Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[LakerLegend]

Kawhi says Kobe is better than LeBron so...

Watch on YouTube

[WarriorGM]

The open question with Kawhi is "Can he lead a bad team to the playoffs?" The opportunity hasn't really come up.

[MavsDirk41]

We're discussing peaks here. Why are you talking career averages?

Peak vs Peak they topped out at 39 points per 100 in the playoffs while Leonard was 6% over league TS% in that post season to Kobe's +3%.

To me a peak is at least 3 seasons. Lets look at Leonard. He only has 2 seasons in his entire career where he has played 70 plus games:

15/16 and 16/17
During these two years he averaged 23/6/3 on crazy high efficiency. He was top 5 in mvp voting both years and 1st team all defense.

Kobe has a 5 year peak from 05/06 to 09/10 where he was arguably the best player in the league or top 3 at least. He put up 30/6/5 during these 5 seasons while winning an mvp and being top 5 in voting the other 4 years. Kobe was also 1st team all defense these years as well.

The problem with Leonard has always been durability. Dude cant play 60 out of 82 games and we say he had a great season. Kobe all day and i didnt even like the guy.

That's like saying you climbed Everest and got to all 5 peaks of the mountain. No...you got to the peak, the highest point!

You're discussing their prime.

Kobe had a greater prime and peak than Leonard

[lambchop]

I'm taking 16/17 Kawhi over any kobe season. However, Kobe's prime is far more impressive to me due to durability and sustained performance, despite also having numerous injury woes.

[maradro]

i was bored enough to look this up

if peak is one year, ok lets look up some single season combined RS+playoff stats all time leader board:

kobe
2008 2956 points 636 reb 558 ast 17.03 WS 8.35 VORP
2009 2896 points 552 reb 525 ast 17.34 WS 8.54 VORP

kawhi
2019 2328 points 657 reb 315 ast 14.5 WS 7.56 VORP
2017 2220 points 523 reb 293 ast 16.41 WS 8.82 VORP

seems like a pretty good statistical argument for kobe, this is what they actually produced in one year for their team, even if kawhi's per minute production is better it is significantly lower over the course of a whole season. kobe has 8 seasons all time ranging from 22nd-238th, kawhi's best season he is 225th. that obviously doesnt speak to prime but it does show that leonards "prime" seasons are just not comparable to the load other star players he is often compared to carry.

[dhsilv2]

To me a peak is at least 3 seasons. Lets look at Leonard. He only has 2 seasons in his entire career where he has played 70 plus games:

15/16 and 16/17
During these two years he averaged 23/6/3 on crazy high efficiency. He was top 5 in mvp voting both years and 1st team all defense.

Kobe has a 5 year peak from 05/06 to 09/10 where he was arguably the best player in the league or top 3 at least. He put up 30/6/5 during these 5 seasons while winning an mvp and being top 5 in voting the other 4 years. Kobe was also 1st team all defense these years as well.

The problem with Leonard has always been durability. Dude cant play 60 out of 82 games and we say he had a great season. Kobe all day and i didnt even like the guy.

That's like saying you climbed Everest and got to all 5 peaks of the mountain. No...you got to the peak, the highest point!

You're discussing their prime.

Kobe had a greater prime and peak than Leonard

Prime without a doubt. peak...I think that's a hard case to make.

[dhsilv2]

The open question with Kawhi is "Can he lead a bad team to the playoffs?" The opportunity hasn't really come up.

in the context of this question, it never will. But we can say the same about guys like Bird and Magic too.

[WarriorGM]

The open question with Kawhi is "Can he lead a bad team to the playoffs?" The opportunity hasn't really come up.

in the context of this question, it never will. But we can say the same about guys like Bird and Magic too.

Bird I think answered this question his first year when he led a team that had a 29-win record the previous year to 61 wins. 1996 probably does the same for Magic if any of the earlier years post-Kareem are still considered to be above average supporting casts. Then again that's one reason why I'm iffier on Magic despite his impressive record in comparison to other greats.

[dhsilv2]

The open question with Kawhi is "Can he lead a bad team to the playoffs?" The opportunity hasn't really come up.

in the context of this question, it never will. But we can say the same about guys like Bird and Magic too.

Bird I think answered this question his first year when he led a team that had a 29-win record the previous year to 61 wins. 1996 probably does the same for Magic if any of the earlier years post-Kareem are still considered to be above average supporting casts. Then again that's one reason why I'm iffier on Magic despite his impressive record in comparison to other greats.

96? The year magic started 9 whole games?

And I figured you might bring up Bird's rookie year but I mean Tiny went from legit worst starter in the league to a questionable allstar but a really decent point guard. That change ALONE was 5 games. ML Carr was a big upgrade as well. Maxwell being a year older. Oh and not playing Jo Jo White anymore...he was just god awful. Same with Curtis Rowe, who was out of the league when Bird came on but played 1,400 minutes.

And Adding a first team all nba player to nearly any team for completely free is going to be a huge spike.

There's jut no world where adding a hall guy on a rotation of Maxwell, Archibald, Ford, Carr, Cowens, and Robey is a bad team.

This is just the classic example where playing bad or terrible players can make your team as much worse as an allstar can make it better. The team had 5 guys with negative VORPs with 1k minutes in 79. Tiny is the only one to return and remember he missed 78 with an achilleas. We all know that injury take a year to bounce back from if you ever do. So yeah, Bird was awesome, but the Celtics dumped some massive massive dead weight.

[FarBeyondDriven]

why does realgm get every poll wrong? Every time I see a poll and vote I'll know realgm will vote the other way and be dead wrong.

[LaLover11]

Kawhi would win a 1 vs 1 game to 21

Loser ball

1's and 2's

[SA37]

The open question with Kawhi is "Can he lead a bad team to the playoffs?" The opportunity hasn't really come up.

I'd go a step further and say one of the things Kawhi will never have to deal with is the negativity of having played full seasons while his teams struggled to make the playoffs/were knocked out early in the playoffs because he's been perennially injured for the last ~5 seasons + he's been on "super teams" the majority of his career.

What he would have/could have done is all conjecture, whereas with guys like Kobe, we have the evidence.

[SonicMcMahon]

Kawhi by a lot.

Sixers fans know. (And they faced both guys in big playoff series)

[Jedi32]

i was bored enough to look this up

if peak is one year, ok lets look up some single season combined RS+playoff stats all time leader board:

kobe
2008 2956 points 636 reb 558 ast 17.03 WS 8.35 VORP
2009 2896 points 552 reb 525 ast 17.34 WS 8.54 VORP

kawhi
2019 2328 points 657 reb 315 ast 14.5 WS 7.56 VORP
2017 2220 points 523 reb 293 ast 16.41 WS 8.82 VORP

seems like a pretty good statistical argument for kobe, this is what they actually produced in one year for their team, even if kawhi's per minute production is better it is significantly lower over the course of a whole season. kobe has 8 seasons all time ranging from 22nd-238th, kawhi's best season he is 225th. that obviously doesnt speak to prime but it does show that leonards "prime" seasons are just not comparable to the load other star players he is often compared to carry.

Thread

[One_and_Done]

The general board got this right. Kawhi fo sho.

[165bows]

The open question with Kawhi is "Can he lead a bad team to the playoffs?" The opportunity hasn't really come up.

in the context of this question, it never will. But we can say the same about guys like Bird and Magic too.

Bird I think answered this question his first year when he led a team that had a 29-win record the previous year to 61 wins. 1996 probably does the same for Magic if any of the earlier years post-Kareem are still considered to be above average supporting casts. Then again that's one reason why I'm iffier on Magic despite his impressive record in comparison to other greats.

Ah history.

Actually heard some interesting criticism of Kareem, basically saying that his teams without other all time greats (Robertson or Magic) were pretty darn ordinary.

[RalphWiggum]

It's close but peak Kawhi gives you a better shot to win.

[TheAlchemist]

So some questions to further quantify:

1. Are we considering health? Or is all else equal? I’m sure Kobe had a legendary season health wise, so that goes to Kobe.

2. Playoff dominance? Kawhi. 2019 was Michael Jordan tier I’ve never seen until this day. I seen Luka have great games. Jokic destroy. Giannis dominate.

But Kawhi Leonard? He would get triple teamed. He was injured and laid it all out. I’ve never seen a player play like that, except MAYBE, Lebron vs Pistons(amazing to watch).

Defensively? We’d have to go back when Spurs beat Miami. Kawhi shut Lebron down. Kobe has great defense though.


Overall career of course you gotta give it to the Black Mamba. BUT, Peak one playoffs? Kawhi.

[thamadkant]

Kawhi is one of my faves and I hated Kobe... but peak vs peak. Kawhi takes smarter shots, but Kobe is no doubt the more gifted scorer and selfish. Defensively Kawhi for sure. But I've never seem Kawhi be the main player on a bad team and make it work or the team respectable.
Kobe as much as he is a hog, was better leader and he's far from a good example of a good leader.

[One_and_Done]

It's close but peak Kawhi gives you a better shot to win.

It's really not that close tbh. Kawhi is better on both ends.