But even purely defensively you are looking at like a -8 or so defense. Maybe -10. If they're even average on offense they'd still be a 65 win type team with decent late game execution.

Nance, AK, Harper and Robertson were all two-way guys. This is a roided version of the current Celtics core to me.

Oh this isn't a "bad" offense.

I think the criticism has been with regard to creation. And summing their usage from the years cited it's 99. Which is less than you'd expect from a starting lineup (some guys will take greater primacy in other lineups, and even if they didn't these guys don't quite get to 100 though though that fifth of one percent once split between them isn't much) never mind one filled with all-star adjacent quality players. How costly one thinks that is, quality of bench, who you are picturing as their opponents ... are up for grabs.

But yeah there's lots of offensive things to like. AK's movement and passing, Nance's late career shooting range and turnover economy. A lot guys on the offensive glass and running (and the team's ability to create live ball opportunities for transition).
AEnigma
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,130
And1: 5,973
Joined: Jul 24, 2022

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#7 » by AEnigma » Tue Jul 2, 2024 7:17 pm

It is a good regular season offence. Agree they would be strong in transition (somewhat mitigated in the 1990s compared to what the team might do in the 1980s). However, they do not have particularly good shooting and I do not think they are well-equipped in the half-court against reasonably equipped defences. It reminds me a lot of the Payton Sonics in the sense they have several decent offensive pieces but are likely to find themselves struggling against tougher defensive matchups. None of these guys is as good as Chauncey Billups or Rip Hamilton (or Isiah Thomas) in a half-court setting, and I think the Pistons are about as “bad” a title-winning offence as you can find.

The team’s defence could be good enough that those offensive struggles do not matter, but I think that applies better to the 1999-2004 NBA. In the 1990s, this team will still be capped in how effectively it can defend elite postseason scorers like Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Reggie, and Barkley.
lessthanjake
Analyst
Posts: 3,050
And1: 2,798
Joined: Apr 13, 2013

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#8 » by lessthanjake » Tue Jul 2, 2024 9:47 pm

I think this would be the classic ~60 win team that loses in the second round or conference finals because they don’t really have someone who can break down a really good playoff defense. But there’s a chance that they’re so good defensively that they’re more like the 2004 Pistons.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
B-Mitch 30
Sophomore
Posts: 156
And1: 75
Joined: May 25, 2024
         

Re: How many games and/or playoff series would a team of defense-oriented starters like this win in the mid 90's? 

Post#9 » by B-Mitch 30 » Wed Jul 3, 2024 2:00 pm

I should mention my idea for this post came when I was creating a personal "all-time defensive team". Obviously none of these guys except for maybe Robertson are considered the best defenders at their position, so a big criteria was that they had to be efficient scorers, but not over 20 PPG.

Return to Player Comparisons