Sixers Offseason Thread Part 4

[Arsenal]

It's possible Oubre can't be traded without his consent per Article VII, Section 8(b):

A player ... with a one-year Contract (excluding any Option Year) who would be a Qualifying Veteran Free Agent or an Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent upon completing the playing services called for under his Contract cannot be traded without the player’s consent; provided, however, that ... the player and Team may agree at the time of signing such Contract that the player’s right to consent to a trade ... shall be eliminated.

I believe Oubre would be an Early Qualifying Vet after this year, so this provision should apply to him. Obviously, we don't know whether Oubre agreed to waive this provision at signing.

Pretty sure he wouldn't be an Early Qualifying Vet. It would be his second year with the team, but I think they waived his bird rights (they needed to get rid of his cap hold to get the space to do everything else) since they signed him with an exception.

The downside of that being I don't think they will have his early bird rights next offseason.

Pretty sure he would be - scroll down to Salary Cap Exceptions:

https://www.nba.com/news/free-agency-explained

[HotelVitale]

Thanks, So do they sign him to the balloon contract before camp?

My point I guess is how does KJ start the season without a contract? Does he stay off the roster until january? It doesn't make sense to me. Surely he must be signed before the season starts, right? Can the Sixers then give him a new contract in January?

The Sixers will sign him before camp. They can't keep him in limbo until January.

January is when the contract KJ signs in the off season can be traded by the Sixers without incurring the hardcap.

Probably. I'm not 100% convinced ownership wants to do this--it's a lot of lux tax $--so they might need more persuasion, but otherwise there's no particular reason to wait on it.

Are some people thinking he wouldn't be signed until a deal has been arranged? I'm not sure that's possible--would he still be eligible for a trade in Dec if we didn't sign him until then?--but even if it is they'd have to at least guarantee him like $5m or so under the table to make it worth his while not to sign a minimum or something somewhere else. Also he is a useful enough depth piece so no reason not to have him on deck for the first part of the season.

[Sixerscan]

It's possible Oubre can't be traded without his consent per Article VII, Section 8(b):



I believe Oubre would be an Early Qualifying Vet after this year, so this provision should apply to him. Obviously, we don't know whether Oubre agreed to waive this provision at signing.

Pretty sure he wouldn't be an Early Qualifying Vet. It would be his second year with the team, but I think they waived his bird rights (they needed to get rid of his cap hold to get the space to do everything else) since they signed him with an exception.

The downside of that being I don't think they will have his early bird rights next offseason.

I don't think waiving the rights matter:

“Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent” means a Veteran Free Agent who, prior to becoming a Veteran Free Agent, played under one (1) or more Player Contracts covering some or all of each of the two (2) preceding Seasons, and who either played exclusively with his Prior Team during such two (2) Seasons, or, if he played for more than one (1) Team during such period, changed Teams only (i) by means of trade, (ii) by means of assignment via the NBA’s waiver procedures, or (iii) by signing with his Prior Team during the first of the two (2) Seasons.

I thought there was some other provision that said if you waive his rights to use cap space it starts over even if you sign him with an exception. Pretty sure Ennis signed for more than the minimum in 2019 because of this. Could be wrong/can't look it up right now though.

[Black Mage]

I would say true, but at the same time, it's almost unfeasible/unreasonable to think the team could support another huge contract/max or near max player unless you think that somehow a 4 star, 10 players on minimum contracts model would somehow work, but I'm pretty sure that's never happened or won anything even if did. You need mid level salary role players for any team to succeed and any reasonably paid player worth trading for in this scenario would almost never hit the market or would handicap the team with the addition of draft picks until the end of time in order to acquire.

If it doesn't make sense then we won't trade them. Besides, the team that just won the title has 4 guys making over $30m/yr. So it is possible to take that approach if it makes sense.

The point is we have optionality to go either way. Which is a good thing, not a bad thing like you seem to think.

It does NOW, but last season they still had Derrick White and Horford on mid-level salary type deals. 4 guys on $30M/yr is far different from what we would have is 2 guys at $50M, and 1 at $35. The 4 guys @ 30 still left room in the cap for the Celtics to actually have mid-salary players on the team that the Sixers adding another $30m+ wouldn't. Unfortunately, the salary cap didn't increase THAT much. I never said that Oubre or Caleb were untradeable, I'm just saying that we need to be hoping that they basically playing like they basically are.

Could you at least read this thread or do some of your own research before going off on this useless discussion?

KJ Martin cannot be signed to a 30+ mil balloon. His deal must still fit within the aprons and it's been posted here and at large in cap expert tweets that as it stands the amount is likely going to be under 20 mil per season.

Second, the whole point of these boards is to discuss what the team might do or who they might target. To date, the majority of the discussion here hasn't been wild "what if's" but an analysis of the league with what teams, under cap constraints or who are highly likely in rebuild/Cooper Flagg tank mode, might do and is there a piece on that team that fits for us.

[NearingZero]

Pretty sure he wouldn't be an Early Qualifying Vet. It would be his second year with the team, but I think they waived his bird rights (they needed to get rid of his cap hold to get the space to do everything else) since they signed him with an exception.

The downside of that being I don't think they will have his early bird rights next offseason.

I don't think waiving the rights matter:

“Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agent” means a Veteran Free Agent who, prior to becoming a Veteran Free Agent, played under one (1) or more Player Contracts covering some or all of each of the two (2) preceding Seasons, and who either played exclusively with his Prior Team during such two (2) Seasons, or, if he played for more than one (1) Team during such period, changed Teams only (i) by means of trade, (ii) by means of assignment via the NBA’s waiver procedures, or (iii) by signing with his Prior Team during the first of the two (2) Seasons.

I thought there was some other provision that said if you waive his rights to use cap space it starts over even if you sign him with an exception. Pretty sure Ennis signed for more than the minimum in 2019 because of this. Could be wrong/can't look it up right now though.

Searching the CBA for every instance of "renounce" doesn't find anything to back that up. Of course, there could be some provision with slightly different wording that applies.

[ckchen]

If it doesn't make sense then we won't trade them. Besides, the team that just won the title has 4 guys making over $30m/yr. So it is possible to take that approach if it makes sense.

The point is we have optionality to go either way. Which is a good thing, not a bad thing like you seem to think.

It does NOW, but last season they still had Derrick White and Horford on mid-level salary type deals. 4 guys on $30M/yr is far different from what we would have is 2 guys at $50M, and 1 at $35. The 4 guys @ 30 still left room in the cap for the Celtics to actually have mid-salary players on the team that the Sixers adding another $30m+ wouldn't. Unfortunately, the salary cap didn't increase THAT much. I never said that Oubre or Caleb were untradeable, I'm just saying that we need to be hoping that they basically playing like they basically are.

Could you at least read this thread or do some of your own research before going off on this useless discussion?

KJ Martin cannot be signed to a 30+ mil balloon. His deal must still fit within the aprons and it's been posted here and at large in cap expert tweets that as it stands the amount is likely going to be under 20 mil per season.

Second, the whole point of these boards is to discuss what the team might do or who they might target. To date, the majority of the discussion here hasn't been wild "what if's" but an analysis of the league with what teams, under cap constraints or who are highly likely in rebuild/Cooper Flagg tank mode, might do and is there a piece on that team that fits for us.

I am reading the thread, but maybe you aren't. Because this was about considering Oubre and Caleb Martin as tradable contracts and how trying to include them into a trade for a max/near max. Nobody ever said anything about signing KJ to a 30+ balloon deal, literally have no clue what you're talking about. I guess practice what you preach before you go off accusing others of not reading.

[NearingZero]

Spotrac now has Drummond with a player option in yr 2 as well. Hopefully, that'll end up a non-issue.

[ckchen]

Side note: the level of hostility/condescension I'm getting for having even a slightly differing opinion is kind of reaffirming why I stepped away from the board for so long. Not here trolling or asking nonsensical questions but you would think i am from the type of responses.

[FireMorey]

Caleb Martin got #16 from Council, it appears. He must have struck a deal with him. A box of Crumbl Cookies perhaps?

[fkd215]

Speaking of Caleb Martin, we have Danny Ainge entirely to thank for him. If Ainge hadn't gotten clever with Paul Reed's contract, we wouldn't have been able to waive him and use that money for Martin. So thank you, Danny Ainge, for outsmarting yourself.

[Negrodamus]

Read on Twitter

The continuity of having Oubre back is going to be huge.

[Stanford]

Oubre rocks. Imagine thinking this guy is a malcontent.

[NearingZero]

Read on Twitter

The continuity of having Oubre back is going to be huge.

I certainly hope so. I also hope he's serious about All-Defensive being a goal. If he can dedicate himself to that and shoot respectably from deep, he could stick around long-term.

For fun, here's what the next 3 years could look like if Oubre & Drummond opt out next year but re-sign to multi-year deals:



(Yes, I'm a big nerd)

[Arsenal]

Just gotta get Oubre up to 36% 3PT this year on volume. With the gravity of the Big 3 it should be possible.

[Arsenal]

Read on Twitter

The continuity of having Oubre back is going to be huge.

I certainly hope so. I also hope he's serious about All-Defensive being a goal. If he can dedicate himself to that and shoot respectably from deep, he could stick around long-term.

For fun, here's what the next 3 years could look like if Oubre & Drummond opt out next year but re-sign to multi-year deals:



(Yes, I'm a big nerd)

A *real* nerd wouldn't forget to include Eric Gordon's vet min. J/K bro good work. Throw KMart in there at $15m also while you're at it.

[youngcrev]

Read on Twitter

The continuity of having Oubre back is going to be huge.

I certainly hope so. I also hope he's serious about All-Defensive being a goal. If he can dedicate himself to that and shoot respectably from deep, he could stick around long-term.

For fun, here's what the next 3 years could look like if Oubre & Drummond opt out next year but re-sign to multi-year deals:



(Yes, I'm a big nerd)

We're all plotting on how Morey can use a KJ balloon payment to trade for someone and staying under the 2nd apron, while Sixers ownership is actually plotting out way to stay under the tax (UDFAs have lower minimums...)

[NearingZero]

For fun, here's what the next 3 years could look like if Oubre & Drummond opt out next year but re-sign to multi-year deals:



(Yes, I'm a big nerd)

A *real* nerd wouldn't forget to include Eric Gordon's vet min. J/K bro good work. Throw KMart in there at $15m also while you're at it.

The KJ trade slot is line 14. Ideally, you find a guy under control for 3 years that fits into the 2nd apron space each year. I still think you need a bit of buffer, so $8-10M would be my target.

Seems unlikely the Bulls would trade Jalen Smith this year, but his contract would slot in perfectly. Slo Mo would be a more realistic possibility if the Warriors struggle.

Edit: also, this assumes Oubre get his full 175% via Early-Bird rights. The NTMLE will be slightly above that amount, so he may have some leverage to get that full amount. But hopefully he takes less (or just opts in).

[ProcessDoctor]

Read on Twitter

The continuity of having Oubre back is going to be huge.

I certainly hope so. I also hope he's serious about All-Defensive being a goal. If he can dedicate himself to that and shoot respectably from deep, he could stick around long-term.

For fun, here's what the next 3 years could look like if Oubre & Drummond opt out next year but re-sign to multi-year deals:



(Yes, I'm a big nerd)

Dude I love this. Keep it up!

[MikRay]

Read on Twitter

The continuity of having Oubre back is going to be huge.

I liked him more than I thought I would last year

Nice player

[76thBearCub]

Thanks, So do they sign him to the balloon contract before camp?

Yes, but it's not about KJ at all. His contract is a place holder. This new cba is wild.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything really new about what they're potentially doing with KJ?

He has a very small cap hold because he was on a minimum contract, they have full bird rights on him because he's been signed for 3+ years, so he counts for a small number against the cap and they can go over the cap to sign him.

All of that stuff has been around for decades at this point. It's basically the same thing they did with Maxey or Tobias or Iguodala only it's with an intent to use his salary to match salary coming in in a trade.

I remember people saying they should have done something similar with TJ 5 years ago.

The only part that's new is more secondary stuff such as the salary will have to be higher than the money coming in in a trade or you're hard capped at the first apron.

The CBA is complicated but it's also been complicated for a few long time. Heck this website became famous because 20+ years ago it had the first well-known trade machine that let you figure out how to match salaries.

Nothing remarkable about the KJ situation I agree. At one time I felt like I understood the cba fairly well but that's going back years and years. Admittedly I haven't really been following along since. But from then to now it's gotten a lot more complicated